Bert is very lame.

[Patterdale]

@SO1 it sounds like a really difficult situation. I hope and think that it will be resolved by shoeing him as your vet and farrier have said. This is the most simple and obvious remedy and it is definitely right to try the simple things first.

I think you are in a situation where it’s hard to see the wood for the trees, as there are so many extra ideas/inputs being thrown at you which are not really helpful, and which must increase the stress tenfold.

Your vet has said to shoe him. Your farrier agrees. They have seen and examined him repeatedly so I think you need to trust them.
Does the farrier think it’s laminitis? If not, then I personally would not be treating as laminitis. If the farrier says not lami, then I would give up all the faffing with muzzles in early March, which is quite extreme for a pony with no history.

Be guided by the professionals who are seeing him. And until you have followed their prescribed treatment plan, try not to get clouded by all the additional input.

I really hope that you get to enjoy your pony soon! Brighter days are coming, ten to one he will be sound after shoeing and you can crack on. Get him out trotting on hacks for hours in the sunshine and the weight will soon come off.

Things will get better!

 

[SO1]

But the pony has been lame since October. And nerve blocks/ x-rays are not expensive or invasive, they’re a vital tool in pinpointing problems. The vet has no idea if this lameness is actually coming from the foot.

I have 5 horses all living out unshod and have done for years…. I’ve never had one lame due to the wet. The hoof must be seriously compromised, especially if the pony has never worn shoes so you can’t even blame shoe-related compromise. I'd want x-rays.

He had x rays as part of the PPE done by my vet. But obviously something could have changed since I got him in August.

I am hoping I might be able to speak to phyiso today. I am in the office waiting for a delivery of computers and to sign invoices. We also have a problem with the CCTV camera alarm going off which is very annoying which needs to be dealt with and I probably need to wait for someone from alarm company to come to deal with that but no zoom calls today.

 

[Patterdale]

I would agree with you, if we weren't, quite unbelievably, still in the situation where most vets think working horses should be wearing shoes. And if their first port of call for weak feet wasn't to shoe them instead of trying to sort out why they are weak.

Well let’s be honest, in most cases they are not ‘weak’ for what they were intended for, ie walking slowly over long distances of varied terrain. They are ‘weak’ for what we want them to do.
We ask artificial things of horses, and shoes help them cope with that. Yes, some horses are born with stronger feet and they cope fine without. Most don’t and that’s why, for thousands of years, they’ve been shod.

There’s nothing wrong with the feet of these horses….IF they were living in herds on large areas.

They’re not. Which is why they need extra protection.

 

[SO1]

@SO1 it sounds like a really difficult situation. I hope and think that it will be resolved by shoeing him as your vet and farrier have said. This is the most simple and obvious remedy and it is definitely right to try the simple things first.

I think you are in a situation where it’s hard to see the wood for the trees, as there are so many extra ideas/inputs being thrown at you which are not really helpful, and which must increase the stress tenfold.

Your vet has said to shoe him. Your farrier agrees. They have seen and examined him repeatedly so I think you need to trust them.
Does the farrier think it’s laminitis? If not, then I personally would not be treating as laminitis. If the farrier says not lami, then I would give up all the faffing with muzzles in early March, which is quite extreme for a pony with no history.

Be guided by the professionals who are seeing him. And until you have followed their prescribed treatment plan, try not to get clouded by all the additional input.

I really hope that you get to enjoy your pony soon! Brighter days are coming, ten to one he will be sound after shoeing and you can crack on. Get him out trotting on hacks for hours in the sunshine and the weight will soon come off.

Things will get better!

Farrier when he last came said no signs of laminitis just said his hooves were washed out and he would really feel any stones. I have been unable to speak to the farrier to understand what he means.

His PPE noted poor hoof balance on his fronts and mild flare on Xray needing good farriery. Vet said hoof balance looks much better and has reviewed the X rays he took when vetting them and does not think this problem is related to this.

Vet is actually very pro barefoot and said he would normally recommend unshod but in this case he thinks better to try shoes on front. Mainly because he needs to be in work for weight control and also he thinks the problem with stifles was caused by slipping in the field and shoes have more traction.

The CCTV alarm in the office is very annoying I think difficult to concentrate on work. I think I will send the FO to work from home after I have signed off invoices. One of us needs to stay for the computer delivery so unfortunately we can't both go home.

 

[ycbm]

Well let’s be honest, in most cases they are not ‘weak’ for what they were intended for, ie walking slowly over long distances of varied terrain. They are ‘weak’ for what we want them to do.
We ask artificial things of horses, and shoes help them cope with that. Yes, some horses are born with stronger feet and they cope fine without. Most don’t and that’s why, for thousands of years, they’ve been shod.

There’s nothing wrong with the feet of these horses….IF they were living in herds on large areas.

They’re not. Which is why they need extra protection.

”Most don't"?

ALL of mine did.

Shod for thousands of years?

They were shod because they were required as war, transport and agricultural machines and shoeing allows for feet to function in sub optimal conditions.

 

[SO1]

I have just been told the computers should arrive at the office by 9pm and there is nothing that can be done about the CCTV alarm today so I am going to have to listern to that beeping all day very difficult to concentrate on work.

 

[#jackofallmasterofnone]

Farrier and vet have recommended a set of front shoes … a month ago. Did the farrier request sedation to put a set of fronts on? Seems this has caused stress and delay.

I empathise with your work / life situation mine is similar and I have mine on full livery for this reason but I trust my yard owner, my farrier and my vet and if something needs doing it’s not on me to coordinate or manage the yards staff …

My yard owner is my conduit and perfectly capable and placed to relay any information about farrier or vet visits … that’s what I’m paying for. My personal need to micromanage and oversee those aspects of care has to take a back seat if the result would be that my horse will be delayed in receiving the care due to my time limitations.

Yes there are times when I feel guilty that I can’t always be the one on the end of the lead rope with him but it is what it is for now and I have surrounded myself and him with people I trust implicitly so I have to lean on that trust and let go a little.

I lost my heart horse to colic - it was sudden and he was young … we were by no means finished so for the first year or so everything that happened with my current guy sort of brought back that feeling of pending catastrophe and doom. It’s fading. So I think you can either adjust your expectations around what ownership means right now in your current work / life situation or you can’t and that is what it will boil down to.

 

[ycbm]

SO1, I'm sorry I can't offer any constructive suggestions, and I'm so sorry that owning Bert is turning out to be such a worry for you. I hope things come right as the ground dries up.
.

 

[Patterdale]

Farrier when he last came said no signs of laminitis just said his hooves were washed out and he would really feel any stones. I have been unable to speak to the farrier to understand what he means.

Then I would forget the muzzle and not treat as laminitis, which should halve your stress. If a vet AND farrier who have both been hands on with this pony state that it is NOT laminitis and IS soft feet due to wet, then I don’t think you need to factor laminitis in do you.

Get the shoes on, get him out trotting up hills and just enjoy him. There is far too much needless stress and questioning happening here, you have an answer so stop looking for more problems. In the nicest possible way!!

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I'm baffled as to why a vet who has seen a pony multiple times for a lameness that isn't resolving isn't recommending further investigation?! Nerve blocks to prove it's in the foot and then x-rays as a minimum.

I am also wondering why the pony, whose lameness could be as a result of an ill- fitting saddle is still being ridden in that saddle, especially when several alternatives have been suggested.

Eta, I wouldn't shoe this pony if I could avoid it. I would try the 'cement' that endurance riders sometimes use, first.

 

[SO1]

I am also wondering why the pony, whose lameness could be as a result of an ill- fitting saddle is still being ridden in that saddle, especially when several alternatives have been suggested.

Eta, I wouldn't shoe this pony if I could avoid it. I would try the 'cement' that endurance riders sometimes use, first.

We thought it was the saddle but vet said not saddle.

Saddle ok for walk and trot needs to be adjusted for cantering as it moves in canter so no cantering. Been trying to get a saddle appointment since November when saddler can see him being ridden in it.

He changes shape frequently and I have shims which helps.

Last Friday when instructor rode she said she thought it was saddle. I changed the numnah to one with no shims and Saturday and Sunday fine in trot with YO and instructor watching to confirm. We thought he was really moving nicely and stretching well.

Instructor said lame on Tues. Vet came Monday morning and said problem still feet not saddle.

I do need to get the issue with saddle resolved in order to do cantering. Been trying to get saddle appointment since November to see him ridden but due to not being able to get a day off work have not been able to get an appointment as saddler has not been available on any day that my instructor has been available as back up for me. She did managed to come and adjust his saddle without seeing him ridden and it was better but not perfect and then a couple days later he went lame.

He has not cantered under saddle except for one week since I have had him due to constantly changing shape. When he was vetted vet noticed he had girth gall due to poorly fitting saddle. He didn't come with tack and I had to wait a month to get saddle appointment and for his new saddle to arrive and be fitted and bed in.

One of the reasons I am thinking of selling or putting on loan is because of the saddle issues and just not being able get appointments. He needs to be with someone who can take time off work easily to do these things as it looks like he is going to need the saddler out every few weeks to adjust saddle as he changes shape. Saddler has limited availability.

Saddler coming next Friday but that appointment is a bit precarious as I now need to work and leave by 12.30 and my instructor cannot arrive till 12.45 and saddler says she is coming at lunch time so hopefully between us either my instructor or I can be there to ride him in the saddle in canter.

 

[teacups]

Then I would forget the muzzle and not treat as laminitis, which should halve your stress. If a vet AND farrier who have both been hands on with this pony state that it is NOT laminitis and IS soft feet due to wet, then I don’t think you need to factor laminitis in do you.

Get the shoes on, get him out trotting up hills and just enjoy him. There is far too much needless stress and questioning happening here, you have an answer so stop looking for more problems. In the nicest possible way!!

I couldn't agree more. It's amazing to have such a huge pool of (widely varying) experience, knowledge and opinion on this forum, but it should not stop you from following advice from a vet and farrier who have actually seen Bert, over a period of time. It can also distract and make you see problems that are not there. Keep it simple.

If this vet is pro barefoot then you will also know he is not just telling you to put shoes on because he is traditional: he is telling you to put shoes on because in this particular case he thinks it will help Bert. It may well be that later on he can go without shoes again. No need to stress about it.

 

[SO1]

I don't want to change the saddler as she noticed the issue on the right hind when he had a saddle check when everyone else said he was fine. She said he wasn't lame but she was not sure about that right hind and suggested a physio treatment which he had and then he did end up going lame on that leg a few weeks later.

We are also in debate about his weight. I think he is over weight as can't feel his ribs but YO thinks he looks ok. Vet says he has no fat pads in suspicious areas. But I want his weight back down to being able to easily feel ribs and until that point he will be muzzled.

I am still waiting for computers to arrive at work but might be able to speak to phyiso as no more zoom calls today.

 

[Goldenstar]

Earliest evidence of shod horses is prior to 55 BC.

You are in a tight spot and you need a way forward that buys you some time .
Find out if he’s poison in small pockets underrunning his sole Blue came in 9 out 10 lame a few weeks ago no pulses no heat vet came he was that lame I had no choice dug a few holes found no spectacular evidence of pus but we tubbed and poulticed and he came sound in fact he fell asleep with his foot in a bowl as it clearly was relieving the pain .If it’s not that .

I think you need a foot block done just to give you straight answer it’s in the foot .
It it blocks to the foot then you have two choices
Shoe him see if he improves and that means you can work him more or,
Investigate the foot fully ,just take him a vets in for a work up and leave him for a day.

Rumbling low grade bilateral front feet lameness and raised pulses in mine proved to be early changes in both front coffin joints due to poor foot balance. Injected with Arthramid in 2019 and not a bother or pulses since.

ETA problem found by nerve blocks and x rays.

This is exactly the sort of thing which could be going on only a work up will get you answers .

I never have horses who get pus in the foot and I have had two with it since Christmas and one of those is having problems with his soles which we think have been exfoliating too much because of the ground conditions .
That horse is going into pads next week .

You need to get some answers if you are going to loan shape or sell him .
You also need to get his weight right can he be given straw instead of most of his hay ration .

 

[paddy555]

It's only going on places that are already dead.

Keratex has been being used by people without any issues for over 30 years.
.

maybe but not for me

https://www.statelinetack.com/contentfiles/Associated_Content/KeratexHoofHardenerMSDS.pdf

this is the 2018 version, there may be a later one.

 

[SO1]

Earliest evidence of shod horses is prior to 55 BC.

You are in a tight spot and you need a way forward that buys you some time .
Find out if he’s poison in small pockets underrunning his sole Blue came in 9 out 10 lame a few weeks ago no pulses no heat vet came he was that lame I had no choice dug a few holes found no spectacular evidence of pus but we tubbed and poulticed and he came sound in fact he fell asleep with his foot in a bowl as it clearly was relieving the pain .If it’s not that .

I think you need a foot block done just to give you straight answer it’s in the foot .
It it blocks to the foot then you have two choices
Shoe him see if he improves and that means you can work him more or,
Investigate the foot fully ,just take him a vets in for a work up and leave him for a day.


This is exactly the sort of thing which could be going on only a work up will get you answers .

I never have horses who get pus in the foot and I have had two with it since Christmas and one of those is having problems with his soles which we think have been exfoliating too much because of the ground conditions .
That horse is going into pads next week .

You need to get some answers if you are going to loan shape or sell him .
You also need to get his weight right can he be given straw instead of most of his hay ration .

Absolutely I would not sell or loan him until he is better and in full work as that would not be fair on any new owner or loaner.

I looked at him last night and thought emotionally could I sell him and I thought yes I could it is not like with Homey where that just would not have been an option for me.

If I am going to rehome him he needs to go in good condition.

I just don't think I have the emotional capability for horse ownership again. There is a limit to what I can give timewise. I also think I can't give a good home to horse due to lack of time. Even on full livery there is a limit to what they can do and I do need to be able to speak to professionals in order to make decisions. I had many happy years with Homey with very little need for appointments and did most of his exercise myself until the last few years of his life and it was all manageable. I think I was lucky to a degree with him despite loosing him at 20 in the 15 years I had him.

 

[SO1]

The other I need to do which I have not done yet is get him tested for PSSM which I can do through the Breed Society.

Just had a message to say phyiso has treated him and he can be exercised tomorrow. Tightness in right hind and left shoulder recommended another treatment in 8 weeks.

I will need to feed back information to vet about Phyiso. He is shod next Wednesday and a vet will be there for sedation so can see him again then. It will be a different vet from the practice to sedation as my vet not working that day but will still ask that vet to check him before he is shod.

The saddler comes on Friday and then we can see how he is under saddle after 10 days of not being ridden, being shod and his saddle fitting.

I expect unless he makes a miraculous recovery following the shoes, physio and saddle he will ended up having a full lameness investigation as he may be lame in more than one leg and it not being totally clear.

 

[Reacher]

@SO1 I’m sorry you are having ongoing problems and considering selling. Have you thought of sharing him? It would be a reversible half way house solution .

I’ve not read every response so apologies if I’ve missed anything- is he turned out 24/7? Or does he have any time inside to dry his feet out? I see you are applying the sole hardener so hope that should help.
I have just started using Keratex hoof gel (slightly different product) to waterproof my horse’s frogs.

Also do you feed a balancer? Mine are on forage plus hoof and skin balancer and they grow plenty sole. Trimmer was here last week and trying to trim off bits of compacted sole, with difficulty - it was rock hard. (My paddock is very wet but they are brought into yard over night).

I would have thought it fairly easy to tell if it’s the saddle that’s the problem - is he sound on the lunge?

I know shoeing has been advised, but cavallo hoof boots are very easy to use and forgiving in fit, even just a short term measure - and there are different models which fit different hoof shapes. That would show up if it’s the sole that’s the problem or something internal .

Also have you thought of having a vet 2nd opinion? Just to be sure nothing has been missed?

No need to reply - just a few thoughts which occurred which I hope may be of some help.

 

[criso]

I know shoeing has been advised, but cavallo hoof boots are very easy to use and forgiving in fit, even just a short term measure - and there are different models which fit different hoof shapes. That would show up if it’s the sole that’s the problem or something internal

The issue in this case is SO1 is not there to put on and remove the boots and Bert is sensitive enough that he would need booting to and from the field. And it's not something that can be done by yard staff. It's not just a case of needing them for when hacking and he can be without the rest of the time.

 

[Reacher]

The issue in this case is SO1 is not there to put on and remove the boots and Bert is sensitive enough that he would need booting to and from the field. And it's not something that can be done by yard staff. It's not just a case of needing them for when hacking and he can be without the rest of the time.

Ok I’d forgotten about moving to/from field.
Could the staff be paid extra to do it using cavallos or similar which are very straightforward? Presumably this has already been discussed and discounted

 

[cauda equina]

Cavallos are so easy, I used to put them on and off during rides - booting for the stony bits and carrying them in a backpack on the roads
I'd be surprised if competent staff couldn't manage to put them on for getting in and out

 

[SO1]

The issue in this case is SO1 is not there to put on and remove the boots and Bert is sensitive enough that he would need booting to and from the field. And it's not something that can be done by yard staff. It's not just a case of needing them for when hacking and he can be without the rest of the time.

Yes when it rains a lot the road he has to cross for some reason is full of small stones, large stones and gravel it is really weird as it is not so bad with stones when it is not wet. This problem with stone sensitivity only occurred during the wet weather he has been crossing the road to get to fields when he moved into the gelding herd in September and was fine until mid January.

Homey my previous New Forest had to be shod on his fronts for same reason he was not good with stones. In the end he also had to be shod on the backs as well due his hooves getting worn down when he was doing a lot of hacking and road work.

It is not always the same people who do turn out and they can't really manage any hoof boots. They can put his muzzle on but putting on boots to cross the gravel and then taking them off in the field is not something they can do.

 

[Patterdale]

Ok I’d forgotten about moving to/from field.
Could the staff be paid extra to do it using cavallos or similar which are very straightforward? Presumably this has already been discussed and discounted

Yes it has, several pages back in great detail.

This isn’t helping SO1.

 

[criso]

Cavallos are so easy, I used to put them on and off during rides - booting for the stony bits and carrying them in a backpack on the roads
I'd be surprised if competent staff couldn't manage to put them on for getting in and out

Yes but it would be quite a faff to have to put them on muddy feet on the way out especially if you've got horses anxious to get in and not standing still.

In that situation I would be more likely to actually leave then on all day for turnout. It's what I did last year post abscess to protect while the hole healed but that was a temporary thing for a week or so not long term.

 

[Tiddlypom]

OP, you are paying a good whack of livery money (you’ve shared what you pay on another thread), and I'm surprised that your yard doesn’t offer more day to day help for when a busy owner can’t be present. I’m usually one of the first to say that people want their livery on the cheap, but yours isn’t cheap.

Are there other yards that you can consider that would offer more suitable and less lush grazing for Bert, plus staff who will hold him for farrier and vet’s visits, and who will relay information back to you? There are many other owners with horses at livery who simply can’t take time off during their working week.

 

[Gloi]

If it was me I would be using Hoof Armour on him now which should protect and waterproof the hooves enough that he wouldn't struggle with turnout and then use front boots at least for riding until he showed his feet had built up enough strength not to need them anymore.

 

[SO1]

OP, you are paying a good whack of livery money (you’ve shared what you pay on another thread), and I'm surprised that your yard doesn’t offer more day to day help for when a busy owner can’t be present. I’m usually one of the first to say that people want their livery on the cheap, but yours isn’t cheap.

Are there other yards that you can consider that would offer more suitable and less lush grazing for Bert, plus staff who will hold him for farrier and vet’s visits, and who will relay information back to you? There are many other owners with horses at livery who simply can’t take time off during their working week.

They are holding for farrier and lunging for the vet, and my instructor did the phyiso appointment today. I think part of the problem is the volume of visits and their time. For example today several horse had the phyiso so they want to have all the appointments on the same day.

They always say they are very busy. They like a lot of places are short staffed. They do soak his hay and put his muzzle on.

The vet wants Bert out as much as possible in the field due to his stifle issue there are possibly other places with less grass but very limited winter turnout or DIY which I can't really do now and it works in terms of my instructor being able to ride or help with appointments etc. The grass livery I had Homey on for 6 years lost a horse due to sycamore and that was the reason I moved.

I probably will have to investigate other places further away it is important to have alternatives in case the yard closes so many places lost to development but at the moment my feelings are I am not sure if I actually want to have a horse regardless of where they are kept.

The prices are very reasonable for the livery most of the other yards in the area are well over £1000 a month. The basic care is good, they notice if is horse is lame at catch in, they are all checked over, hooves picked out. the beds are clean, they get enough hay and feed is low starch, there is a late night check, they go out every day. They do soaked hay. The grass is a problem and they don't do boots for the field unless over reaches and they don't do rug changes so they have to be in turnouts in the stables for example.

He may not need vet sedation for the farrier if I was able to be with him for the farrier appointment to reasure him. Most of the horses are just tied up for farrier and are not held as such. The farrier comes with apprentices who help. YO did ask vet if the shoes could wait until the farrier next came to shoe the horses and he said yes.

Appointments do have to fit in with staff time so have to check if someone available to help normally my instructor as she knows Bert and he is shy. Sometimes they can't help me as they are too busy.

 

[m1stify]

Wait and see how things pan out before you loan or sell him. You are going through a tough patch and probably can’t see the wood for the trees. You can’t loan him or sell him (unless for half nothing) the way he is now. You have a lot going on outside horses so wait until things settle down before making such a drastic decision. Remember your needs are important too. I remember how long it took you to find Bert. I understand you don’t have the bond you had with Homey but you barely know him yet and you haven’t really had a chance to really get going!

 

[Reacher]

Yes it has, several pages back in great detail.

This isn’t helping SO1.

And I prefaced by saying said I hadn’t read every post .

SO1 is welcome to discount anything she feels isn’t relevant which is why I said she didn’t need to feel she had to reply to my post.

My hoof boot comment was only a small part of my post but thankyou for your disparaging reply.

 

[tristars]

the vet seems to want it all roads out in the wet with soggy feet, for the stifles, when he needs to dry out his feet by being off the wet ground yarded

does he lock in his stifles?

the first thing i would want is the stifles x rayed, and probably the feet, get the feet right, the saddle fitted or borrow one,

until he can walk on his feet you are going nowhere, the stifles will come right poss when he is ridden, later, with hard work and fitness, the physio says he is tight at the back, that is typical side effect from the stifle problem

at the mo he is not able to move properly between the feet and the stifles, i
would be walking him over raised poles few times a day, booting up and hand walking, no turnout in wet until some improvement in the pony or the weather and ground

vets and farriers sometimes say no lami when there is, to my eye he is too heavy, i would want to start the hand walking, in boots now, walking in the arena on a long lunge rein in big squares, start to sort the the weight, the feet, the stifles all together

if that could done for a couple of weeks you might see a huge improvement, stop you worrying about the grass and his weight, the muzzles, the wet feet and the stifles might improve when he can move comfortably, in a while the ground should dry up, not too long, i hope!

personally i would not shoe him, i would like to see how he is moving daily and be able to look at the white line

its a very frustrating thing, for you and to read about!