Boggle- USA bound!

[dixie]

I had a horse pts and as the vet quite often liked to dissect horses for training purposes etc, I offered him to him.
The horse was a very jolly little fellow with a fabulous jump until one day he just wasn’t. He went downhill very quickly to the point I realised he couldn’t move over very well in the yard and he was pts.

We knew he had severe arthritis in his fetlock but it turned out it was so much worse than that in his other limbs.
I was so glad I did it. He was a horse like Bog, who hid his pain well and always had a big smile on his face.

It didn’t cost me anything though !

 

[Auslander]

I get you, re the necropsy. I'd have been fascinated to see what was going on with Alf, and if it was what I suspected. I managed to restrain myself though, on the basis that it wouldn't change anything.
I still managed to rack up an £1800 bill for the 3 days between finding him lame in the field and having him pts! So much for "I only want a couple of xrays to check for a massive deep abscess-I'm not doing any more investigations"!

 

[Sandstone1]

I think it depends on how you will cope with the results. If they didnt find very much on PM would you blame yourself for pts? On the other hand they may find a lot of stuff which could put your mind at rest that you did the right thing. Hard to know really, but as the person who knows and loves Boggle the best you are really the only person other than the vet who can decide whats best. You have done so much for him already. I think you know him well enough to make the right choice. If thats give him a bit longer to see what happens or let him go I do not think either would be wrong at this point.
I think you have to do whats right for you.

 

[palo1]

I wouldn't go for autopsy tbh, no matter how curious I may be. When I have called it a day in the past it has been either irretrievable - in veterinary or financial terms, or about the horse's quality of life. I have always been confident that it was right for the horse and me so have needed a degree of closure, as it is always bloody heartbreaking. I would not have wanted to find, way after it being too late, that internally things have been better or worse than the holistic presentation in life. Both scenarios could be so emotionally misleading I think. As for finding not much...well, the horse itself still presented as struggling in an unviable way so that doesn't either change things or provide answers.

You have to do what feels right for you in the end, however and whatever that is. Grimly, there is a way you can be with the horse right till the end when they are shot, without seeing anything. I have done that but you need help and most vets will not want to do this, for safety reasons. I am very grateful that the senior partner at 3 Counties Equine hospital did support me when that is what my horse and I needed, though that was some time ago. Hopefully Bogs will be ok for a while yet and you have more time to consider all these things! Hugs.

 

[Trouper]

As I've mentioned before the only thing that matters to me is knowing that there is nothing left in veterinary science that I can do for them. Finding something that could have been "helped" in some way afterwards would have been just too heartbreaking for me to go on living with so, no, any sort of autoposy for me would only be for sudden, unexplained collapse and death before veterinary treatment. With a horse in Bog's situation it is a game of Russian Roulette that I would, personally, rather not play.

I guess we are all different in how we cope with the process of pts itself. I couldn't cope with the gun. I want to be the one holding them - the last face they see and the last voice they hear and I am fortunate in having had vets who respected that and quietly just did what they had to do but left the rest to me. I am so hoping that it doesn't come to that with Bog and that a way can be found to make his retirement comfortable but, whichever way it goes, you know we all have your back.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

I would and have done on a dog that had episodes of agression that were not explained. We knew we did the right thing but this just helped confirm it.

Even if it was something that was treatable its just one more thing for both of you to manage so I wouldnt feel guilty if found etc.....as there comes a point of if its fair to manage for both of you to the last letter and how much stress it causes you both if something is dropped or missed due to no fault. Like I said in my post about my WB, she could be managed on painkillers but for my it wasn't fair to her or me.

 

[splashgirl45]

Going on the impression you have given on here don’t think it would do your mental health any good to have an autopsy, after all if you are making a decision based on his quality of life, the autopsy showing nothing much was wrong wouldn’t be helpful. You seem to be expecting the worst which I can understand but you know Bog better than anyone and maybe he isn’t ready to go yet going from his cheeky behaviour, have you messaged your UK vet to get his ideas ?

 

[ycbm]

Hard no to an autopsy from me M. It will crucify you mentally for the rest of your life if nothing is found and it doesn't bear thinking about how you would feel if something was found which could have been fixed.

You've seen him in what looked like agonising pain with a locking neck twice so far, if you make the decision, then I would do it on the basis that the risk of finding him like that again can only increase with age and you spare him that future pain.

My heart goes out to you. This isn't the situation any of us wanted for you and him when we followed the pair of you on your journey across the pond
.

 

[Lurfy]

I've never had a horse autopsied, but I've also known what was wrong in each case I've had pts. If I had an unknown issue that was requiring me to pts, I would consider an autopsy. I would ask the vet how informative autopsies tend to be. If she thought they were low odds in her experience, I would be guided by that and vice versa.
I totally feel for you Minchen. I give no advice what to do except be guided by your vet and your own gut. All the very best from the bottom of my heart xxx

 

[Sandstone1]

Going on the impression you have given on here don’t think it would do your mental health any good to have an autopsy, after all if you are making a decision based on his quality of life, the autopsy showing nothing much was wrong wouldn’t be helpful. You seem to be expecting the worst which I can understand but you know Bog better than anyone and maybe he isn’t ready to go yet going from his cheeky behaviour, have you messaged your UK vet to get his ideas ?

Yes, breaking in to tack feed room shows he still has some spark left! However he is your horse you know him best and you have to think of your own mental health too.
This is not a criticism at all but maybe think about your own health and how its impacting on the way you see Boggle.
No one can say you have not gone over and above what many owners would do for a horse but maybe relax a bit and see Boggle for who he is and not look for every tiny thing that could be wrong.
Having said that whatever you decide will not be wrong.
I just would not rush in to any major decisions unless you are 100% sure. Otherwise you will drive yourself mad with guilt.

 

[setterlover]

I have had one autopsy done on a dog and one done on a horse
The dog was being treated for a chest infection and over a Sunday night worsened greatly on rushing him up to the vets early on the Monday morning he passed away in the car on the way there ,a deep sigh then gone head on my knee
Vets wanted an autopsy couldn't believe he was ill enough to die.
Autopsy revealed massive lung cancer tumour.he never appeared that ill ( no charge)
The horse was a lovely Arab aged 26 had ridden him the day before happy full of beans .Got up in the morning a lovely warm sunny morning he was lying down went down to get him in he was stone dead and stiff must have died a few hours before no sign of a fuss no scrap marks must have fell dead.
Rang my vet and he asked if he could do an autopsy ( no charge) found a massive aortic annurysm just dropped dead.
These were unexpected and for me needed explaining of all the others I have just drawn a line under it and tried to move on.
Not sure how helpful it would be in your case could just make it all worse.

 

[Emilieu]

It has always been a hard no from me, mostly for financial reasons. I’ll give them every penny I had if it means helping them or fixing them, but I am not rich enough to spend money on something that won’t make any difference to them.

 

[Michen]

Thank you everyone that’s given me lots to think about. I’m not sure that if nothing was found, it would matter? Because I would only be putting to sleep on the basis of the horse in front me, and we all know that an X ray can look completely awful and be causing the horse no issues. Or vice versa. I don’t know, I’ll continue to think about it a little more but I’m leaning towards no.

Bog is very perky, but he always would be. I just popped him in the stable next to Dusty whilst I mucked out, he seemed far more like normal Bog bossing. But it was only 10 mins or so.

I am pretty confident I am getting the inevitable ulcers under control, at the moment, 5 full days of treatment and he definitely seems back to “normal” in the pasture with Dusty. Last dose of bute is today and then I guess we will really see what’s what.

Can necks fuse? I dunno? It’s so weird that the small remaining forelimb ataxia seemed to overnight improve and all but go away, it seems crazy to think a few weeks ago I was vaguely considering hoping on him for his hand walks (stupid, stupid), but now his stride looks short at the front. It just seems odd.

 

[sportsmansB]

Mine who developed a shorter trot in front - which I saw on the lunge before he was actually lame- was a combo of coffin joint arthritis and a bit of navicular. Neither looked overly prominent on the x ray but were enough to make him uncomfortable.
He retired that day and has been toddling around the field since. Always with the proviso that if he ever showed that he was uncomfortable doing that and going for the odd sport about, that my decision would be made. He doesn't have another complex history though

 

[Michen]

Mine who developed a shorter trot in front - which I saw on the lunge before he was actually lame- was a combo of coffin joint arthritis and a bit of navicular. Neither looked overly prominent on the x ray but were enough to make him uncomfortable.
He retired that day and has been toddling around the field since. Always with the proviso that if he ever showed that he was uncomfortable doing that and going for the odd sport about, that my decision would be made. He doesn't have another complex history though

Yeh, coffin joint arthritis is definitely at the front of my mind. My vet always said he'd be the sort that could get it. Particularly because when barefoot, Bog grows very upright feet. And he's been barefoot for 18 months since he got here... the longest stint out of shoes in the 7 years I've had him. I usually have annual x rays done of his feet, but I haven't, because so much has been happening etc and the feet seemed the last of my worries. He has amazing, strong frogs and DC but he does love to grow heel. Oh, and he's always kind of had side bone. I just found the report from Liphook MRI 2017. "Bilateral ossification of the base of the collateral cartilages to the level of the proximal border of the navicular bone. Ths signal pattern throughout is within normal ranges".

Shoeing him seems to "relax" the angles a little.

I will definitely be pinging some nerve blocks on thursday and if he blocks to the hoof will certainly be x raying. Christ, if after ALL this, I've mucked up the feet that I spent years carefully managing by focusing on other things, I will be beyond angry with myself.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Hard no for the autopsy from me too. I agree wth YCBM. I can't see how it possible help. Confirm you made the right call? - But you know you will make that call on QOL anyway so how does that benefit you? Or - nightmare scenario - fail to confirm you made the right call and plant seeds of doubt in your mind.

The only reason I'd ever autopsy would be for answers I needed if I found one of mine dead in the field one day, with no apparent cause. I'd need to know what had happened. But never in this scenario.

Sending hugs. Awful situation xx

 

[iknowmyvalue]

I’m not sure I’d go for the autopsy either. You’re making decisions based on the horse in front of you, and whilst it’s nice to know, ultimately there’s nothing it would change.

I thought about it for my mare who had a rotational and died immediately after (not euthanised, no externally visible injury). More to know whether rotational fall had caused catastrophic injury, or whether she’d had some kind of cardiac episode or something which caused the fall. Part of me wishes I had to know for certain which it was, but it would have made no difference really.

I really hope you find something to explain his shortness in front, but either way I know you will always do right by him

 

[setterlover]

The only reason I'd ever autopsy would be for answers I needed if I found one of mine dead in the field one day, with no apparent cause. I'd need to know what had happened. But never in this scenario.

That was why I had the autopsy on my Arab I found dead in the field .I had ridden him the day before and yes he was 25 but seemed bright as a button.
Vet said I was lucky it happened overnight (possibly the horses had a little canter about and it just happened) it could have happened when I was having a canter on that last ride and had devastating consequences (certainly for me)
Must admit it was over 30 years ago but my heart always skips a beat when I see one of mine lying down!!!!

 

[druid]

Hope Thursday gives you some answers. I wouldn't autopsy, its won't tell you what you want to know about the neck unless you pay for a seperate CT and then it won't be myleogram so not that informative for the cost in my opinion only of course.

 

[Michen]

Hope Thursday gives you some answers. I wouldn't autopsy, its won't tell you what you want to know about the neck unless you pay for a seperate CT and then it won't be myleogram so not that informative for the cost in my opinion only of course.

Thank you that's really helpful. The internal medicine vet who got him through his stays there just called me, and I forgot to ask her so that's very good to know.

For some reason the practice are saying they wouldn't PTS thursday, but would "send someone out" first thing friday!? That seems kind of odd, I don't want a vet that I don't know coming back to do it. I'm confused why they wouldn't do it there and then if that's the route we go down.

 

[druid]

Thank you that's really helpful. The internal medicine vet who got him through his stays there just called me, and I forgot to ask her so that's very good to know.

For some reason the practice are saying they wouldn't PTS thursday, but would "send someone out" first thing friday!? That seems kind of odd, I don't want a vet that I don't know coming back to do it. I'm confused why they wouldn't do it there and then if that's the route we go down.

Probably timing of collection, if he's done with injection you can't leave them outdoors overnight for fear of predation and secondary poisioning . Or at least unless a dire emergency we didn't in KY or NY if possible.

 

[nutjob]

For some reason the practice are saying they wouldn't PTS thursday, but would "send someone out" first thing friday!? That seems kind of odd, I don't want a vet that I don't know coming back to do it. I'm confused why they wouldn't do it there and then if that's the route we go down.

I don't know why the vet practice would do this and whilst I don't agree with them imposing this on you I do think that making the final decision on Thursday might not be for the best. ATM you don't know what the findings will be and whether there will be treatment options. If it's not an emergency it gives you a bit of thinking time based on the new information.

 

[Michen]

Probably timing of collection, if he's done with injection you can't leave them outdoors overnight for fear of predation and secondary poisioning . Or at least unless a dire emergency we didn't in KY or NY if possible.

Oh I hadn’t thought about that. Bears and mountain lions here etc. I assumed they can get collected any time of day.

 

[meleeka]

I’m guessing it’s about timings. They may have appointments already booked after you and as it won’t be an emergency, it makes sense to be unhurried.

 

[druid]

Oh I hadn’t thought about that. Bears and mountain lions here etc. I assumed they can get collected any time of day.

It was coyotes mostly that concerned us but yes any big carnivore would be a concern!

 

[BMA2]

I wish vets would do more autopsies...just for their own knowledge

 

[misst]

Mitchen I've just caught up as I'm away at the moment. Thinking of you and Bog.
It's hard to go against the grain when people around you are saying don't PTS. I would avoid discussing it with anyone except the vet.
People can be very cruel even if they don't intend to be. I hope it doesn't come to PTS but whatever happens you'll do what is right for both of you. Having been in a drawn out shall we shan't we position like you I can say when the deed was done I really knew I'd done the right thing.

 

[Michen]

Thank you. Maybe friday morning if we PTS is the best option. Though I'm not sure how I could stand the waiting knowing for sure. I have no idea how I'm going to deal with work in all this.

 

[mustardsmum]

Another no to autopsy here as well, and for all the reasons stated by others. I am so sad you are going through all this @Michen but I really think once you make the decision, its because you know Bog is not going to get better and his quality of life is not what it once was. An autopsy wont change that, it will only drive you to worry about each and every decision you have made so far if you get an inconclusive result, or worse still find something treatable. You know (as do all of us) that everything you have done has been done absolutely in this little horses interest. Sometimes drawing a line is the best decision - it won’t bring him back and it may not give you closure. If it is his time, then you will know. I am really, really hoping it is just that as he is retired, he is not as fit as he once was so what you are seeing is just a reflection of this. Just really want to say I am thinking of you in the next couple of days.

 

[tristars]

perhaps the body removers work in the day and go round sorting things as they get there, on the route, sometimes they arrive pretty quickly but hoping for the best at this moment

i could have had some autopsied, did once but was fairly inconclusive, [horse was already dead] but others the vets mumbled this and that and i kind of shut off, too late dear horse, `did everything poss while you were alive, saw you go with a smile on your face` that is a sweet memory, its not clear cut very often overall, but the suffering is gone, and that has meant a lot.

sorry to be depressing and hoping for good news really