Boggle- USA bound!

[palo1]

Playfulness is a great indication of wellbeing which must be heartening, if only today! Whatever the issue is lameness wise, it must be lovely to see Boggle happier with Dusty and wanting to play. So glad Dusty has some security too and fingers crossed Bog is easily repaired this time. Constant worry and sadness is dire so I hope you have some good things to help too.

 

[Michen]

Oh just LOL I can only laugh at this point, I'd been keeping Boggles bute (its a liquid form in a tube thing like a wormer), in the house because of the temps and I didn't know if it would affect the drug. I think I've dropped it somewhere, or it's fallen out of my car, or something. So can't find it anywhere.

Obviously he can't go without, its out of hours, so the only way to get some is an emergency vet visit. What's another $400 dollars, sigh.

I give up!

 

[PurBee]

Oh just LOL I can only laugh at this point, I'd been keeping Boggles bute (its a liquid form in a tube thing like a wormer), in the house because of the temps and I didn't know if it would affect the drug. I think I've dropped it somewhere, or it's fallen out of my car, or something. So can't find it anywhere.

Obviously he can't go without, its out of hours, so the only way to get some is an emergency vet visit. What's another $400 dollars, sigh.

I give up!

Maybe its a serendipitous happening? Obviously i’ve no full picture of bog’s bute needs or how long he’s been on it but im just throwing this possibility out there….but the major side effect with bute is its gut aggravation possibility as it blocks the body making the cells needed to line the gut.
With both my horses, gut aggravation caused by anything tends to affect their mood for the worst, and my thin-soled mare gets footy with any kind of gut change.
So maybe Bog’s recent nasty attitude to Dusty is due to bute? Hence why giving him gut lining ulcer meds since has helped?

Im just throwing out a line of consideration to perhaps ponder cause = effect. Life’s complex and often we cant see all possibilities. You mentioning the bute vanishing inexplicably reminded me of times when what happening seemed ‘wrong’ at the time, but actually turned out to be helpful.

If bute is perhaps causing issues, then a change to another more gut friendly pain relief might be more effective than bute for the bute-required issues?

 

[Michen]

Maybe its a serendipitous happening? Obviously i’ve no full picture of bog’s bute needs or how long he’s been on it but im just throwing this possibility out there….but the major side effect with bute is its gut aggravation possibility as it blocks the body making the cells needed to line the gut.
With both my horses, gut aggravation caused by anything tends to affect their mood for the worst, and my thin-soled mare gets footy with any kind of gut change.
So maybe Bog’s recent nasty attitude to Dusty is due to bute? Hence why giving him gut lining ulcer meds since has helped?

Im just throwing out a line of consideration to perhaps ponder cause = effect. Life’s complex and often we cant see all possibilities. You mentioning the bute vanishing inexplicably reminded me of times when what happening seemed ‘wrong’ at the time, but actually turned out to be helpful.

If bute is perhaps causing issues, then a change to another more gut friendly pain relief might be more effective than bute for the bute-required issues?

Hey PB, he's only been on bute the last two days. Beforehand he was on equioxx- I don't think that exists in the UK- but it's more for long term pain relief and considered pretty ok. He's been on that for maybe 8 weeks with the idea of keeping him on it indefinitely to keep him comfortable. I switched him to bute for the short term whilst we make a decision because the equioxx wasn't cutting it.

Of course yes, it could suddenly have caused ulcers. But, given he's lame/sore, I think giving bute is the lesser of two evils for the short term.

 

[Petalpoos]

Have you checked to see if anyone you know has some? Then you could give it back when you can get some on Monday.

 

[Michen]

Have you checked to see if anyone you know has some? Then you could give it back when you can get some on Monday.

Yeah, can't find any. Or rather any in date. Lots of equioxx. It's just more common here, I guess because considered easier on the stomach.

It's fine, they can also do a blood draw on him too, I'd like the results of that by thursday when the vet comes just to ensure that if he is PTS we have covered all basis with finding any reason for discomfort. Obviously not expecting anything internal to be causing the lameness but it feels like a box to check as a hail mary.

Him and Dusty were just being complete idiots in the field, tearing around like absolute lunatics, had to bring them in before they did something completely ridiculous. I'm not sure if I should be turning him out to exacerbate whatever's wrong,but if we find it and think it's treatable, it has to be fixable with no restrictions on his movement anyway. I did 5 weeks stall/run rest for the adhesion thing, that's enough. I absolutely will not do any more.

He did look very good tearing around but he will still have the bute in his system I suppose, and they were high as kites reacting to something so it doesn't really count IMO.

 

[doodle]

That's interesting what you say about equioxx. My vet got it for mine due to his ulcers. He said it was equivalent but I never really thought it did anything.

 

[Michen]

That's interesting what you say about equioxx. My vet got it for mine due to his ulcers. He said it was equivalent but I never really thought it did anything.

As in, never did anything for pain?

 

[meleeka]

What dose of bute is he on?

 

[Michen]

Deleted

 

[doodle]

As in, never did anything for pain?

No. It was also used as anti inflammatory and I didn't think it helped that either. He had it initially as he had knocked the front of a fetlock so was hard to tell if it helped but the swelling was slow to go down. Then used after his vaccs as he always reacts. Again it didn't seem to do much and this year he is on danilon with a much better outcome

 

[Indy]

I know someone who used Equioxx on her pony for hock arthritis and she said it didn't seem to make any difference. She went back onto bute

 

[hollyandivy123]

for information only

Bute Vs. Equioxx: Tradeoffs

Because it's a good time to learn about things, right? I recently had the unfortunate but useful opportunity to compare the results of the two most commonly used equine NSAIDs (Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs; bute & Equioxx) on the same injury -- Echo's shoulder. There are pros & cons...

www.teamflyingsolo.com

"Bute refers to phenylbutazone, our old friend which has been around for decades. It's cheap & fairly effective for pain management. Given orally, it takes about 2-3 hrs to absorb from the belly & peaks in 3-5 hrs. Persisting about 12 hrs, bute blocks both COX-1 & 2 production.

Equioxx is a brand name of firocoxib, a newer drug that is known in the canine world as Previcox. It was developed for the treatment of osteoarthritis. It's also given orally by owners, but is much slower to take effect. It takes at least 24 hrs for levels to begin to peak & does not reach steady state for 4-6 days. It also has a half-life of 44-46 hrs, so it takes an additional two days minimum to disappear after you stop giving it. Firocoxib is a selective COX-2 inhibitor, which means it preferentially blocks COX-2 but still has a minor effect on COX-1."

 

[Michen]

The bute seems to be far, far more effective. He looks great, perfect, not remotely ataxic or sore. 2g so 2 sachets.

The aggression is still severe in stall and run to Dusty and I think he’s even a bit grumpy towards me for the odd second as well. If anything I’d say that’s worse though it does seem better in pasture. I expect having got his pain relief well under control, but with a drug that is very unhelpful to ulcers, clearing up ulcers whilst on it will be extremely difficult if not impossible and my back is probably against a wall over it all.

It’s very hard to know, bearing that in mind, if I should be waiting until Thursday to PTS. I’d except to see more improvement not worsening in the stall, run by now, and I’m not heartened by the fact that on occasion he’s flattening his ears at me too. Though he is still immensely enjoying a good curry comb scratch and groom.

 

[cauda equina]

Can you get Danilon (suxibuzone) where you are?
That has been shown to cause less gastric ulceration than bute

 

[SEL]

The bute seems to be far, far more effective. He looks great, perfect, not remotely ataxic or sore. 2g so 2 sachets.

The aggression is still severe in stall and run to Dusty and I think he’s even a bit grumpy towards me for the odd second as well. If anything I’d say that’s worse though it does seem better in pasture. I expect having got his pain relief well under control, but with a drug that is very unhelpful to ulcers, clearing up ulcers whilst on it will be extremely difficult if not impossible and my back is probably against a wall over it all.

It’s very hard to know, bearing that in mind, if I should be waiting until Thursday to PTS. I’d except to see more improvement not worsening in the stall, run by now, and I’m not heartened by the fact that on occasion he’s flattening his ears at me too. Though he is still immensely enjoying a good curry comb scratch and groom.

Bog has never been great with other horses has he? I seem to remember he decided Bear was OK but was never convinced about companions so are you sure that's a pain response?

Previcox (which was the dog drug until they realised there was more money in horse owners so rebranded equioxx) never did anything for the Appy when she had it. She's on CBD now with the odd sachet of bute if she's been charging around with the others. Her stomach can't take it on a daily basis, but I have fed 2 sachets a day for a week after her last big tie up as the lesser of two evils and she did fine.

FWIW my mother had to take long term ibuprofen and the GP prescribed omeprazole alongside it so what you're feeding now is OK from a human medicine perspective if you want to give yourself more time to see how he does.

 

[Michen]

Bog has never been great with other horses has he? I seem to remember he decided Bear was OK but was never convinced about companions so are you sure that's a pain response?

Previcox (which was the dog drug until they realised there was more money in horse owners so rebranded equioxx) never did anything for the Appy when she had it. She's on CBD now with the odd sachet of bute if she's been charging around with the others. Her stomach can't take it on a daily basis, but I have fed 2 sachets a day for a week after her last big tie up as the lesser of two evils and she did fine.

FWIW my mother had to take long term ibuprofen and the GP prescribed omeprazole alongside it so what you're feeding now is OK from a human medicine perspective if you want to give yourself more time to see how he does.

He’s never been convinced by other horses, but he’s never been this level of aggression to them. And I’m convinced it’s pain because it happened suddenly. And, because I’m seeing little flickers of it towards me now which he’s never done.

Very interesting re previcox/equioxx. My understanding is the Danilon vs bute thing is a myth, it tastes better because it’s sugar coated and that’s it.

 

[Ahrena]

He’s never been convinced by other horses, but he’s never been this level of aggression to them. And I’m convinced it’s pain because it happened suddenly. And, because I’m seeing little flickers of it towards me now which he’s never done.

Very interesting re previcox/equioxx. My understanding is the Danilon vs bute thing is a myth, it tastes better because it’s sugar coated and that’s it.

I remember when Willow was on long term pain relief she was on Danilon, the vet said it was better for her stomach although I can’t comment on the truth in that. That was a long time ago so could well be changes in thought now

 

[Michen]

I remember when Willow was on long term pain relief she was on Danilon, the vet said it was better for her stomach although I can’t comment on the truth in that. That was a long time ago so could well be changes in thought now

Yeah feel like I’ve had that convo with UK vet. Doesn’t look like it exists here anyway.

 

[BMA2]

I thought...and I'm sure someone here will know but because of the coating of danilon it goes through them further before it starts to do its thing which means it's bypassed some parts of the digestive tract that bute can upset...

But I've always been OK with bute so never really used it or had to research it etc etc

 

[Annagain]

Bog has never been great with other horses has he? I seem to remember he decided Bear was OK but was never convinced about companions so are you sure that's a pain response?

Previcox (which was the dog drug until they realised there was more money in horse owners so rebranded equioxx) never did anything for the Appy when she had it. She's on CBD now with the odd sachet of bute if she's been charging around with the others. Her stomach can't take it on a daily basis, but I have fed 2 sachets a day for a week after her last big tie up as the lesser of two evils and she did fine.

FWIW my mother had to take long term ibuprofen and the GP prescribed omeprazole alongside it so what you're feeding now is OK from a human medicine perspective if you want to give yourself more time to see how he does.

Sorry to hijack but I'm interested in the CBD. Is it a veterinary one, SEL or just a normal one? I think Arch might benefit from it instead of Danilon long term. He's been on a bit of Danilon when he's needed it but when he hurt his eye and was on it daily we really noticed a difference in him so he's having a sachet daily (not loads for a 600kg horse but if there's some thing that's easier on the tum, I'd be happier with him having that. I know Danion is supposed better than bute but it's still not perfect.

Sending a cwtch, Michen.

 

[SEL]

Sorry to hijack but I'm interested in the CBD. Is it a veterinary one, SEL or just a normal one? I think Arch might benefit from it instead of Danilon long term. He's been on a bit of Danilon when he's needed it but when he hurt his eye and was on it daily we really noticed a difference in him so he's having a sachet daily (not loads for a 600kg horse but if there's some thing that's easier on the tum, I'd be happier with him having that. I know Danion is supposed better than bute but it's still not perfect.

Sending a cwtch, Michen.

I get mine from Hempine - it isn't cheap though especially as she seems to need a pretty sizeable dosage (around 675kg).

The pony (400kg) get a dose 24 hours before the farrier and its made a huge difference to her. She doesn't need it the rest of the time but my farrier asked what I'd done differently she was so chilled having her hinds done.

Its one of those supplements that's worth a try I think even if you decide to go back to danilon

 

[Michen]

He’s going to kill me with stress. I gave him omeprazole at 5am and must not have latched his door properly. Came back at 7 for the sucralfate and hay, and found this. As well, he’s been in the tack room, properly in (it’s tiny, I have no idea how he got in and out) and eaten an entire bag of carrots. Opened the lid to the feed bin and eaten goodness knows how much feed.

Obviously now doesn’t want to eat his breakfast with sucralfate in it and I’ll be on colic watch.

This is what happens when you are running on no more than 6 hours sleep to give drugs at the appropriate times, and heading out in a dressing gown barely conscious.

To even get to that hay he had to navigate his way around a tight space with a little tractor. Absolute devil. He’s looking extremely pleased with himself.

 

[YourValentine]

Bog!

He does look very pleased with himself. Hopefully none the worse for wear and just isn't hungry for a while

 

[Michen]

He’s honestly delighted. He still seems to want to eat some of the loose hay in the field so I assume he can’t be totally stuffed. He’s not a massive hard feed gorger so I doubt he would have eaten a ridiculous amount of grain.

But a whole bag of carrots… and how the heck he even got in there and out. They were right at the back.

 

[Emilieu]

BOG!

 

[Northern Hare]

Just a thought ref protecting Boggle's insides from the Bute, can you get psyllium husk over there, perhaps from a health food shop? My vet recommended it to be fed to my old horse to protect his stomach from Bute/Danilon. With water in the feed the psyllium husk becomes a thick gel, and it appeared to work very well.

 

[Michen]

Just a thought ref protecting Boggle's insides from the Bute, can you get psyllium husk over there, perhaps from a health food shop? My vet recommended it to be fed to my old horse to protect his stomach from Bute/Danilon. With water in the feed the psyllium husk becomes a thick gel, and it appeared to work very well.

That is such a great idea thank you. Yes we have it here as it’s regularly used for horses on dry lots ingesting dirt/sand etc. I’m not sure how it could or would interfere with the sucralfate at the moment but I’ll definitely raise it with my vet on Thursday if we decide not to PTS at that point.

 

[Pinkvboots]

I think its fine to feed with the sucralfate you just need a few hours gap between each, it's the bentonite clay that you shouldn't feed with it because they both a non laxative effect so can dry up the droppings too much.

At least he didn't bite into the bag of wood pellets whenever Louis has escaped he will bite and rip open anything he can sink his teeth into, he once nearly destroyed the lid on the recycle bin before he knocked it over and rifled through the whole thing

 

[teapot]

He’s such a git ‘yeah fine mum, what you mean I’m not meant to be here, I was tidying’.

Breathe Michen, breathe, before he gives you a heart attack!