Bramham horse trials accident

[Rowreach]

Off the top of my head, I'm just wondering when the increase in skinnies started....
I evented seriously in the 90s in the main, and there certainly weren't nearly so many skinny fences and accuracy questions

Nope, and the advent of accuracy questions and technical course design was accompanied by the increase in rotational falls. Big gallopy courses had their own issues, but as with race riding, the majority of falls resulted in riders being fired off and away from the horse and the fence, not somersaulting over the fence and being landed on by the rotating horse.

 

[st_marks]

I wonder how the horse world could improvise? Maybe going back to showjumping and dresage on grass would be the way to go.

I think it will be very, very hard to get riders to go back onto grass. Whether surfaces cause more injuries or not, people THINK it's safer and better for their horses and they want consistent, predictable footing that can be easily tweaked by show management in response to weather conditions. Two top show jumping facilities in the US have just ripped up their iconic grass Grand Prix fields and put in surfaces, and it was entirely driven by the riders. They simply scratch if the grass isn't perfect, and these shows rely on a big glitzy Grand Prix for press coverage and ticket sales, so goodbye grass, hello fancy footing.

 

[claret09]

can i also say that five people have been killed at the isle of man tt racing during the last week and that has barely made the news.

 

[neddy man]

can i also say that five people have been killed at the isle of man tt racing during the last week and that has barely made the news.

There is a thread on here about it.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I think it will be very, very hard to get riders to go back onto grass. Whether surfaces cause more injuries or not, people THINK it's safer and better for their horses and they want consistent, predictable footing that can be easily tweaked by show management in response to weather conditions. Two top show jumping facilities in the US have just ripped up their iconic grass Grand Prix fields and put in surfaces, and it was entirely driven by the riders. They simply scratch if the grass isn't perfect, and these shows rely on a big glitzy Grand Prix for press coverage and ticket sales, so goodbye grass, hello fancy footing.

They tried jump racing on the all weather surface here. It only lasted a few meetings as the injury rate was horrific. The way racehorses jump their feet slip a little on take off and again on landing when on turf. This couldn't happen on the all weather as the surface doesn't give. So a lot of horses big soft tissue damage and bone damage. When horses fell they usually broke something. Again on turf the horse slides along the grass. On all weather they hit the deck and stop. Essentially they slam into it with no give or slippage. They won't bring it back.

I know show jumping is very much more up, over, down rather than skimming over the top but you still need that slight moment of slippage which grass gives you. These surfaces just don't budge.

 

[Lucky Snowball]

Not directly relevant in this case but I am amazed how many horses doing BE80 and BE90 are nowhere near fit enough. Don't start me on rider fitness! Unfit horses and unfit riders are more likely to make mistakes.

 

[teapot]

They tried jump racing on the all weather surface here. It only lasted a few meetings as the injury rate was horrific. The way racehorses jump their feet slip a little on take off and again on landing when on turf. This couldn't happen on the all weather as the surface doesn't give. So a lot of horses big soft tissue damage and bone damage. When horses fell they usually broke something. Again on turf the horse slides along the grass. On all weather they hit the deck and stop. Essentially they slam into it with no give or slippage. They won't bring it back.

I know show jumping is very much more up, over, down rather than skimming over the top but you still need that slight moment of slippage which grass gives you. These surfaces just don't budge.

Do you know what surface they used? Proper pro surfaces can be adjusted and graded for different disciplines, so just wondering if that had been taken into account...

 

[Velcrobum]

Not directly relevant in this case but I am amazed how many horses doing BE80 and BE90 are nowhere near fit enough. Don't start me on rider fitness! Unfit horses and unfit riders are more likely to make mistakes.

And #129 !

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Do you know what surface they used? Proper pro surfaces can be adjusted and graded for different disciplines, so just wondering if that had been taken into account...

It was Southwell and it actually went on for longer than I thought it did. But the injuries and fatalities were shockingly high. When they stopped it 12 horses had died in less than 2 months. And that's before you take into account survivable injuries. It was a fibresand surface until 2021 when it changed to Tapeta. Whether it was fibresand back in the '90s I don't know.

https://www.cheltenhambettingoffers.com/articles/all-weather-jump-racing/

 

[Tiddlypom]

can i also say that five people have been killed at the isle of man tt racing during the last week and that has barely made the news.

That has made the news, especially as to whether sidecars should be allowed to continue to race at the TT, but at least all the dead were consenting adults who knew the risks. They crashed machines, not sentient animals.

 

[Birker2020]

It was Southwell and it actually went on for longer than I thought it did. But the injuries and fatalities were shockingly high. When they stopped it 12 horses had died in less than 2 months. And that's before you take into account survivable injuries. It was a fibresand surface until 2021 when it changed to Tapeta. Whether it was fibresand back in the '90s I don't know.

https://www.cheltenhambettingoffers.com/articles/all-weather-jump-racing/

Southwell was one of the highest race courses for deaths at one time, but Lingfield now is (2021) according to Racehorse Deathwatch figures from Animal Aid. They chart all the deaths on the racecourses in this country. Apparently Southwell is one of 6 racecourse that has/had fibresand surface. It was installed in 1989.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Southwell was one of the highest race courses for deaths at one time, but Lingfield now is (2021) according to Racehorse Deathwatch figures from Animal Aid. They chart all the deaths on the racecourses in this country. Apparently Southwell is one of 6 racecourse that has/had fibresand surface. It was installed in 1989.

Southwell also has a turf track for jumping and last year? Maybe the year before, went through a horrific phase of losing at least 1 horse a meeting. They moved a fence that caused a lot of problems but that didn't help. The BHA inspected every meeting and found nothing wrong with the ground or the placement of the fences. It was just really really crap time and set of coincidences. Sometimes crap does just happen. Same as at Perth, for the last 3 or 4 years a horse has been lost in the very first race of the season there. That's just purely coincidence and bad luck.

Plus racehorse deathwatch isn't always right. I have had to get them to remove 3 horses off of there over the years. The horses were injured, no they didn't race again but they went on to have useful lives away from racing.

 

[Snowfilly]

Southwell also has a turf track for jumping and last year? Maybe the year before, went through a horrific phase of losing at least 1 horse a meeting. They moved a fence that caused a lot of problems but that didn't help. The BHA inspected every meeting and found nothing wrong with the ground or the placement of the fences. It was just really really crap time and set of coincidences. Sometimes crap does just happen. Same as at Perth, for the last 3 or 4 years a horse has been lost in the very first race of the season there. That's just purely coincidence and bad luck.

Plus racehorse deathwatch isn't always right. I have had to get them to remove 3 horses off of there over the years. The horses were injured, no they didn't race again but they went on to have useful lives away from racing.

My friend was very surprised to see her ex hurdler listed on there, seeing as he was currently standing in her stables eating his head off. He’d had a heavy fall in his last race and left the track in a horse ambulance but he’d only been badly winded and bruised. He physically could have raced again but it seems like they assumed he was fatally injured because he didn’t stay in training?

 

[Birker2020]

My friend was very surprised to see her ex hurdler listed on there, seeing as he was currently standing in her stables eating his head off. He’d had a heavy fall in his last race and left the track in a horse ambulance but he’d only been badly winded and bruised. He physically could have raced again but it seems like they assumed he was fatally injured because he didn’t stay in training?

Wow

 

[milliepops]

In other words, don't believe everything you read on the Internet

 

[Fieldlife]

In other words, don't believe everything you read on the Internet

I generally take anything that is personal opinion / recollection / memory with the relevant pinch of salt.

But would kind of expect official published accident statistic to be validated, and have a relatively low error rate.

 

[milliepops]

I generally take anything that is personal opinion / recollection / memory with the relevant pinch of salt.

But would kind of expect official published accident statistic to be validated, and have a relatively low error rate.

A list provided by a group wanting to end horseracing isn't necessarily an unbiased source tho

 

[Birker2020]

I generally take anything that is personal opinion / recollection / memory with the relevant pinch of salt.

But would kind of expect official published accident statistic to be validated, and have a relatively low error rate.

Me too. And Milliepops tbh I don't think its anything to do with Animal Aid being biased. Mistakes do happen, people are only human.

 

[ester]

Of course it’s to do with their bias ???

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

My friend was very surprised to see her ex hurdler listed on there, seeing as he was currently standing in her stables eating his head off. He’d had a heavy fall in his last race and left the track in a horse ambulance but he’d only been badly winded and bruised. He physically could have raced again but it seems like they assumed he was fatally injured because he didn’t stay in training?

Yup, my hacking chum picked up an ex chaser 8yr old nearly 4 weeks ago, finished when rising 7 due to injury, went to stud as is rather good mare. Lost foal half way through and was brought back into work to sell on.
Friend dug about and found she too is on the list, was carted off in horse ambulance with tendon part cut open. Never raced again.
Mare passed vetting and is a rather nice type!

 

[Honey08]

I remember that surface- they had a BE event there one year and you had to ride down the race track to get from the lorry park to the dressage, which was a little surreal. It was a strange event, not very good and o don’t think they ran it again.

 

[Birker2020]

Of course it’s to do with their bias ???

Well I don't see any 'official figures' from anywhere. If you do feel free to share.
I think you will find that the racing board or any other official body aren't keen to share any information when it could be at detriment to the racing world and the big bucks that are generated through the sport of racing.

 

[milliepops]

the absence of any official figures (not sure whether that's right or not tbh) doesn't make the AA ones useful by default though. that 2 people just on this thread know 2 horses that are alive and well despite being recorded as dead shows what a problem there is with not checking sources. The problem is that people will buy into the agendas of pressure groups etc if they take their numbers as gospel when the truth may be quite different.

 

[ycbm]

I'll eat my hat if any on the AA dead-on-course list that aren't dead aren't matched many times over by those that were taken home alive for assessment and then shot there.
.

 

[Rowreach]

I'll eat my hat if any on the AA dead-on-course list that aren't dead aren't matched many times over by those that were taken home alive for assessment and then shot there.
.

Maybe, but one of those things is a published list which some people take as gospel (even though it clearly isn't, and is produced by an organisation with an agenda), and the other is an unknown quantity which could include those euthanased within a short time span after a racing incident or even months later, which you will never be able to calculate.

 

[ycbm]

Maybe, but one of those things is a published list which some people take as gospel (even though it clearly isn't, and is produced by an organisation with an agenda), and the other is an unknown quantity which could include those euthanased within a short time span after a racing incident or even months later, which you will never be able to calculate.

I agree, but surely it shouldn't be an unknown quantity. If the racing industry is going to use horses in this way then imo, it should be collecting and publishing accurate statistics on what happens to them.
.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I agree, but surely it shouldn't be an unknown quantity. If the racing industry is going to use horses in this way then imo, it should be collecting and publishing accurate statistics on what happens to them.
.

All passports go back to the BHA when a horse dies. You do not need to tell them why or how it died so whilst they would have accurate data of on track fatalities they will not have accurate data for horses at yards.

 

[Orangehorse]

I remember the all terrain experiment at Southwell, it promised so much but was a disaster.

I think that artificial surfaces for horses are a whole new science, because you will sometimes see that a surface for a show jumping competition is criticised by the riders as poor and not allowing the horses to jump easily.

 

[Rowreach]

I remember the all terrain experiment at Southwell, it promised so much but was a disaster.

I think that artificial surfaces for horses are a whole new science, because you will sometimes see that a surface for a show jumping competition is criticised by the riders as poor and not allowing the horses to jump easily.

Yup, when waxed surfaces first became a thing, there was much complaining by sj'ers at the different types and textures and stickiness of the surfaces. At a college near me, they requested an extra waxy surface for the indoor, to avoid having to harrow it too often. Distastrous, the number of horses that tripped on it just doing flatwork, and jumping on it was a complete nightmare. It was like riding on glue.

 

[Fieldlife]

Southwell also has a turf track for jumping and last year? Maybe the year before, went through a horrific phase of losing at least 1 horse a meeting. They moved a fence that caused a lot of problems but that didn't help. The BHA inspected every meeting and found nothing wrong with the ground or the placement of the fences. It was just really really crap time and set of coincidences. Sometimes crap does just happen. Same as at Perth, for the last 3 or 4 years a horse has been lost in the very first race of the season there. That's just purely coincidence and bad luck.

Are all all-weather race tracks bad? I thought if not waxed, they could have their own slip, like the older non waxed arena surfaces do.

I hire the all-weather track at Lingfield about once a month for faster work. Though I have noticed if they have deep harrowed it, my horses go a lot faster on the grass gallops we have access to at home.