Brave people post "good shoeing" pix please

[JessandCharlie]

I keep finding myself coming on these threads and apologising for my profession, but in this case I think it is very necessary.
There is not a good farrier out there who would not look at some of the pictures that have been posted and feel ashamed that a qualified person could be happy with what they have done.
The saddest thing of all for me is that as owners you feel that it is necessary to go and find out whether you are getting a good job done or not.
As much as it is fine to have an owner that is interested, I never think it is essential.
The job of an owner as far as I am concerned is to delegate and to enjoy!
As the owners foot manager I will call-in who ever I feel I need to keep the horse sound, balanced, and happy, all with the blessing of the head of the team, the vet
Some of the pictures I have seen make me wonder what vet ever looked down and thought that all was well.
I like to spend most of my time making sure things don’t happen, not working on things that have, but when a referral comes to me with feet that have had so called professional care and are obviously in pain, I think it is necessary to make comments in the right areas, it is not right to allow the person who did the harm to carry on without being made aware of the possible damaged they are causing.
Due to there being no minimum standard once a farrier has qualified I know of no way to combat the problem other than to get to the students before they qualify and make them more responsible for their actions.
It is a well know fact in the farriery world that, shoeing has mainly improved due to the ever rising quality of the ready-made shoe.
I have no problem with this, but please FRC (farriers registration council) stop thinking of farriery as an old craft and started to look at what is going on out in the real world, it is time we expected all farriers to be professionals and act accordingly.
Get the examination system up to date, get the right people teaching the students, and start to embrace all forms of foot management including barefoot.
End of rant and apology!

You sound like a truly excellent farrier, I hope you can get the FRC to sort out their training system so we can trust farriers without having to check up on them

I'd be happy to be trained up as a farrier by somebody this conscientious, same goes for AG, and I'm a bit of a barefoot hippy

J&C

 

[ester]

moorman I think it also doesn't help that afaik when complaints are put into the FRC about poor standards of work nothing is done (although my only knowledge of this is def through the grapevine). People should feel that when the standard of work is very poor they can do something about it other than just changing farrier in the hope that the next one would be better! I certainly think in my area that we are limited on good shoeing farriers. I liked my previous farrier a lot, unfortunately he decided he preferred Australia

 

[A Guilding]

For a long time there was a shortage of farriers and the pressure was on to get a lot of horses shod quickly. Lots of people can shoe quickly and a lot of people can shoe well, very few can shoe quickly and well. Market forces are changing and there are more hoof care professionals to choose from, Scotland still has some shortages, but in my area there are some farriers whose service has been below par, they arnt very bissy now. I am lucky that our area is served by some very good farriers who have collectively kept up the standard and as a result we have all had to maitain it to not get left behind. I have trained some excellent lads who have made me proud that there standards have been maintained after they left me and I speak to them all on a regular basis and discuss buiseness and shoeing problems. The clients benefit from that type of professionalism I beleive. The missing link is a structure for the client to be educated by informed and unbiased opinions. The one thing we can all agree is when something looks well shod it usually is.

25000 hits tells me that the clients are wanting a resource for education it has completly blown my mind that number has been achieved in three or four days.

 

[JenHunt]

firstly - I'm going to apologise for the quality of my photos. they were taken tonight in the dark on a mobile! and both horses would much rather I'd been feeding them!
secondly - the boys were shod on Monday, and I think our farrier is excellent and has done a really good job on them as they're so different, and he manages (unlike previous farriers we've had) to shoe both to their needs rather than trying to shoe every horse the same.

Fig 12 on this page will show you the result of hunter shoeing, http://www.rockfoot.com/why.html

^^ this is what Ron's feet were like when we got him. It took my farrier (who I think is excellent) several years to rectify, and to get the shoes to stay on for more than 4 weeks at a time. I wish I had photos to show you from then, but this is them now. He's got black feet in front, but the soles are part white part black (no idea why!). His off hind is wonky as he lands on the outside first, leading to the foot looking like he lives on the side of a hill.
Ron's NF

Ron's NF front view

NF underneath

OF wonky heel as a result of a very bad overreach

Ron's back feet

NH

club feet are very difficult to maintain shod or un shod.

we've had a lot of people tell us a horse with a club foot shouldn't be ridden, nevermind jumped! but I think we've done a reasonable job with Tom. he's 18 this year, and apart from when he had sidebone developing he's been sound as anything. It's interesting to note that his club foot is also on the same side as a shorter leg, leading to the club foot needing to be "longer" than the other foot. You can also see that his feet are quite elongated front to back. I don't know if this is a good or bad thing, it's just how they are.

Tom's NF

NF from underneath (apologies for the bedding!)

both fronts (sort of)

You sound like a truly excellent farrier, I hope you can get the FRC to sort out their training system so we can trust farriers without having to check up on them

I quite agree, and thank you to AG, moorman and cptrayes for such an interesting thread!

 

[Tamba]

I keep finding myself coming on these threads and apologising for my profession, but in this case I think it is very necessary.
There is not a good farrier out there who would not look at some of the pictures that have been posted and feel ashamed that a qualified person could be happy with what they have done.
The saddest thing of all for me is that as owners you feel that it is necessary to go and find out whether you are getting a good job done or not.
As much as it is fine to have an owner that is interested, I never think it is essential.
The job of an owner as far as I am concerned is to delegate and to enjoy!
As the owners foot manager I will call-in who ever I feel I need to keep the horse sound, balanced, and happy, all with the blessing of the head of the team, the vet
Some of the pictures I have seen make me wonder what vet ever looked down and thought that all was well.
I like to spend most of my time making sure things don’t happen, not working on things that have, but when a referral comes to me with feet that have had so called professional care and are obviously in pain, I think it is necessary to make comments in the right areas, it is not right to allow the person who did the harm to carry on without being made aware of the possible damaged they are causing.
Due to there being no minimum standard once a farrier has qualified I know of no way to combat the problem other than to get to the students before they qualify and make them more responsible for their actions.
It is a well know fact in the farriery world that, shoeing has mainly improved due to the ever rising quality of the ready-made shoe.
I have no problem with this, but please FRC (farriers registration council) stop thinking of farriery as an old craft and started to look at what is going on out in the real world, it is time we expected all farriers to be professionals and act accordingly.
Get the examination system up to date, get the right people teaching the students, and start to embrace all forms of foot management including barefoot.
End of rant and apology!

I would just about move house, to get a decent farrier, who REALLY knew and you could trust, i have watched the heels of my horses feet get lower and lower, but there is absolutely nothing you can do, I know how people feel, that have ended up with a devastating situation, through bad farriery, its really not fair and more than that its cruel to the poor animal, whos probably both walking around imbalanced, at worst in pain, and being worked like this.... what a terrible shame in this daya age, when medicine, techology, etc, have all moved up so much, yet this type of injury is going on by farriers.
I totally understand, if you , who can see bad workmanship feeling upset, as anyone not even qualified, feel the pain of some of these owners.(me included, who probably may have to sell, my horse, as I have no farrier, who has any idea how to deal with his box foot, yet he was happy and sound when I bought him... its crazy! sorry, I apologise, rant over!!!

 

[trina1982]

25000 hits tells me that the clients are wanting a resource for education it has completly blown my mind that number has been achieved in three or four days.

Well, lets just hope the right people take note!
I have a feeling this thread is far from running it's course too

 

[whisp&willow]

I would just about move house, to get a decent farrier, who REALLY knew and you could trust, i have watched the heels of my horses feet get lower and lower, but there is absolutely nothing you can do, I know how people feel, that have ended up with a devastating situation, through bad farriery, its really not fair and more than that its cruel to the poor animal, whos probably both walking around imbalanced, at worst in pain, and being worked like this.... what a terrible shame in this daya age, when medicine, techology, etc, have all moved up so much, yet this type of injury is going on by farriers.
I totally understand, if you , who can see bad workmanship feeling upset, as anyone not even qualified, feel the pain of some of these owners.(me included, who probably may have to sell, my horse, as I have no farrier, who has any idea how to deal with his box foot, yet he was happy and sound when I bought him... its crazy! sorry, I apologise, rant over!!!

i found it VERY hard to find and keep a good farrier while i lived in Aberdeen.
any time i got one that i felt did a good job they were very punctual for the first few shoeings, then went AWOL! the problem i feel is that many of the young lads who are newly qualified make a fast buck, (esp in areas where there are few farriers and lots of horses) and thats what they do it for- not a passion for horses feet! my farrier at home takes a long time to even choose his next lad- they come and stay with him for a while and he'l only take them on if they realy have a passion for horses.

 

[Clava]

This thread would make the basis for such a useful and interesting book, a guide for horse owner's as to what to look for when a horse is shod.

Thankyou to all those that have contributed.

 

[TigerTail]

The saddest thing of all for me is that as owners you feel that it is necessary to go and find out whether you are getting a good job done or not.
As much as it is fine to have an owner that is interested, I never think it is essential.
The job of an owner as far as I am concerned is to delegate and to enjoy!

In a perfect world yes - however, as has been proven by this thread, it is not practical to place all your faith in a professional as A they are human and B some have massive gaps in their knowledge of their profession.

I learnt the hard way from a BF trimmer that to blindly trust the professional is a bad idea and if you are worried something is wrong, go off and educate yourself so you know you are getting the best possible care for your horse.

 

[ThePony]

This thread would make the basis for such a useful and interesting book, a guide for horse owner's as to what to look for when a horse is shod.

Thankyou to all those that have contributed.

Def is a very useful and interesting thread (even as a comitted barefooter lol!).


In terms of 'further reading' I have these two books and find them absolutly excellent:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/No-Foot-Hor...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328788330&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Feet-First-...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328788347&sr=1-1

The first is very shoes orientated and the second is directed towards those interested in barefoot - but I find them both together give an excellent base to hoof health in general, regardless of what you do/do not decide to attach to them.

 

[Tamba]

Def is a very useful and interesting thread (even as a comitted barefooter lol!).


In terms of 'further reading' I have these two books and find them absolutly excellent:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/No-Foot-Hor...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328788330&sr=1-1

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Feet-First-...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328788347&sr=1-1

The first is very shoes orientated and the second is directed towards those interested in barefoot - but I find them both together give an excellent base to hoof health in general, regardless of what you do/do not decide to attach to them.

Off to order, these, thanks very much for the recommendation, knowledge is power and all that !!!!!!!!

 

[amandap]

I keep finding myself coming on these threads and apologising for my profession, but in this case I think it is very necessary.
There is not a good farrier out there who would not look at some of the pictures that have been posted and feel ashamed that a qualified person could be happy with what they have done.

I don't think you should feel ashamed for other individuals work but can understand. You are sharing information and experience that many of us are very grateful for.
Hopefully this well viewed thread will start some thinking and action in relevant circles. Always the optimist.

I do disagree somewhat about owners being purely delegators though. Imo this role is fine for dealing with non living objects or processes but anyone becoming responsible for the care of any animal should take that role seriously and educate themselves to some extent so they can make informed choices about the professionals they use. Professionals are human and subject to human traits so there will always be those who are less than ideal, purely because of their individual nature, motivation and philosophy. Training and skill level is another aspect.

 

[tallyho!]

firstly - I'm going to apologise for the quality of my photos. they were taken tonight in the dark on a mobile! and both horses would much rather I'd been feeding them!
secondly - the boys were shod on Monday, and I think our farrier is excellent and has done a really good job on them as they're so different, and he manages (unlike previous farriers we've had) to shoe both to their needs rather than trying to shoe every horse the same.



^^ this is what Ron's feet were like when we got him. It took my farrier (who I think is excellent) several years to rectify, and to get the shoes to stay on for more than 4 weeks at a time. I wish I had photos to show you from then, but this is them now. He's got black feet in front, but the soles are part white part black (no idea why!). His off hind is wonky as he lands on the outside first, leading to the foot looking like he lives on the side of a hill.
Ron's NF

Ron's NF front view

NF underneath

OF wonky heel as a result of a very bad overreach

Ron's back feet

NH

we've had a lot of people tell us a horse with a club foot shouldn't be ridden, nevermind jumped! but I think we've done a reasonable job with Tom. he's 18 this year, and apart from when he had sidebone developing he's been sound as anything. It's interesting to note that his club foot is also on the same side as a shorter leg, leading to the club foot needing to be "longer" than the other foot. You can also see that his feet are quite elongated front to back. I don't know if this is a good or bad thing, it's just how they are.

Tom's NF

NF from underneath (apologies for the bedding!)

both fronts (sort of)

I quite agree, and thank you to AG, moorman and cptrayes for such an interesting thread!

I'm just a horse owner with a hoof-obsession so hardly an expert but I would be quite happy with Ron's feet. Good frog and not a mile off the ground as mine was previously shod.

Tom's "club foot" is really interesting because my vet thought M had "club foot" too (reason for my obsession) and I did lots of research into it. I assume Tom had this from birth? M didn't as both legs were the same length but was short on that shoulder so we never knew what was causing the angle. Chicken & egg situation... I'm going to try and find a photo as show you how he was shod on the assumption of concussion lami (??) (when actually he had navicular ) and the result. Bear with....

 

[Oberon]

I think the reason for a club foot should be examined rather than just put it down to one leg shorter than the other.

My experience is that one STRIDE is shorter than the other.

This is often due to a body issue higher up.

I've seen a dreadful club foot that was 'corrected' until the horses developed navicular and thousands spent on treatment....when taking the shoes off and getting a body worker fixed it! Hoof is now normal!

 

[A Guilding]

My experience is that one STRIDE is shorter than the other

Is it? I would be interested in your opinions as to how that happens?

 

[Oberon]

Is it? I would be interested in your opinions as to how that happens?

Muscle pain restricting the stride.

 

[A Guilding]

Muscle pain restricting the stride.

For another thread and we will have that debate

 

[Oberon]

No thanks. I am entitled to my opinion, as are you.

I simply think seeing a club foot and immediately believing it will always be that way and there's nothing you can do about it is doing the horse a disservice.

The owner should at least spend £50 on a decent body worker first.

 

[cptrayes]

!

Jen I know your farrier has been able to keep this horse sound for you, and that for him it may be correct, but these heels look very unbalanced to me - longer on the right hand side, or is it an optical illusion?

 

[cptrayes]

No thanks. I am entitled to my opinion, as are you.

I simply think seeing a club foot and immediately believing it will always be that way and there's nothing you can do about it is doing the horse a disservice.

The owner should at least spend £50 on a decent body worker first.

I totally agree with this. In my friend's case her mare has one front leg shorter than the other, measured from the elbow joint to the ergot. But it is not always the reason for a club foot. Since the horse's front legs are not joined to its skeleton, only held on by soft tissue, there could be a multitude of body issues that could cause a leg to act "as if" it is shorter than the other and produce a club foot.

 

[ester]

when my back gets stiff my left leg is/appears shorter, presumably if a horses shoulder was stiff this would result in that leg poss being held slightly higher resulting in a 'shorter' leg?

 

[JenHunt]

I'm just a horse owner with a hoof-obsession so hardly an expert but I would be quite happy with Ron's feet. Good frog and not a mile off the ground as mine was previously shod.

Tom's "club foot" is really interesting because my vet thought M had "club foot" too (reason for my obsession) and I did lots of research into it. I assume Tom had this from birth? M didn't as both legs were the same length but was short on that shoulder so we never knew what was causing the angle. Chicken & egg situation... I'm going to try and find a photo as show you how he was shod on the assumption of concussion lami (??) (when actually he had navicular ) and the result. Bear with....

Tom's foot has certainly been like that all the time we've had him (since he was rising 5). I believe that he's been like that since birth.

Jen I know your farrier has been able to keep this horse sound for you, and that for him it may be correct, but these heels look very unbalanced to me - longer on the right hand side, or is it an optical illusion?

His heels are uneven - he lands on the outside of that foot first and sort of twists it. when we first had him he'd been shod to make them even (as one would suspect he should have been). but he kept twisting the shoe round and then being not quite right behind. the farrier suggested we left his hinds off for some time (which only worked as he was off work due to a mega overreach - scar still visible, just, on his heel). when the farrier came to put shoes on the hinds it was obvious that the heels 'needed' to be uneven to keep his movement true. so yes, they are unbalanced but for him it's what's needed. well spotted!

 

[viola]

I totally agree with this. In my friend's case her mare has one front leg shorter than the other, measured from the elbow joint to the ergot. But it is not always the reason for a club foot. Since the horse's front legs are not joined to its skeleton, only held on by soft tissue, there could be a multitude of body issues that could cause a leg to act "as if" it is shorter than the other and produce a club foot.

That's interesting. I've ridden a PRE with a club foot (although not severe) and all my schooling work with him was focused on working him evenly through both shoulders. Body Worker also found him sore/tight in the same shoulder for several months. Once I figured out how to help him use his tight shoulder better, Body Worker found him pain free in it. About the same time, his foot started re-modelling into much better, normal shape. What's interesting though, his other foot was perhaps a bit flat and longer in toe but about the same time as he became even and loser in his shoulders his flatter foot started to change too, taking more upright shape.
His attitude to work (reaction off the leg, relaxation) improved too. He was barefoot when these changes were taking place.

Edited to say: I wish I thought about measuring his legs :-D!

 

[JenHunt]

my understanding of a club foot is that it can be caused by an excessive tightness in the tendons/ligaments/muscles in the limb during development in utero, causing the structure of the hoof to become contracted and 'boxy'.
I also understand that it can be caused by abnormal development (due to trauma often) as a foal and during growth spurts.

but - that's only a very basic understanding. the former ties with how Tom's legs are. the one with the club foot is shorter, but all the tendons stand out a mile, and you can feel the ones around his fetlock really clearly, but you can't on the other leg so much. almost like the whole leg has been squashed and gone bulgy. (can't describe it better, sorry!). he's also wonky all over... he's missing a tooth on the same side and twists his head to make the bit feel even in his mouth (doesn't twist in a bitless, but then you can't stop him!), he bucks in canter if restricted on the left rein, but not the right, and he walks like a banana if left to his own devices. The vet, physio in chiro cannot find any signs of pain, tightness or discomfort in him, it's just the way he is!

 

[Clava]

My point is I don’t think I should have to study plumbing in order to know if I have had my boiler fitted correctly, I have at some point to rely on the professional who is charging for the job.
Now I fully agree that there is always the question of how do we know if we have a good vet/farrier etc, (as this thread has proved) and I can only say that I will never stop working towards trying to get a minimum standard within my profession so that an owner may chose a farrier for other reasons than competence.
!

... there is usually only one way to fit a boiler (a few ways to join pipes, but as long as they don't leak there is no issue), but there seems to be many ways of fitting a shoe and being able to spot issues early when something is going wrong with the way a farrier is shoeing is extremely important, but these things go unchecked because owners trust their professionals and do not have easily accessible reference material to check it or even question it. I think owners need to know what good shoeing looks like but in 40 years of ownership I personally have never been taught it (fortunately mine are barefoot now so nolonger an issue).

 

[tallyho!]

Tom's foot has certainly been like that all the time we've had him (since he was rising 5). I believe that he's been like that since birth.

See, I wish my pro's knew that or I don't think my boy would have gone through so much pain!!

Here is my apparently "box/club foot horse" being treated just after "concussion lami" 4years ago...

I wince now how far the nails were driven up and how high those heels were - you can't see the contraction as I was uneducated and only had an inkling that something was not "right". The angle trying to grow down is very telling though don't you think? You can clearly see this is not a congenital case now. I think your farrier is doing a good job with Tom.

 

[tallyho!]

I could not agree more with all you have said.
But if this thread has proved anything to me it is that if all owners were to go and study all equine disciplines there would still be a great variation in opinions.
The finest owner I ever worked for was an eminent London lawyer, who decided to take up riding, he got a vet, myself, and a saddler in his yard, asked us to look at a horse he was thinking of buying and to advise him on where he went from here. The professionals got together and realised we were going to be responsible for the wellbeing of this animal, a job we all took, and still take very seriously.
We all keep in touch with each other and will voice any concerns we have.
The vet remarked just after Xmas that in the 6 years we have looked after this client horses he has spent less than all his other equine clients.
What I am trying to say is that if the owner is skilled in delegation it does relieve the need for knowledge, and can lead to a successful outcome.
My point is I don’t think I should have to study plumbing in order to know if I have had my boiler fitted correctly, I have at some point to rely on the professional who is charging for the job.
Now I fully agree that there is always the question of how do we know if we have a good vet/farrier etc, (as this thread has proved) and I can only say that I will never stop working towards trying to get a minimum standard within my profession so that an owner may chose a farrier for other reasons than competence.
Maybe we could start with a farrier having to shoe a horse all round in the way that he/her is going to do it for a living when they take there final exam, if this means using readymade shoes then’ bring them on’. We are now in the year 2012 not 1860!!!
Something about this thread really gets me going, sorry!

Well yes, quite Moorman, because each experience is unique. As is each horse within the parameters it is programmed to survive of course...

However, despite having a trusty plumber, I quite like to know a bit about plumbing because you can get ripped off if you don't! LOL and that if translated into hooves - well I got ripped right off not knowing about hooves and almost killed my horse in the process - not really a like for like, right?

No, owners should learn as much as poss, discuss differences and be open minded despite varying opinions. Why is that a bad thing?

And why can't it be curriculum that a farrier learns how to keep a horse performing sound without shoes before learning how to keep one performing sound in shoes?

 

[cptrayes]

His heels are uneven - he lands on the outside of that foot first and sort of twists it. when we first had him he'd been shod to make them even (as one would suspect he should have been). but he kept twisting the shoe round and then being not quite right behind. the farrier suggested we left his hinds off for some time (which only worked as he was off work due to a mega overreach - scar still visible, just, on his heel). when the farrier came to put shoes on the hinds it was obvious that the heels 'needed' to be uneven to keep his movement true. so yes, they are unbalanced but for him it's what's needed. well spotted!

For me this is a mark of a truly great farrier. He has watched the horse, listened to the horse and not attempted to impose his own idea of symmetry on the horse.

The difficulty is for the ordinary mortal to understand when this would be a bodge job by a bad farrier and when it is a great job by a skilled farrier. If your farrier shoes your horse with this kind of imbalance but cannot explain why, challenge him/her!

 

[tallyho!]

I am not for one moment saying that owner knowledge is a bad thing, I just feel it is wrong if it has to be a necessity.
Not all owners want to learn the finer points of: farriery, nutrition, saddlery, veterinary work, land management, even riding.
Some just want to own, I feel it is right that if they wish to they should not be let down by professionals who can’t maintain a minimum standard.
I would love all farrier students to understand about barefoot, and there is a lot of work being done to promote that.
What worries me is I get send students in there last year who want to spend some time working with me, and it worries me how many of them already have opinions on things they have not yet seen!
I long for the day when farrier students (like vets) will go to a college for 3 years before being placed with a master. This way the master will find out what is being taught, and the student will be able to explore more than just one method within his profession.
There are many systems of barefoot being taught now that surpass all teaching in the farriers colleges when it comes to biomechanics, nutrition and anatomy.

I agree, but it's just not like that sadly is it. I aslso just wanted to "own" and have the pleasure of doing just that with the latest horse... instead I got a lesson in hooves People can ring the changes though... it just needs the right amount of pressure to change.

 

[quirky]

Oberon - I have seen a foal on the ground, before he had even stood and he had a club foot. How can that be caused by stride or higher pain when he hadn't even walked?