Brave people post "good shoeing" pix please

[A Guilding]

Oberon - I have seen a foal on the ground, before he had even stood and he had a club foot. How can that be caused by stride or higher pain when he hadn't even walked?

This isnt the thread for this, There are 3 reasons for club feet, Hereditary, Congenital, or Acquired. Horses can have asymmetric feet that arnt club feet, It is a debatable point and the jury is out on whether they can have different lengths of stride, I think they can but not by much otherwise they would go in circles or split down the middle. The club foot follows different biomechanical rules to the asymmetric (slightly boxy foot) Oberon I wasnt getting at you quite the reverse.

 

[cptrayes]

It is a debatable point and the jury is out on whether they can have different lengths of stride, I think they can but not by much otherwise they would go in circles or split down the middle.

That jury can't know a lot about horses A G

It would only be true that a horse cannot move in a straight line with a different stride length if the horse never had a moment of suspension when all four feet are off the floor and the body is moving forwards over the ground. And that that moment of suspension can, and is, used by the horse to make adjustments to keep itself straight.

Of course, it's also the case that in trot, the pace most often used to diagnose lameness, the diagonally opposite foot can compensate. As I'm sure you will have seen, horse who are lame very often show changes in the diagonally opposite foot, especially when the lameness is on the back.

So it is perfectly possible for the horses body to move forwards in the air during the moment of suspension with both sides covering an equal distance but for the horse to place a foot down short.

Just in case you really never have seen a horse take a markedly different length stride with the hind feet, yet be perfectly straight and sound to ride a dressage competition (and win) I can point you to a dozen videos of the horse that I gave away because he has spavin. I guess the experts who have worked out that it isn't possible didn't get round to telling him yet ?

 

[Sults]

Would it be possible for someone to explain what (in an ideal world!) a farrier should do when shoeing a horse. Assuming the feet are fairly decent and they are not trying to correct anything! Just would like a basic outline pleeease?

What should they do to the frog & sole? Wall?
Where should the shoe be placed?
how much rasping of the wall to finish off is actually required.

And any pics of wonderful shod feet would be very grateful

 

[paddy555]

I am not for one moment saying that owner knowledge is a bad thing, I just feel it is wrong if it has to be a necessity.
Not all owners want to learn the finer points of: farriery, nutrition, saddlery, veterinary work, land management, even riding.
Some just want to own, I feel it is right that if they wish to they should not be let down by professionals who can’t maintain a minimum standard.

in a perfect world perhaps but not in the real world. How do you know if you can trust a professional unless you have some idea of the subject? Besides it is interesting learning all this sort of stuff about horses and part of ownership and riding. Also it is extremely cost effective when you consider the amount of money wasted on various feeds, supplements etc etc etc.

 

[Clava]

in a perfect world perhaps but not in the real world. How do you know if you can trust a professional unless you have some idea of the subject? Besides it is interesting learning all this sort of stuff about horses and part of ownership and riding. Also it is extremely cost effective when you consider the amount of money wasted on various feeds, supplements etc etc etc.

Just as owners want and need to know what is good nutrition for their horses (you certainly can't trust the feed companies to just tell you), I think the same applies to shoeing, but there is a serious lack of information out there.

 

[ThePony]

in a perfect world perhaps but not in the real world. How do you know if you can trust a professional unless you have some idea of the subject? Besides it is interesting learning all this sort of stuff about horses and part of ownership and riding. Also it is extremely cost effective when you consider the amount of money wasted on various feeds, supplements etc etc etc.

I do agree with this in principle - you need to fit your idiot filter and have an idea if what is going on with your horse is right. But, the average horse owner would need to have an incredibly wide knowledge. Saddle fitting, bitting, feet, dentisty, worming, nutrition, vets, grassland management, stable maintenence, school surfaces, training etc. Add to that things you need to know in your everyday life and job, and quite frankly there aren't enough hours in the day and we just have to start somewhere - for alot of people, using a recommended farrier is that starting point. There has to be trust in the relationship.

We all aim to build up our knowledge, but we all have to trust a professional at some point to do the right thing by our horse. This thread alone shows what a wide range 'correct' shoeing fits into - the information needed in just this area of horse ownership is just mind boggling and beyond the reach of your average owner rider I think.

 

[amandap]

We all aim to build up our knowledge, but we all have to trust a professional at some point to do the right thing by our horse. This thread alone shows what a wide range 'correct' shoeing fits into - the information needed in just this area of horse ownership is just mind boggling and beyond the reach of your average owner rider I think.

I think this is true to some extent. Also thinking of moormans' client that got professionals together, this is the ideal but does have financial implications which makes it difficult for many of us. I do think a team approach is fab and should be encouraged. In this it's the owner/carer who is in the best position to observe and see response to interventions imo.
I still believe owners do need to assume responsibility when they take on care of any animal. It's easy to shove this off onto professionals and blame them when things go wrong. We must remember we appoint them and in the end the buck stops with us. Owners pushing for better quality care and questioning is one way to improve standards. Answers such as "Oh he's a tb or this is just horses" etc. should be challenged imo they are not a valid answers imo that are helpful to the owner or horse.

I suppose getting an idea of pointers to problems is a start. For me repeated lameness/footyness, negative/resistive behavioural changes or patterns and regular body issues are big red flags that something is wrong fundamentally and should prompt questioning and extra specific learning along with professional consultation.
It seems to me that some horses seem to lurch from one crisis to another and these are dealt with individually rather than trying to step back and see the bigger picture.

 

[quirky]

This isnt the thread for this, There are 3 reasons for club feet, Hereditary, Congenital, or Acquired. Horses can have asymmetric feet that arnt club feet, It is a debatable point and the jury is out on whether they can have different lengths of stride, I think they can but not by much otherwise they would go in circles or split down the middle. The club foot follows different biomechanical rules to the asymmetric (slightly boxy foot) Oberon I wasnt getting at you quite the reverse.

Sorry, I shall consider myself suitably admonished .

* Slopes off to find the more polite area of the forum *

 

[KatB]

This is all very interesting, and for what it's worth, I have pretty much agreed with everything cptrayes has said so far

There are plenty of farriers out there who unfortunately do shoe "to keep customers happy" as opposed to keeping the horse happy. This includes shoeing to keep shoes on (eg no heel support/fitting them to the edge of the foot at that time) and making the foot look pretty, but not taking into consideration the condition of the foot itself.

I am very ware of how my horses feet look, from a "performance" point of view, and get on well with my farrier as he will discuss why he's doing things, will do what I would request he look at doing without me asking, and is basically a very good farrier. I have fallen out with an excellent farrier, as unfortunately he wouldn't stop sending his apprentice out to shoe, who repeatedly ignored my requests to give the horse mopre heel support, as the horse had previous pulled shoes!!

 

[viola]

This thread alone shows what a wide range 'correct' shoeing fits into - the information needed in just this area of horse ownership is just mind boggling and beyond the reach of your average owner rider I think.

It might be right that to understand all ins and outs of all variations is way beyond an average owner-rider but most will have 1-2 horses and learning what's good for them might just be within their capabilities.

I've just recommended this thread to a few of my riders doing BHS exams. I think it's a fantastic resource for all BHS students/future instructors. It is incredible how much you can change the horse's way of going and in turn the rider's way of sitting/riding when the feet are in good condition. It would be great to see the manuals going into much more detail.

 

[cptrayes]

Would it be possible for someone to explain what (in an ideal world!) a farrier should do when shoeing a horse. Assuming the feet are fairly decent and they are not trying to correct anything! Just would like a basic outline pleeease?

What should they do to the frog & sole? Wall?
Where should the shoe be placed?
how much rasping of the wall to finish off is actually required.

And any pics of wonderful shod feet would be very grateful

This isn't possible I'm afraid Sults, for two reasons. The first is that every horse is different and what is good shoeing for one might be very poor shoeing for another, even if the two look like bog standard horses to shoe.

The second is that farriers differ in their shoeing methods and there is no absolute right or wrong, for example, about where the shoe fits on the toe, how far back behind the heel it should stick out, how wide it should fit at the heel, whether flat shoes, fullered shoes, Natural Balance shoes or Cytek shoes should be used, whether to fit inside the outer edge of the foot and rasp back to the shoe or not, etc etc.

The best advice I could give is that if you aren't happy about what your farrier is doing, ask until you are happy that what he is doing is correct, or until he changes what he is doing. If neither of those things happen, change your farrier. (This is not easy at all from some people in some parts of the country which are short of good farriers.)

 

[Sults]

Yes i do see what you mean.

Thing is, my boy (rising 7yr, TB) is having shoes on for the first time next month. He has never been shod but at the level he will be competing at this summer i do want him to have studs in.

His sole and frogs look good, so should the farrier not need to touch these?

 

[cptrayes]

"for" not "from"

 

[A Guilding]

That jury can't know a lot about horses A G

It would only be true that a horse cannot move in a straight line with a different stride length if the horse never had a moment of suspension when all four feet are off the floor and the body is moving forwards over the ground. And that that moment of suspension can, and is, used by the horse to make adjustments to keep itself straight.

Of course, it's also the case that in trot, the pace most often used to diagnose lameness, the diagonally opposite foot can compensate. As I'm sure you will have seen, horse who are lame very often show changes in the diagonally opposite foot, especially when the lameness is on the back.

So it is perfectly possible for the horses body to move forwards in the air during the moment of suspension with both sides covering an equal distance but for the horse to place a foot down short.

Just in case you really never have seen a horse take a markedly different length stride with the hind feet, yet be perfectly straight and sound to ride a dressage competition (and win) I can point you to a dozen videos of the horse that I gave away because he has spavin. I guess the experts who have worked out that it isn't possible didn't get round to telling him yet ?

I am 100% in agreement with you, There are a raft of papers that have used treadmills and high speed cameras that say no significant difference in stride length, but i think there is.

 

[A Guilding]

I will try and put some photos together next week of what we look for in a shod horse at each process if any one is interested. we use different marker points on the hoof to identify where to put the shoe. not fool proof but a good guide.

 

[A Guilding]

Sorry, I shall consider myself suitably admonished .

* Slopes off to find the more polite area of the forum *

Appoligies that wasn't my intention, It is an area that interests me a lot and could fill the same number of pages. I am crap at posting and typing and love to help.

 

[sbloom]

Yes i do see what you mean.

Thing is, my boy (rising 7yr, TB) is having shoes on for the first time next month. He has never been shod but at the level he will be competing at this summer i do want him to have studs in.

His sole and frogs look good, so should the farrier not need to touch these?

I would personally think long and hard about whether he really needs them:

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2010/06/some-horses-dont-need-studs.html

There are lots of posts on this blog about eventing and studs - I think if horses can hunt around Exmoor barefoot then most eventing will be a doddle, though I understand the SJ section is probably the most challenging.

 

[Oberon]

Oberon - I have seen a foal on the ground, before he had even stood and he had a club foot. How can that be caused by stride or higher pain when he hadn't even walked?

They can be born with them - some theories are due to nutritional imbalance via the mare.

It can correct or improve with sympathetic hoof care - but what can happen is that there is aggressive treatment to correct it that can compromise the hoof and end up making things worse

I guess my point is, "Sometimes but not always" is a good rule to live by with horses

 

[trina1982]

I will try and put some photos together next week of what we look for in a shod horse at each process if any one is interested. we use different marker points on the hoof to identify where to put the shoe. not fool proof but a good guide.

Yep, i'm interested!

 

[tallyho!]

I will try and put some photos together next week of what we look for in a shod horse at each process if any one is interested. we use different marker points on the hoof to identify where to put the shoe. not fool proof but a good guide.

Thanks, that would be really good A G!

 

[quirky]

Oberon - As it was noticed early, the farrier didn't try and correct it as such, he worked with the foot at the shape it chose to grow, iyswim.

 

[Kiristamm]

Sorry forgot to put page up:
http://www.rockfoot.com/why.html

Is this website you? I referenced it in my dissertation! what a coincident.

 

[Kiristamm]

I did! my lecturers were very interested in it

 

[JenHunt]

For me this is a mark of a truly great farrier. He has watched the horse, listened to the horse and not attempted to impose his own idea of symmetry on the horse.

The difficulty is for the ordinary mortal to understand when this would be a bodge job by a bad farrier and when it is a great job by a skilled farrier. If your farrier shoes your horse with this kind of imbalance but cannot explain why, challenge him/her!

I didn't need to challenge my farrier about it - this is one of the things that makes me trust his judgement. He went out of his way to explain it, until he was blue in the face, to make sure I understood and was happy before he even started to put a shoe back on!

we then tried 6 weeks (as you may remember) of barefoot behind for Ron in the summer. the farrier said he wouldn't cope, I blindly thought he would, but agreed that if, after 6 weeks he wasn't coping then the shoes would go back on. In all fairness, the farrier was right. Ron didn't cope very well, but I'm sure that was partly down to my naivety in how we worked him. But - it did tell me a lot about Ron, and the farrier. He was right, and Ron's feet did not change shape at all (he was out 24/7 at the time and in moderate work) - which suggests to me that he is being shod how his foot would choose to be, just that they like the protection the shoe affords them.

I will try and put some photos together next week of what we look for in a shod horse at each process if any one is interested. we use different marker points on the hoof to identify where to put the shoe. not fool proof but a good guide.

would be very interested!

 

[foxy1]

I will try and put some photos together next week of what we look for in a shod horse at each process if any one is interested. we use different marker points on the hoof to identify where to put the shoe. not fool proof but a good guide.

I would love to see this too. This is a great thread, thanks to all who have contributed

 

[KSR]

Heres a photo of the outside the shoeing before last.. Equally as scary as the X-rays but worlds better than previous farrier.. He's been Almost sound since April 2010.. Uncomfortable days but mainly thinks he's fine.. I'll post steward clog pics after his imminent visit if anyone is interested.. He has no filler now..

And this is why we fight

 

[cptrayes]

Heres a photo of the outside the shoeing before last.. Equally as scary as the X-rays but worlds better than previous farrier.. He's been Almost sound since April 2010.. Uncomfortable days but mainly thinks he's fine.. I'll post steward clog pics after his imminent visit if anyone is interested.. He has no filler now..

KSR can you remind us briefly what his problems were? They were obviously VERY compromised feet, from where the growth lines are running. If you follow the line on the toe it goes down the to a point well under his foot - in other words, to grow this foot he was putting out heel at least twice as quickly as he was putting out toe. I beleive that's characteristic of a chronic laminitic? You look lucky that he has enough quality of horn to hold the shoeing to put his feet right.

I'd certainly like to see pictures of clogs, I haven't a clue what they are

 

[amandap]

Info about Steward clogs. http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/cms/steward-clog-instruction-guide.html

I have an online friend whose horse was fitted with these. In the end she went down the barefoot route with a very experienced trimmer and help from metabolic experts in diet etc. The horse is doing well but it hasn't been and isn't easy.

 

[KSR]

I bought him as an obese rising 4yo with no lust for life.. Flat feet, flared, passed vetting no problem.. He was just mildly concerned about a scar from the back of his pastern, across his heel bulb and just joining the back of his hoof.. No lameness and no previous admitted..

His current farrier began working with him when he was 5.. His toes were all brought back and his feet gradually corrected and he was put in NB shoes.. I was made aware at this point that he must have had Lami in the past whether dietary (likely with his super show condition) or mechanical or another cause as there was separation of the wall from underlying tissue at the toe at this time already.. He was extremely sensitive without shoes.. So he was managed accordingly wrt diet, restricted grazing etc and he was exercised at least 4 times a week.. His weight by this time was the lighter side of normal and has mostly stated that way barring a few months of being very thin.. I have always tried to keep the weight off as his hooves are so compromised and he's worked regularly but not competed or ridden to excess or fast hacking on roads etc..

YO moved to France, farrier moved out of the country and I spent years struggling with farriers who couldn't make their minds up what to do, wouldn't listen to me and gradually his toes were getting longer and longer again and more flared.. They've had him in and out of bar shoes several times.. Through everything he stayed sound..

I had 3 farrier changes due to yard moves, 1 due to him trying to get me in a stable for his own entertainment plus taking ack shoes off and crippling horse, and 1 cos my placid mild mannered horse wouldn't let him near him..

He was sound until September/October 2010 when I noticed him pecking whilst walking down a hill.. Took him straight off all turnout and let him have hay in the barn/turnout yard only.. Vet unconcerned, just advised to rest.. A few weeks later his sole dropped and farrier put him back in barshoes which made him increasingly crippled.. He packed in the shoe with purple plasticky stuff.. On box rest and bute from vet.. X-rays in the November showed

I'd spent the whole time telling him repeatedly about the horses feet, how they were made up, how they'd always had to be maintained and asked loads of questions but although I was answered I was never really listened too.. I was already searching for my original farrier leaving messages everywhere that I had to have him to see my horse at any financial cost.. Horse not getting any better, vet said the heart bars weren't agreeing with him and they needed to come off.. Farrier carried on doing what he was doing.. Also asked repeatedly about putting back shoes back on to be told no he is fine.. Was enquiring about any other farrier by this point and toying with putting horse to sleep.. Decided to give it one last go and finally found original farrier..

He came to view, looked at X-rays, spent an hour or so just looking, watching horse move and asking loads of questions.. This is normal in our case now.. Came back from Brighton 2 weeks later to try to help.. Natural balance shoes back on, and shoes on back, horse instantly comfortable and walking around freely.. Horse was in shoes more than 2 sizes bigger than he should be by this point..

Since April 2011 he has been off any pain meds apart from the odd off day off box rest and loose in the yard again, occasional turnout in bare paddock with muzzle so he can't eat if he gets too excitable and slowly but surely the feet are coming back together.. Originally half the sole was rotten, I'll post pics when I'm home, and you could feel pretty much all the way up between his hoof wall and underlying structures.. This is now halfway grown out and his frogs and soles are much better quality, not depressable with your finger and much less dropped.. Seem to be trying to heal themselves.. Angles are much improving too..

There is so much I've not said and more ill remember and just taking it a day at a time and hope he doesn't deteriorate.. He wouldn't survive it cos I couldn't put him through it again..

We will be moving to Devon soon, keeping the same farrier and will be going through all the new forage analysis stuff again and starting from scratch from that respect..

At the minute he is Lucky he is still with me, but I won't hesitate to pts if farrier and I agree he's had enough or goes backwards.. We feel whilst he is content as he is and the light is in his eyes he deserves the chance..

 

[KSR]

Sorry, that's not brief

Always flat soled, toes too long and flared..

Corrected at 5-7..

7-10 let go and messed about by a few farriers, one in particular..

Led to long toes, flared sides, sudden mild lameness progressing to one severely and suddenly dropped sole with pedal rotation, compromised strength of horn, lots of space between wall and inner structures, soft poor quality sole and angle of horn growing down very different to the angle the new hoof was trying to grow.. Pretty much everything..

11 til now is last ditch chance to correct.. Doubt even rockley farm could help..