Brave people post "good shoeing" pix please

[amandap]

My heart goes out to you KSR. I recommend you join the Yahoo group linked down the page. Many people in your position on there as well as experts who have been sharing information and advice for years so it's a fabulous collective resource. http://www.ecirhorse.com/
Also google Pete Ramey and have a look at his articles. x There is info on his 10 DVD series (expensive but worth while) about laminitis and trimming and support for laminitic hooves. Two DVD's dedicated specifically to it as well as theory.

 

[KSR]

Just had a quick nosey, looks good.. I'll have a good browse later on thanks to all for their interest and for support shown..

 

[cptrayes]

Just had a quick nosey, looks good.. I'll have a good browse later on thanks to all for their interest and for support shown..

He's a lucky horse to have been owned by you.

I agree with you totally, I would not mess with anything right now. He must have underlying metabolic issues to grow feet with such a difference between the rate of production of toe and heel, I would have thought, and even Rockley don't knowingly take horses whose fundamental problem is metabolic.

Can I ask what breed he is?

 

[amandap]

He's a lucky horse to have been owned by you.

I agree with you totally, I would not mess with anything right now. He must have underlying metabolic issues to grow feet with such a difference between the rate of production of toe and heel, I would have thought, and even Rockley don't knowingly take horses whose fundamental problem is metabolic.

I agree too. Getting to the bottom of possible metabolic issues is vital before planning possible future changes. x

 

[KSR]

He's a purebred Cleveland Bay..

His sister had textbook perfect feet.. He showed very successfully as a foal and young colt then sold to be a companion to an old Cushings horse as a 2yo.. I brought him home just turned 4.. He was very overweight..

She was a year younger, bought from my CB breeder friend from Wales in very poor condition, having been a brood mare.. So maybe he's just unfortunate or there was information withheld at time of purchase, who really knows..

I've had him tested for IR, Cushings, EMS and EPSM so far and everything has come back completely normal.. Vets wish it was one of them because as it stands they can think of nowhere to proceed, just to manage the feet.. It's so frustrating.. I can't do more than I'm doing without knowing why his feet are so compromised.. Could be physiological, genetic or at the biochemical level.. I suppose he could be an interesting case study for anyone who is interested

I don't want to monopolise this thread either, so apologies if that's the case

 

[KSR]

My friend wasn't the breeder who bred from my mare by the way..

 

[little_critter]

Right here's my pics (hopefully - have never loaded pics before, sorry is they're massive!)
I'm ashamed to say I know bugger all about feet (have had 1st horse for a year and she hasn't had any foot problems) But have found this thread really useful.
Here goes...
Near fore...

Near hind

Off fore

Off hind

I'm happy with her feet (but as admitted I don't know much) so would be interested in your comments. She has always had the red tinge to her hoof on her near hind but it's never seemed to cause her a problem.
Last shod 25th Jan and is done every 7 weeks.

 

[trina1982]

17yo 15.1hh Irish sport horse gelding, shod yesterday what do we think?



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I'm very interested to hear what people say about these feet. I have an idea in my own mind but I will await the more knowledgable peeps opinions! I will say it looks like your farrier has rasped quite high up the wall. Is that right, or a trick of the light?

Trina x

 

[cptrayes]

17yo 15.1hh Irish sport horse gelding, shod yesterday what do we think?

For a horse who was shod yesterday, the whole foot is extraordinarily long and the heel is very, very high. Look at the first half inch of growth - it's a completely different angle than the rest of his foot. I don't think the angle your farrier has given him is the one that he wants.

 

[cptrayes]

17yo 15.1hh Irish sport horse gelding, shod yesterday what do we think?







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These two pictures appear to show an imbalance with one side of the foot noticeably longer than the other. On the one from the front, you need to imagine the continuation of the hairline under the leg wrap. If this has not been done for a reason, it is the kind of imbalance that leads to collateral ligament injury.

Again, for a horse shod yesterday I would be very concerned about this unless it has been done deliberately for some reason.

 

[little_critter]

Anyone fancy commenting on my feet on page 44? Or are they wholly unremarkable feet? From what I've picked up so far her heels look shorter than many of the pics on here. Is that a good thing?

 

[cptrayes]

Anyone fancy commenting on my feet on page 44? Or are they wholly unremarkable feet? From what I've picked up so far her heels look shorter than many of the pics on here. Is that a good thing?

Short of time so I'll just say that all the shoes look a bit small to me, and in one shot the shoe is clearly ending well in front of the toe - has your farrier explained why he has done that?

I prefer your horse's heel length to the one above, but I know neither of your horses and both could be correct for the horse that they are on.

 

[little_critter]

Thanks for the comment. Yes I see what you mean, the foot is having to come in a little to meet the shoe. And yes the shoe is a bit forward. She tends to go on the forehand so would bringing the breakover point back help in getting her to pick her front feet up better? Sadly I don't see my farrier as I have to be at work and he sorts her out himself. I will see if I can discuss this with him at her next shoeing

 

[black_horse]

Further to my post i also found this pic of her iron foot

my farrier is amazing

 

[Sults]

I will try and put some photos together next week of what we look for in a shod horse at each process if any one is interested. we use different marker points on the hoof to identify where to put the shoe. not fool proof but a good guide.

yes please A Guilding! would be very interested to see

 

[Sults]

I would personally think long and hard about whether he really needs them:

http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2010/06/some-horses-dont-need-studs.html

There are lots of posts on this blog about eventing and studs - I think if horses can hunt around Exmoor barefoot then most eventing will be a doddle, though I understand the SJ section is probably the most challenging.

Yes i have thought long and hard about it. He will be competing at Novice BE and will be hoping to qualify for a 1*. The second half of last season, where it was so wet he often didn't make the time xc (as well as a couple of slips SJ'ing). So i would feel happier being able to put studs in.
The shoes will come off once the season is finished.

I would be gratefull for a rough guide to how a shod horse should look as its been about 8 years since i'v had a horse shod!

I do have the book no foot, no horse but it seems to mainly have pics of feet that need correcting. If anyone can point me in the direct of any books or websites that have examples of good shoeing it would be much appreciated!

 

[trina1982]

I started a thread about a book the other day....

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=515035

It was first written in 1895 but I've found what i've read so far to be very comparable (if not better practise) than what is currently often seen! Would love a farriers opinion on the book.

Trina x

 

[little_critter]

Thanks for the comment. Yes I see what you mean, the foot is having to come in a little to meet the shoe. And yes the shoe is a bit forward. She tends to go on the forehand so would bringing the breakover point back help in getting her to pick her front feet up better? Sadly I don't see my farrier as I have to be at work and he sorts her out himself. I will see if I can discuss this with him at her next shoeing

Could someone answer my query...if my horse tends to go on the forehand will moving the breakover back help her to pick up her front feet better? or will she land on her nose?
And before you say there are no quick fixes I am schooling to lift her forehand but if her shoes are impeding her then I'd want to look at that too.

 

[Sults]

I started a thread about a book the other day....

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=515035

It was first written in 1895 but I've found what i've read so far to be very comparable (if not better practise) than what is currently often seen! Would love a farriers opinion on the book.

Trina x

Thanks trina!!!!

 

[trina1982]

Thanks Moorman.

I've just now started the section about calkins and found it interesting that the author thinks that although they are helpful for the horse to begin with (for grip and stability), he actually thinks it makes the horse worse off in the long run because once the calkins wear down, the horse can no longer use them and is then more insecure and unbalanced (because he relied on them) than if he had never had them. I can't help but wonder if horses get used to jumping with studs in the same way? Then start feeling very insecure if they then have to use only what nature gave them?

I read page 56 - very interesting and much like the first few chapters i've read so far, makes you realise how educated they were (as you point out - with what little they had available to them). I was unsure whether we nowadays would advocate shoeing as a way of correcting limb deformity at such a young age (i read p56, 57, 58 of the online version - i assume this is what you meant).

Thanks for your input!
Trina x

 

[amandap]

I've often wondered if and how much extra strain studs could put on horses legs. Especially when they allow faster speeds, turns etc. without slip.
Also, surely they unbalance the shoe and therefore the hoof to some extent or is that taken into account when the shoe is fitted?

 

[LucyPriory]

Studs should be banned!!
They are not allowed in racing where you can have 30 horses going flat-out into the Canal Turn (not that I approve of that either) but at least the cases of jarring are much diminished.
It is a sad day when we build bigger courses to obtain results, all we end up doing is fitting bigger and bigger studs to cope with the demands put upon the horse that has no say in the matter.
Do we wait until legs/ligaments start to be broken due to horses being over studded?
Already I have to deal with loads of caudal problems due to studs
As long as a rider feels they make a difference then they will use them.
Ban them, and make the courses testing but safe.
In the past I have shod horses at the top level of all disciplines. I never put a stud in a shoe, it is far better that the horse is surefooted and that the rider knows they are on a horse that is responsible for its own abilities.

This ^^^^^^^

 

[amandap]

That's what I thought. Also, pushing horses so they slip leading to using studs also allows natural body limits to be broken. I wholeheartedly think the courses and speeds should be dictated by the horses safety not the ability of a devise to allow humans to push horses beyond their limits.

 

[cptrayes]

Studs should be banned!!
They are not allowed in racing where you can have 30 horses going flat-out into the Canal Turn (not that I approve of that either) but at least the cases of jarring are much diminished.
It is a sad day when we build bigger courses to obtain results, all we end up doing is fitting bigger and bigger studs to cope with the demands put upon the horse that has no say in the matter.
Do we wait until legs/ligaments start to be broken due to horses being over studded?
Already I have to deal with loads of caudal problems due to studs
As long as a rider feels they make a difference then they will use them.
Ban them, and make the courses testing but safe.
In the past I have shod horses at the top level of all disciplines. I never put a stud in a shoe, it is far better that the horse is surefooted and that the rider knows they are on a horse that is responsible for its own abilities.

I am always amazed by the people who hunt and event who insist that they need studs for eventing when they would not dream of studding to hunt. Havign evented with and without them on the same two horses I can honestly say it made not one jot of difference to either of them except in a dry hard dressage arena where they slipped on the corners if asked to go too fast/with too much power.

Having used them, I have no doubt that they allow horses to perform above the level of what their natural/schooled balance would allow them to do, and I often wonder at what cost to the joints, particularly as those are usually the younger horses.

Having said that, I understand totally why people use them. They do make you, as a rider, feel more confident about sending the horse on (you can tell the difference in yourself the first couple of times you ride without them). When jumping fixed timber in particular, that condfidence on the part of the rider feeds through to the horse, or rather a lack of confidence without them does. So I believe that they do affect a horse's performance, just not quite in the way most people believe.

 

[A Guilding]

Today I got a second year apprentice to shoe a dead foot for the benefit everyone on here. He is a very talented lad so go easy on him. (He had no idea why I got him to do this' for him it is an every day job).
there wasnt much hoof to come off and we didnt get any pre trim pics.
I get them to draw a line on the foot at the widest part to give the lads an idea of where to center the shoe.

 

[A Guilding]

The center line should have as much metal behind the line as in front of it. This is what we use to decide the size of the shoe, If it is to small then it will not reach the heels, (the widest part of the frog as a guide) or the farrier will need to thin the toe to much to make it reach.

The side view shoes a generous amount of metal for the foot to stand on, not silly long but plenty of room for the foot to grow and the shoe isnt to small.

I have drawn some lines on the picture for the inexperinced eye to see it better. to me this is a balanced looking shoe, made for the foot by the apprentice. Uually if it looks right it is, and this looks right as the lines were drawn after and just his eye was used before.

 

[amandap]

What a great idea A. Guilding. I personally very much appreciate you going to all this effort to help us understand. Thank the 'lad' too.

 

[Bernster]

What a great idea A. Guilding. I personally very much appreciate you going to all this effort to help us understand. Thank the 'lad' too.

Agree!! Having just read the yucky picture thread, and this dead foot being shod thread, I am certainly better informed but now unlikely to want any dinner...

 

[Montys_Mum]

I wondered if anyone would like to make their opinions on my horses feet/shoes? He has typical TB's feet with crappy heels and long and flat feet. He seems to have quite thin soles which are sensitive. I am fairly happy with the shoeing but tbh i have no idea really about the horses feet or how they should really be shod. He has heart bars on the front since the start of summer last year to add support as he was lame. Pictures are just after being shod.

Front Left

Back left

 

[jphfarrier]

OK I'll start.

Your horse has been shod with wide web aluminium shoes which are light and will, when they first go on, bear weight slightly inside the hoof wall as well as on it, spreading the load. Unfortunately, as you can see, after 4 weeks the hoof wall has grown and the shoe no longer does what it was designed to do. That's not a problem with the shoeing, it's a problem with the fact that horses feet grow.

But, it looks like the shoes do not extend to the full length of where the heel plane would be in contact with the floor. It looks like they are about 1/8th to 1/4inch short. It's worse on the right of the photo than the left. Lots of farriers do this so that the horse will not tread the shoe off, but it's not ideal as it shortens the support for the heel.

Your horse looks as if it has been left with very high heel but they may ahve grown this way in 4 weeks. The frog is some way above the bottom of the horn, and then there is the shoe as well, so it will be nigh on impossible to get much stimulation for the frog if the photo is telling the truth.

The heel appears to be underrun - it seems to be some way out in front of the bulbs of the heels, and although we can't see the cannon bones, it seems possible that the foot may not be standing under the cannon bone and supporting the leg properly. In the front feet I look for the last bit of the heel in contact with the floor being underneath a line drawn down the middle of the cannon bone.

That might be why the front of the hoof is bending out to give the foot a long toe, which the farrier has rasped back, correctly, to allow the horse to break over earlier in each stride. Many farriers would have shod the horse with longer shoes that poke out over the end of the heel to correct the underrun, but the problem with that is that they come off very easily.

She has of course got two compeletely unmatched front feet in that photo, but we only have close-ups of the one I have commented on.

In summary I would say that for me these are "not great" feet (hence the fact that the horse is now in a barefoot rehab) in "not bad" shoeing.

Anyone else got some comments?

The shoes on this horse are steel not aluminium, natural balance shoes. I agree the feet are not shod with enough support for the feet, this may be a result of fear for them being pulled off but no excuse. They are also hind shoes so unless they are on hind feet they dont give they same degree of breakover benefits a NB front shoe would give as well as the fact they perched onto the toe and not positioned correctly for the style of shoe to give its optimum performance.

Even in barefoot its still important for the balancing and foot mapping to be addressed. And from what i have seen in past few years its massively influenced by how the hooves grow from the inside out, the right diet and if necessary supplements have made a massive impact to how i have seen feet improve whether shod or barefoot.

Of course this is all just my opinion and sometimes that accounts for nothing!