destiny11
Well-Known Member
My mare was diagnosed with very slight arthritus in her coffin joint, vet recommended natural balance. She hasn't had one lame day since. Only got a couple of pics.
Brave people post "good shoeing" pix please
- Thread starter cptrayes
- Start date
twisteddiamond
Well-Known Member
these are my old boys feet, he was put on the wedges and natural balance shoes for degenerative joint issues in his feet and fetlock joints, i dont have a before pic but they were long in the toe with underrun heels (according to vet)
in the end he was retired and transistioned to barefoot as the wedges made his lameness worse, his feet we a lot better and he was much sounder, he was even able to start light work again, sadly he was pts in november due to an unrelated injury
in the end he was retired and transistioned to barefoot as the wedges made his lameness worse, his feet we a lot better and he was much sounder, he was even able to start light work again, sadly he was pts in november due to an unrelated injury
AFlapjack
Well-Known Member
Interesting! I will need to ask my farrier why he chose to fit hunter shoes to my Connemara pony then
lol
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
I don't agree with you and there is at least one set of pictures on here which show what I mean, where the heel and toe are parallel lines. The foot is not a circle, it's perfectly possible for it to look this way from a side on view, depending on how wide the heels are.
AFlapjack
Well-Known Member
Would you say my boy's hind feet have better lines than his fronts? If so, it may be interesting to add that he had his hind shoes off for a couple of months last winter...
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Well put it this way. A farrier did it to one of my horses once and he bled all over the floor where he cut so deep a notch for the toe clip
.So I think the answer is no, and I always had double clip fronts on mine when I realised that the toe should be brought back.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
I hope aliceflapjack doesn't mind but I added some lines to illustrate what I think CP means, if wrong am sure she will say!
so the yellow lines (actual lines of front wall and heel) are parallel, however the growth at the top of the hoof wall is coming down at a different angle, as roughly illustrated by the red line, so there is a broken angle on the front wall
therefore it the parallelity
Spot on
The trouble is that many farriers consider that parallel toe and heel to be desireable and try and shoe to get it. In the case of the foot shown, it doesn't want to be that way, and you can see from the top of the hoof, red line, what angle the horse really wants. If a horse with shod feet that look like this has his shoes removed, the whole foot usually grows down at the angle it starts off from at the top. It's this choice by the horse to grow the whole foot in at that angle if it is allowed that makes me think that the farrier may have the foot angles wrong in this case and have left the heel too high. Alternatively, it could also be diet related if the attachment of the laminae is not strong enough to hold the foot tight as it gets longer.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
A F one of the things that puzzles me is that hind feet are normally better than front feet in a less than all-round perfect horse. It may be because they are naturally steeper in angle than the fronts and take less outward force on the walls. perhaps. It may be because the fronts carry more weight, or because the backs provide more push and do more work, I have heard both suggested as the reason. But whatever the reason, many horses can happily work without backs but not without fronts.
Having said that, bilateral hind lameness is much less easy to spot than bilateral front lameness and I'll bet there are some horses struggling a bit barefoot behind whose owners simply can't tell.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Some fascinating postings while I 've been watching War Horse, thanks everyone for sharing. I love the drain hole in particular how ingenious was that ?
ps 1914 - stainless steel bits and stirrup irons and one cavalry officer with offset tread dressage irons? Puh-leeeze They got the saddles and bridles right though, and I only spotted one scene where the horse began in a military bit and ended in a pelham with one rein only, on the curb.
how ingenious was that ?ps 1914 - stainless steel bits and stirrup irons and one cavalry officer with offset tread dressage irons? Puh-leeeze
They got the saddles and bridles right though, and I only spotted one scene where the horse began in a military bit and ended in a pelham with one rein only, on the curb.
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AFlapjack
Well-Known Member
Fascinating, thanks for all the info, greatly appreciated
ETA with regards to "it could also be diet related if the attachment of the laminae is not strong enough to hold the foot tight as it gets longer" what does this mean and what would you need to feed to help strengthen the attachment?
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
TB with not the best feet! He was shod approximately 4 weeks ago so these are not 'new' shoes. (sorry about the mud, we are on clay and it is a nightmare to get off despite lots of scrubbing!)
Please be nice!
NF
NH
OF
OH
Have you got any tips for people how on earth you manage to stop him treading those off when he is turned out?
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
My mare was diagnosed with very slight arthritus in her coffin joint, vet recommended natural balance. She hasn't had one lame day since. Only got a couple of pics.
It's great that the natural balance shoes are working so well for you. I know that they are very good for many horses. Your photos are interesting because they show that your farrier has fitted them slightly inside the outer rim of the foot. I don't know if this is normal for natural balance shoeing, but it shows what I meant about the very bottom outer edge of the foot not being terribly important as far as the horse is concerned.
Your first photo also shows a great example of what I was talking about with growth rings. Growth rings show when something has changed in the horse's environment. It's usually food - things like changes of grass when it rains after a dry spell, but it can also be environmental eg extra work or something stressful. Really sensitive flowers can get them from a chemical wormer.
The interesting thing with your horse, though, is that there is a clear upwards deviation in the line of the growth ring (or possibly a downward sweep at the heel) My understanding is that would normally suggest that there is pressure coming up from the bottom of the foot at that point, or possibly that the heel is growing much faster than the rest of the foot. A thermograph of a foot with a growth ring deviation upwards will sometimes show a hot spot on the coronet band, and bad cases will show an upward lift in the hair line as well as the line on the hoof. It is possible that your horse's foot is not quite balanced, or this could be something from the past growing out, but I would ask my farrier about it if it was my horse.
ps your photo looks very much what I have seen other people post as Cytek shoeing, including the shoe being inside the hoof wall and the wide web toe. Can anyone clarify for us what we are seeing here?
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unbalanced
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry unbalanced I missed your post
I'm also not happy with the "look" of your pony's feet but I think she may be one you would need to see in the flesh. As a previous laminitic it may account for why they do seem to look, somehow, in a way that is impossible to explain "tight", but of course it's impossible to tell without being able to pick up her feet. It might also be that I'm just not used to looking at pony feet.
Was your pony happy in those shoes?
Would anyone else be questionning the size of the clip on a tiny foot, and the height of at least one of the nails?
I've had this pony since I was a clueless 14 year old and even then I remember thinking that she had kind of small feet, especially when she didn't have back shoes on. I was so clueless that I thought the looked more 'right' with shoes on because the extra 1/4" made them look slightly bigger. That was not the actual reason for the end of the brief flirtation of barefoot behind back then, the real reason was the bruised foot and the farrier who 'cured' it by putting the shoes back on.
Here is the pony full-size so you can see feet in proportion to rest of body. Perhaps they will grow now shoes are off (they came off two weeks ago today). At any rate, it will be interesting to find out.
As for whether the pony was happy in the shoes - well, the farrier and my vet and also Rossdales pronounced her sound in them. I am quite good at spotting lameness even bilateral ones and if I didn't you'd think that one of those people would. However, she has a very small walk, especially downhill. I haven't noticed any real improvement in the walk yet although I suppose you wouldn't expect to for a fair while. Rather unscientifically I have noticed that she has been in a better mood than usual since having them off, but I will never know if that's my imagination or not, so I should really leave that out of it as it probably isn't helpful.
The other thing about the shoe contracting the foot - my trimmer, who has obviously seen her in the flesh, commented on contracted heels for one thing.
One week after having it off:
It seems to me the frog is already decontracting a little - so my horse agrees about that bit anyway.
And here is the side view bare, just for interest:
indie999
Well-Known Member
Very very close well done
Delicia came in from the field 9/10ths lame and nonweightbearing on her hind leg, a lot of heat but no swelling. She had a history of abesses in this foot and showed tenderness in the same area.
farrier and vet called, vet and farrier diagnosed an absess that was very deep within the hoof capsule. Farrier cut against the frog and a LOT of horrible puss came out. Wound was sterilised and packed and a poltice used. However delicia was still nonweighbearing and continually kicking out with that leg (in pain and discomforted) She kept destroying her poltices no matter how much tape we used and the wound kept becoming dirty. She was still producing puss after a week and it started coming out of her corronet band.
The farrier created the above concoction for us. It had a screw lock lid on it which allowed us access to the wound site to clean and pack and then close the lid with the antisceptic packing in place against the wound. It took 12 weeks for it to heal correctly, she was sound after 3 weeks from initial onset of the abcess but the wound wouldnt heal properly (was very deep) so needed cleaning daily, then every other day, then once every three days. After it was healed she was shod normally and hasnt had an abcess since
That was a skillful farrier have never seen anything like it...I like the screw lock lid idea too. Sounds a very nasty infection your poor horse but glad it turned out well.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
This picture puzzles me. I thought the whole point of bar shoes was to support the whole of the back of the foot. This picture clearly shows that this bar shoe has been made with a wedge shape that is deliberately thinned across the back to STOP the frog bearing on it.
Did your farrier explain why this is right for your horse?
A G can you tell us?
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
This picture is interesting and if you are really interested in feet try and get a good look at your horses when the shoes are off. The hole at the toe is not that uncommon, I've seen several horses with them. In one of mine, it was caused by a toe abscess from shoe pressure due to unbalanced feet, but I believe that it's often a sign of dead laminae at the toe with a horse who has either had an attack of laminitis or has constant low grade laminitis which is not enough to make it lame. Don't panic if you have a small mark at that point on your horse's feet, that's so common as to be, I think, possible to consider it normal.
Also, if you have a horse who has constant abscesses, take a look when the shoe is off and you will sometimes find that hidden under the shoe, the white line is a trench of black rotted stuff, which is letting the bugs into the feet instead of being the glue it ought to be. (I think I can see it on the left of that foot in the photo, but it may be just a shadow). That's normally a dietary issue too, and you should be able to reduce or cure the abscesses by adjusting the horse's diet. Check the barefoot threads for diet advice, it applies equally well to shod feet.
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A Guilding
Well-Known Member
Spot on
The trouble is that many farriers consider that parallel toe and heel to be desireable and try and shoe to get it. In the case of the foot shown, it doesn't want to be that way, and you can see from the top of the hoof, red line, what angle the horse really wants. If a horse with shod feet that look like this has his shoes removed, the whole foot usually grows down at the angle it starts off from at the top. It's this choice by the horse to grow the whole foot in at that angle if it is allowed that makes me think that the farrier may have the foot angles wrong in this case and have left the heel too high. Alternatively, it could also be diet related if the attachment of the laminae is not strong enough to hold the foot tight as it gets longer.
Nope it is not possible to be the same angle. I do like pics with lines on they emphasize things, however a few things must be remembered. This is a two dimensional image of a 3D object, no lines will be accurate when drawn on it. As your friends have pointed out all pics need to be oblique to the camera ( 90degs) the pics that have been marked here are well on the skew.
Yep fronts are different in function and form, most important the pedal bones are different shapes. and a 60% 40% split in weight carrying between the front and hind feet.
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A Guilding
Well-Known Member
Support is a banned phrase unless its emotional.
Bar shoes are much misunderstood, this horse needs some elevation and to prevent independent movement between the heels, it has been locked into a bar shoe. Its a good job. as for keeping them on, that is good management, if you leave it to charge round the field it will lose them
The other thing is if you manage to improve the movement then less shoes will come off.ThePony
Well-Known Member
Support is a banned phrase unless its emotional.
Bar shoes are much misunderstood, this horse needs some elevation and to prevent independent movement between the heels, it has been locked into a bar shoe. Its a good job. as for keeping them on, that is good management, if you leave it to charge round the field it will lose them
I was wondering the same thing. Can we remove the word support form it and answer anyway?! I'm sure we all know what cpatrays meant? My (very small) amount of understanding for the use of bar shoes led me to the same questrion. The heels can be kept level and the same without removing contact from the frog surely, a simple bar across the back fulfills that function. Why has the frog in this case been left with no possibility of making contact with any surface, and why has the chance of contact with the shoe be particularly removed by thinning the area over the frog?
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Please please peeps don't turn this into a Q&A on barefoot or the merits of shoes, you will turn off all the people who are logging on to learn more about how to manage their horses with shoes on.
Please start another thread, I'm begging you here.
Please start another thread, I'm begging you here.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Well let's ignore for a moment whether the photo is true or false. Can we agree that many farriers strive to obtain a parallel heel and toe line, and in doing so they allow the toe to lengthen and/or the heel to come too high, just as is described in this, one of many, references I found on Google http://horsemanpro.com/articles/hoof_parallels.htm which concludes "Once when the heel and toe are parallel, the attention can be placed on the angle of the hoof and not before. Without the alignment of the heel and toe, the angle of the hoof remains distorted and not real".
You clearly don't believe this, but some farriers still appear to. I can remember years and years of "good shoeing" articles in horse magazines that stressed every time the objective of a parallel heel and toe line. The problem may be that if this is no longer what is taught in college, the older farriers have not been retrained, perhaps?
For the non-technical who are still reading, the point is not whether your horse appears to have parallel heel and toe lines. The point is that if is does have parallel lines but the top half inch of the front line is a different angle from the rest of the hoof, then however pretty the foot looks, it's probably not correctly balanced.
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amandap
Well-Known Member
I'll ask TFC to remove my post.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Ps AG I believe our problem is a semantic one. You are of course correct in saying that in 3 dimensions the horn tubules cannot be parallel. But what the textbooks and articles are talking about is the line of the tubules from the verticle in one plane only at the toe and the heel (ie in 2 dimensions). I can find dozens of current references on Google to the practice and in those farriers are still being encourage to shoe to those lines.
Piglet
Well-Known Member
If I was clever enough to upload the piccys on to the system then I would 'cos I think I have the best farrier in the world!!!! .
. ThePony
Well-Known Member
Just done the same for my most recent post. Sorry, got too rambling!
I wonder if there are any farriers posting if they would be able to show before and after type pics? I find shoeing pics hard to understand esp in isolation. If we could see the changes brought about by shoeing that might look different while going through the process then I would be really interested.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Thanks guys
Piglet are they online somewhere? You can point to them. If you right cilck on them you can copy the address of the picture into your post. If they are only on your phone or pooter somewhere, though, you would need to get them onto a blog, for example. Other people can tell you how to put them in photobucket and pick them up in a thread.
Piglet are they online somewhere? You can point to them. If you right cilck on them you can copy the address of the picture into your post. If they are only on your phone or pooter somewhere, though, you would need to get them onto a blog, for example. Other people can tell you how to put them in photobucket and pick them up in a thread.
Countrychic
Well-Known Member
Yes I think it should be removed because this is the first thread ever where I have felt neither side were ramming opinions on each other and I think people could learn a huge amount from this thread. My husband is a farrier and I showed him this last night and he agreed with most of what was written and said it was the first time a "barefooter" hadn't come across as god. I enjoyed reading it and learned from it too.
I don't really know about the parallel line debate but he read it and straight away said the same as AG if that helps?
I don't really know about the parallel line debate but he read it and straight away said the same as AG if that helps?
ThePony
Well-Known Member
Phew, at last got to (semi!) grips with photo bucket.
Shoes are 4 weeks old, due to be replaced with bar shoes (vets and farriers recommendation) at next shoeing which would be a week after pic was taken. Showing front feet only. The pic looking at both front legs isn't straight on, but the twist and the mismatched feet isn't brought about by that. Although not ideal, the photo acurrately shows how they appeared in real life.
Shoes are 4 weeks old, due to be replaced with bar shoes (vets and farriers recommendation) at next shoeing which would be a week after pic was taken. Showing front feet only. The pic looking at both front legs isn't straight on, but the twist and the mismatched feet isn't brought about by that. Although not ideal, the photo acurrately shows how they appeared in real life.
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Phew, at last got to (semi!) grips with photo bucket.
Shoes are 4 weeks old, due to be replaced with bar shoes (vets and farriers recommendation) at next shoeing which would be a week after pic was taken. Showing front feet only. The pic looking at both front legs isn't straight on, but the twist and the mismatched feet isn't brought about by that. Although not ideal, the photo acurrately shows how they appeared in real life.
That's a nice clear view from behind showing the additional width and length on the heels that seems to be recognised as best practice these days. For others, if your farrier does not do this and you do not nag him about your horse taking its shoes off too easily, you might (cautiously
) ask him why not.If I had to have shoes on your horse I'd want a real movment expert to shoe him/her because s/he does have a significantly wonky leg (technical term
), doesn't she? Have they explained why they now want him/her in bar shoes?
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trina1982
Well-Known Member
Phew, at last got to (semi!) grips with photo bucket.
Shoes are 4 weeks old, due to be replaced with bar shoes (vets and farriers recommendation) at next shoeing which would be a week after pic was taken. Showing front feet only. The pic looking at both front legs isn't straight on, but the twist and the mismatched feet isn't brought about by that. Although not ideal, the photo acurrately shows how they appeared in real life.
I've probably missed your story somewhere, what happened to cause the twist/mis-matched feet? Or have they always been like that?
Trina x