Brave people post "good shoeing" pix please

[ThePony]

Yup, mega wonky - the wonkyness seemed to center on the fetlock and she wasn't made that way. At the time we didn't see it build up. At the time of the pics the mare was lame with a bit of a list of symptoms that had built up over time. We had the vet out and in consultation with our farrier the solution of bar shoes was suggested along with very careful trimming to get the balance back. When the foot was trimmed into having better side to side balance then it was easier to see that the heel bulbs were at different heights. The bar shoes were to bring them back to the same level. The frogs were in good nic at this time (thanks I think to the wider shoeing at the heel) but they did atrophy and become thrushy while the bar shoes were in place as we weren't able to get to them and grot got stuck and just stayed there.

The twist/mismatching came about through long term but v slight medial lateral imbalance. The larger hoof is the twisty one with the lions share of imbalance. The smaller, more correct appearing, hoof was actually the one she was lame on. The conclusion was because it was taking more of the strain to relieve the uncomfortable wonky foot.

The bar shoes did do the job and were used for a few shoeing cycles before returning to the shoes like in the pics and when tested with a metal t (sorry, don't know techie name!) the feet were level. The mare's soundness was improved, but still a very 'upright' sort of movement which kept her needing frequent physio treatment on her back. She struggled to track up, didn't stride out, was ouchy downhill and struggled to extend in her paces, but she was sound in all paces on the flat. She was best straight after shoeing and for just a couple of weeks after, but after a couple of weeks the lameness returned until new shoes were put on at 5 weeks. The farrier was very careful about the trimming, but the v slight imbalance that grew in between shoeing was enough to send her lame again. Farrier is excellent at being careful about the balance. I don't know why it grew unbalanced rather than balanced. Our farrier was unhappy shoeing more frequently than every 5 weeks due to limited horn growth (our wallets were also rather worried at the prospect!). Her fronts were never made to match which I think helped her be as sound as she was, ablit for a shorter time than ideal.

She is a mare that is astonishingly sensitive to medial lateral balance. I don't know if this is simply something personal to her, or if it is due to longterm strain of the collateral ligaments due to the balance issues.

 

[cptrayes]

ThePony your mare is obviously a very difficult case. Was her foot balance checked with xrays or scans?

Thank goodness not many horses have this much of a problem, but it perhaps goes to show that people with young horses whose growth plates are still open (still allowing their legs to grow) need to be very aware of foot balance. An unbalanced foot at that age can result in a permanently bent leg (which is how horses born with bent legs are able to be straightened, thankfully). The leg has different growth areas and it is possible to apply more stimulus to one side or the other and cause one side to grow more than the other. It sounds as though this is what happened to The Pony's horse, is that right ThePony?

 

[ThePony]

ThePony your mare is obviously a very difficult case. Was her foot balance checked with xrays or scans?

Thank goodness not many horses have this much of a problem, but it perhaps goes to show that people with young horses whose growth plates are still open (still allowing their legs to grow) need to be very aware of foot balance. An unbalanced foot at that age can result in a permanently bent leg (which is how horses born with bent legs are able to be straightened, thankfully). The leg has different growth areas and it is possible to apply more stimulus to one side or the other and cause one side to grow more than the other. It sounds as though this is what happened to The Pony's horse, is that right ThePony?

We didn't take her through a full lameness work up, which I guess would have included scans, as there appeared to be a reason for the lameness which could be worked on. Improving the balance improved her soundness so we didn't take things further.

Since going through this you wouldn't believe how careful we are about balance now, I never realised quite how very important it was, and tbh I didn't know how to evaluate the balance. We have moved away from checking with a t (we still keep a close eye on things!) as we have found it can be misleading with her and we find it difficult tbh. We now grovel in the dirt waching how she places her feet. At least for us this has given us an easier way to evaluate her balance.

The mare was 14 in these pics, so even though the growth plates were closed it was still possible for things to go awry, and fortunatly still possible for things to straighten again. I wish we did have x-rays and MRI as I would be very interested in comparing how she was then with now and also having a more complete diagnosis than wonky lol! I wonder if because of her age, despite appearances, it wasn't actually her legs and bones that were twisted, but actually a twisting and unbalancing of the tendons and ligaments instead? She was also very toe first in her landing, tripping because of this. I think there was alot of crap going on inside. Maybe it was better we didn't know more at the time as I think it would have scared us silly!

There is a happy ending - mare is sound and moving very much better, with less back problems too and increased correct muscle development due to this. Despite our best efforts she still grows hoof wall in an unbalanced way, but this can be managed. I don't know if this is something that will improve over time as the internal structures repair and even stimulation is applied to the hoof?

 

[Hedwards]

Here's connie fronts today (she is only front shod currently) farrier is coming back out on Wednesday, these have been on about 6 weeks:

NF

OF

Connie had concussive lami in her OF and had imprints for a while before going into the heartbar. Farrier and I ate currently discussing going barefoot (his recommendation not my request) I personally think my farrier is great, wouldn't have anyone else!

 

[ThePony]

Hi Hedwards,
Wondering why it might be that your mare has different shoes infront? Even though only one might need a heartbar is it usual to shoe in a not matching pair?
Does the NF have the shoe further forward and slightly infront of the toe than the OF or is it just the shavings hiding that little bit?!
Sorry if they are stupid questions!

 

[cptrayes]

The open heeled shoe looks very short from the sole shot, but it may be a trick of the picture, maybe. Ditto the query about the odd shoes, I have only ever seen that done for a pedal bone fracture.

 

[cptrayes]

There is a happy ending - mare is sound and moving very much better, with less back problems too and increased correct muscle development due to this. Despite our best efforts she still grows hoof wall in an unbalanced way, but this can be managed. I don't know if this is something that will improve over time as the internal structures repair and even stimulation is applied to the hoof?

I'm really pleased that you have worked out how to keep her sound. If you were a millionaire, it would be good to have a set of xrays over a shoeing period to try to get to the bottom of why she continues to try to grow feet in a different balance than the shoeing that makes her sound. But we can't all win the lottery, can we ?

 

[whisp&willow]

Hedwards: the only thing i'd say is that the open heeled shoe looks to stop a bit short at the heels for my liking. i thought that may be down to the shoes being 6 wks old though. (although from the side on shots the feet look newly shod)

i would have thought it a bit odd to have different shoes on- and would have expected for the farrier to put two heartbars on?! did your farrier explain why? (just out of curiosity! )

x

 

[Swirlymurphy]

Can I just say what a fantastic thread this is! I feel like I'm learning a lot and am off to photograph the mare's feet with a view to posting later. Thank you for starting it, cptrayes, and for all of you who are contributing your photos and knowledge.

 

[SophieLouBee]

This thread, had me inspecting imprints in the shallow snow yesterday, then today, getting my face right in there whilst the farrier was shoeing. He must have thought I was insane, ok, more insane.

I have 5 to photograph & show, a mix of barefoot & shod, all with different & interesting 'foot history'! I look forward to hearing opinions, as I know very little about what I am looking at (a bit more now I have inspected this thread).

Thanks!

 

[ThePony]

I'm really pleased that you have worked out how to keep her sound. If you were a millionaire, it would be good to have a set of xrays over a shoeing period to try to get to the bottom of why she continues to try to grow feet in a different balance than the shoeing that makes her sound. But we can't all win the lottery, can we ?

Would LOVE that, would be so interesting!


(I know this is a non-barefoot thread, but end of the story follows in what I hope is an informative but neutral manner. Avert your eyes if you would rather, it's just it all sounds rather crypic if I say things are improved, without offering any information as to what has worked for her and what still messes things up for her!).

With the support of our farrier mare is now barefoot. We had just run out of options as we had reached a plateau of how sound she would stay and for how long between shoeings, next step was just retirement unfortunatly. Our farrier really is excellent so I don't feel that there was anything else we could have expected him to try or improve on. Despite being careful that her feet recieve stimulation on a variety of conformable surfaces she still grows hoof wall out of balance. If she is worked over hard surfaces so that she can't rebalance what she grows then she goes lame too - so she really does grow hoof wall out of balance, rather than hoof wall that appears to be out of balance (iyswim). She isn't trimmed as that makes her lame too, as does any tidying of her feet what-so-ever. Farrier comes, looks and goes away again! Her feet are still changing though so I don't know if this will stop when she has the feet she wants. If we did have pots of cash I would love MRIs/x-rays so we could understand what is going on. Although things have improved enormously, I still feel we are working in the dark rather alot as we still have niggles. Given how senstive she is to balance, I think it's a wonder our farrier kept her sound for as long as she was, simply seems that a human can't get things perfect enough for her.

 

[3Beasties]

Have you got any tips for people how on earth you manage to stop him treading those off when he is turned out?

as for keeping them on, that is good management, if you leave it to charge round the field it will lose them The other thing is if you manage to improve the movement then less shoes will come off.

He's had these on since the middle of last summer and *touches wood* he hasn't lost one yet I always exercise him in over reach boots but have never turned him out in them, he's not particularly silly in the field though so I guess that helps

I should have said he's got navicular, hence the heart bars.

 

[Hedwards]

Hi Hedwards,
Wondering why it might be that your mare has different shoes infront? Even though only one might need a heartbar is it usual to shoe in a not matching pair?
Does the NF have the shoe further forward and slightly infront of the toe than the OF or is it just the shavings hiding that little bit?!
Sorry if they are stupid questions!

The open heeled shoe looks very short from the sole shot, but it may be a trick of the picture, maybe. Ditto the query about the odd shoes, I have only ever seen that done for a pedal bone fracture.

Hedwards: the only thing i'd say is that the open heeled shoe looks to stop a bit short at the heels for my liking. i thought that may be down to the shoes being 6 wks old though. (although from the side on shots the feet look newly shod)

i would have thought it a bit odd to have different shoes on- and would have expected for the farrier to put two heartbars on?! did your farrier explain why? (just out of curiosity! )

x

I agree with the comments about the open shoe - it does feel like its a bit short - and i'll mention this to my farrier (I think and could be wrong it may have been a stand in farrier that did this shoe - my farrier definitely did the heartbar - but as one of his apprentices managed to get kicked and break his leg he had a 'stand in' do some of the shoeing)

As for odd shoes - its a good question, however, the balance/x-rays of the open shod foot were perfect, couldnt have asked for a better x-ray, so i believe it was felt there was no need to put it into a heartbar by both vet and farrier - although I may re-raise it (all this happened such a long time ago, and I was a bit of an emotional wreck everytime the vet and/or farrier came out).

Whisp & Willow - i can assure you it was definitely 6 weeks ago she was shod - however she is retired and so the shoes will look brand new as she literally travels from stable to field and back again - all of 400 yards...

 

[Bikerchickone]

This thread is amazing! I currently have problems with my cob (navicular, collateral ligaments damaged in the DIP joint and he's currently got wedges on the front. My farrier is great and more then happy to explain things to me, but I tend not to ask 'loaded' questions because I really don't know what I'm talking about. My boy is a very heavyweight 15.1 cob and I've always thought his feet look too small to support all his (and my) weight. I'm going to try to add the only pictures I've got for now, please could you all let me know what you think? Please be nice, I have no idea what I'm talking about!!

I'm sorry the pictures aren't at the right angles, I'm afraid when I took them (for advice on another thread) I didn't know how I should take the pictures! Any comments much appreciated. I may have more pictures so will have a look. Thank you.

 

[Holidays_are_coming]

What do u think of these, I love my farrier and think he does a great job with my mare

Sorry angles a bit out, it's a bit wet on the floor lol

And a hind

 

[whisp&willow]

Whisp & Willow - i can assure you it was definitely 6 weeks ago she was shod - however she is retired and so the shoes will look brand new as she literally travels from stable to field and back again - all of 400 yards...

it wasn't a criticism, and i wasn't saying it based on the wear on the shoes. i just meant that the foot looks very neat, and short, and like a newly shod foot from the side on pics. considering its six weeks since shoeing am i right in thinking that she doesn't grow much horn? my oldie Tego who is retired only needs a slight rasp every now and then- she doesnt grow much foot at all these days! the farrier has a check over her every 8 weeks when he is doing my other mare, but she hardly needs anything done anymore! (she has always been sound, and is now unshod)

x

 

[cptrayes]

This thread is amazing! I currently have problems with my cob (navicular, collateral ligaments damaged in the DIP joint and he's currently got wedges on the front. My farrier is great and more then happy to explain things to me, but I tend not to ask 'loaded' questions because I really don't know what I'm talking about. My boy is a very heavyweight 15.1 cob and I've always thought his feet look too small to support all his (and my) weight. I'm going to try to add the only pictures I've got for now, please could you all let me know what you think? Please be nice, I have no idea what I'm talking about!!

I'm sorry the pictures aren't at the right angles, I'm afraid when I took them (for advice on another thread) I didn't know how I should take the pictures! Any comments much appreciated. I may have more pictures so will have a look. Thank you.

He does look as if he has a very nice set of what I call "tin can feet" They seem to be the same width from top to bottom. I quite like small feet, they always seem very strong to me, but perhaps you could ask your farrier whether he would prefer to see the widen a bit towards the bottom. We can see his shoeing very well from those photos, but he's been treated in a pretty standard way for a horse with his problems. The important thing is, is he sound?

 

[cptrayes]

What do u think of these, I love my farrier and think he does a great job with my mare

Sorry angles a bit out, it's a bit wet on the floor lol

And a hind

I think the shoes look OK (bad phtos to tell from ), possibly a bit short but nothing drastic. BUT - look at your growth rings and try and find out why your mare ins growing toe horn quicker than heel horn - there is a dip in the rings in the hoof right at the front. This will usually be a diet issue - is your horse sensitive to grass in spring?

 

[cptrayes]

I'm about to try and persuade someone who has sent me pics in a PM to post them. They are, from what I can see, a very good example of a normal, sound, horse in standard fitted one clip clip shoes. We've seen about every example so far except the very one which is most normal. I'll see what I can do.

 

[JenHunt]

definitely a very interesting thread. I've learnt a lot!

will try to get some photos this week of our boys feet. They've been shod today (poor farrier stood out in the snow with them! - he's a hero), and I feel that Ron's feet are looking at their best at the moment. Tom's fronts always look dreadful but that's because he's club foot (almost) on one so they don't match.

 

[Holidays_are_coming]

Not that I'm aware of, she is generally a stressy sensitive soul!!! She is fed a soley fibre diet due to having gastric ulcers!!

 

[A Guilding]

I havent seen a bad job on here yet, which is very encouraging. lots of well fitted shoes with lots of happy clients who love there farriers And there is no probs with the bar shoe and open heeled shoe.

 

[TinseLeneHorse]

This thread is great. I'm a bit obsessive about shoeing as my horse does not have the best feet in the world. Sorry I'm not skilled enough to put photos on, but there are a couple of general questions I'd like to ask.

1. Side clips on front shoes -are these a good thing? My farrier uses these on my mare to help bring her toe back however there is another farrier who comes to the yard who does my friends horse and he says he would never use them on any horse, he prefers front clips. I'm quite happy with the way mine is shod but just wondered what the general opinion on this is.

2. Angles - All my old books on conformation say that the angle of the hoof should match that of the pastern - is this still good practice or have things moved on. It's something I always look for as a sign of good shoeing, but maybe things have changed.

Thanks

 

[cptrayes]

This thread is great. I'm a bit obsessive about shoeing as my horse does not have the best feet in the world. Sorry I'm not skilled enough to put photos on, but there are a couple of general questions I'd like to ask.

1. Side clips on front shoes -are these a good thing? My farrier uses these on my mare to help bring her toe back however there is another farrier who comes to the yard who does my friends horse and he says he would never use them on any horse, he prefers front clips. I'm quite happy with the way mine is shod but just wondered what the general opinion on this is.

2. Angles - All my old books on conformation say that the angle of the hoof should match that of the pastern - is this still good practice or have things moved on. It's something I always look for as a sign of good shoeing, but maybe things have changed.

Thanks

Personal opinion - I love double clip front shoes and a set back toe.

Angles - I understand this is still considered correct and most horses will do it if the shoes are taken off, so I think they know it's right as well It mirrors the angle of the shoulder too.

 

[destiny11]

It's great that the natural balance shoes are working so well for you. I know that they are very good for many horses. Your photos are interesting because they show that your farrier has fitted them slightly inside the outer rim of the foot. I don't know if this is normal for natural balance shoeing, but it shows what I meant about the very bottom outer edge of the foot not being terribly important as far as the horse is concerned.

Your first photo also shows a great example of what I was talking about with growth rings. Growth rings show when something has changed in the horse's environment. It's usually food - things like changes of grass when it rains after a dry spell, but it can also be environmental eg extra work or something stressful. Really sensitive flowers can get them from a chemical wormer.

The interesting thing with your horse, though, is that there is a clear upwards deviation in the line of the growth ring (or possibly a downward sweep at the heel) My understanding is that would normally suggest that there is pressure coming up from the bottom of the foot at that point, or possibly that the heel is growing much faster than the rest of the foot. A thermograph of a foot with a growth ring deviation upwards will sometimes show a hot spot on the coronet band, and bad cases will show an upward lift in the hair line as well as the line on the hoof. It is possible that your horse's foot is not quite balanced, or this could be something from the past growing out, but I would ask my farrier about it if it was my horse.


ps your photo looks very much what I have seen other people post as Cytek shoeing, including the shoe being inside the hoof wall and the wide web toe. Can anyone clarify for us what we are seeing here?

Thanks for that. This pic is from a couple of years ago. I had a look tonight, and the curve down to the heel is not as pronounced as it was then, but there is a slight curve. Very interesting though, I shall ask my farrier. I am chuffed though that she has stayed sound all this time

 

[A Guilding]

This thread is great. I'm a bit obsessive about shoeing as my horse does not have the best feet in the world. Sorry I'm not skilled enough to put photos on, but there are a couple of general questions I'd like to ask.

1. Side clips on front shoes -are these a good thing? My farrier uses these on my mare to help bring her toe back however there is another farrier who comes to the yard who does my friends horse and he says he would never use them on any horse, he prefers front clips. I'm quite happy with the way mine is shod but just wondered what the general opinion on this is.

2. Angles - All my old books on conformation say that the angle of the hoof should match that of the pastern - is this still good practice or have things moved on. It's something I always look for as a sign of good shoeing, but maybe things have changed.

Thanks

Side clips are very useful for holding feet together that are likely to over expand, they are in my mind easy to fit and will help reduce the unwanted pull of the long toe on the Deap Digital Flexor Tendon, and in turn the Navicular and the Navicular Bursa, they don't cure these conditions but aid in the fitting of the shoe avoid this unwanted pressure. The same can be achieved with a toe clips in a lot of cases, I think side clips are over used but that is better than long toes. If they are fitted to far under the toe it can alow the toe to drop, you can see the coronary band drop at the toe and the growth rings look uneven. the toe needs some support D) from resting on the shoe, if the shoe needs to be bought back under the toe then a rolled or rocker toe should be applied to prevent the wall from decending and distorting at the toe.

HPA hoof pastern axis that is the front of the wall and the pastern being the same angle is an absolute. If not the the trim of the hoof or the placement of the shoe is wrong. However there are some pathologies that prevent the HPA being correct.

 

[galaxy]

I havent seen a bad job on here yet, which is very encouraging. lots of well fitted shoes with lots of happy clients who love there farriers .

I was thinking the same, but then the cynic in me took over that those with badly shod feet deep down know they are and have chosen not to post so they can put their heads in the sand and ignore it!!

(I'm a riding instructor and see a lot of badly shod feet!!)

Planning on taking photos of my girls feet (has toe clips) to post. They're not perfect, but they're not bad I don't think!

 

[Bikerchickone]

He does look as if he has a very nice set of what I call "tin can feet" They seem to be the same width from top to bottom. I quite like small feet, they always seem very strong to me, but perhaps you could ask your farrier whether he would prefer to see the widen a bit towards the bottom. We can see his shoeing very well from those photos, but he's been treated in a pretty standard way for a horse with his problems. The important thing is, is he sound?

Thanks for the comments, I'm never really sure what I'm looking at, although I always thought my farrier did a good job, just was concerned about the small feet on such a big lad!

Not sure quite what to say on the soundness question. Up until last week we'd been hacking out 4 times a week for up to an hour and a half, then he had MRI on Monday of last week and vet has now suggested I don't ride him because of the problems, navicular, collateral ligaments inflamed/damaged and pedal osteitis. He's not lame but does the toe pointing thing a lot on hard surfaces. TBH I'm at a loss for what to do for him. Considering the Barefoot idea but not on this thread

Do you think there are any problems with how he is shod? He grows hoof very quickly and has very tough feet and always has (one farrier broke his trimmers on my boy when farrier had to cancel due to illness and he went a week longer than his usual 6!) I like to ask questions of my farrier but don't like to sound like I'm questioning his expertise if you see what I mean? Do you think it reasonable to ask about letting his feet be wider at the bottom? Anyone else have any comments? Very keen to learn more about this whole grey area in my head!!

Thanks again for the comments

 

[cptrayes]

Thanks for the comments, I'm never really sure what I'm looking at, although I always thought my farrier did a good job, just was concerned about the small feet on such a big lad!

Not sure quite what to say on the soundness question. Up until last week we'd been hacking out 4 times a week for up to an hour and a half, then he had MRI on Monday of last week and vet has now suggested I don't ride him because of the problems, navicular, collateral ligaments inflamed/damaged and pedal osteitis. He's not lame but does the toe pointing thing a lot on hard surfaces. TBH I'm at a loss for what to do for him. Considering the Barefoot idea but not on this thread

I would suggest that if he has damage showing on an MRI that something needs to change. I have PMd you, it's a separate discussion.

 

[cptrayes]

My 19 Connemara, shod every 7 weeks and is due to be done this friday

That's either a terrible photo or your horse has quite a twist in its foot,can you tell us more?