Can British breeding ever be anything but a bit crap?

[Caol Ila]

I agree that knowing your horses' breeding is a good thing, and Asha makes a very fair point (though no one, ever, has asked me those questions). When buying unbroke youngsters, it counts for a lot. Hermosa's dad seemed to have a good reputation for throwing a really nice, trainable temperament, so here we are.

But I still think banning horses of undocumented parentage from all competitions is too blunt, punitive, and heavy-handed. It's like using a jack-hammer and a bulldozer to dig a few weeds out of your garden. Too many unintended consequences, ones we can't even foresee, and most of the people you will punish won't be irresponsible breeders. If those guys (not just in the UK, but all the places horses get imported from) cared that much, they wouldn't be half-assed winging stallions and mares together in the first place and would be keeping track of who bred who. Having less saleable horses will put off some, sure, but no matter how idiot-proof you make things, you will always find a better idiot. The people shouldering the harshest consequences of this rule will be the schlubs three, four, five or more owners down the line who find themselves with lovely, capable horses who they can't compete. Or sell. It would do crazy things to the market and probably eviscerate show entries. The harm, from my point of view, outweighs the good.

 

[Xmasha]

It's what we used to ride in the 80s (though many of the 7/8ths were ex race TBs "rebranded" and sold on by dealers ?)

I completely agree with you, I'm glad you're going to breed them.
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Thank you Me too ! We have just bought another Class 1 broodmare that’s in foal to another ID stallion so have 2 x class 1s in foal . My grey mare is apparently having a filly so all being well that’s at least 3 maybe 4 ID mares , then my IDx mare has been graded by the SHBGB , we have her daughter too . So we should have at least 5 broodmares . I want to use ID mares as opposed to TB mares and add either TB / Connie /ID stallions depending on the mare .
It’s very exciting/ nerve wracking.

 

[RachelFerd]

I agree that knowing your horses' breeding is a good thing, and Asha makes a very fair point (though no one, ever, has asked me those questions). When buying unbroke youngsters, it counts for a lot. Hermosa's dad seemed to have a good reputation for throwing a really nice, trainable temperament, so here we are.

But I still think banning horses of undocumented parentage from all competitions is too blunt, punitive, and heavy-handed. It's like using a jack-hammer and a bulldozer to dig a few weeds out of your garden. Too many unintended consequences, ones we can't even foresee, and most of the people you will punish won't be irresponsible breeders. If those guys (not just in the UK, but all the places horses get imported from) cared that much, they wouldn't be half-assed winging stallions and mares together in the first place and would be keeping track of who bred who. Having less saleable horses will put off some, sure, but no matter how idiot-proof you make things, you will always find a better idiot. The people shouldering the harshest consequences of this rule will be the schlubs three, four, five or more owners down the line who find themselves with lovely, capable horses who they can't compete. Or sell. It would do crazy things to the market and probably eviscerate show entries. The harm, from my point of view, outweighs the good.

This is totally off topic for the thread now, but I really don't think anyone would be negatively impacted. The moment that breeders realised their horses had no market without papers, they'd get their act together. And if a rule was bought in on a year by year basis, no older horses would be impacted. You could have exceptions in place for the genuinely hard to prove horses - e.g. ponies off a mountainside. So your livery with a 14yo non registered horse would never have to worry... But the breeder if a horse to be born in 2024 might need to get their ducks in a row. Which they should anyway, because there's far too much indiscriminate breeding going on as it is.

 

[RachelFerd]

Thank you Me too ! We have just bought another Class 1 broodmare that’s in foal to another ID stallion so have 2 x class 1s in foal . My grey mare is apparently having a filly so all being well that’s at least 3 maybe 4 ID mares , then my IDx mare has been graded by the SHBGB , we have her daughter too . So we should have at least 5 broodmares . I want to use ID mares as opposed to TB mares and add either TB / Connie /ID stallions depending on the mare .
It’s very exciting/ nerve wracking.

Maybe a stupid question, but why would you want to use ID mares when the TB stallions are generally so expensive? Or are there some non-racing TB stallions you have in mind?

 

[ycbm]

Rachel the one point of mine you keep falling to address is that record keeping like you want has been going on in continental warmbloods from the start but it does not seem to be preventing unsound and/or unrideable horses from being sold to the UK amateur market.
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[ycbm]

Maybe a stupid question, but why would you want to use ID mares when the TB stallions are generally so expensive? Or are there some non-racing TB stallions you have in mind?

The advice in the old days was the mares should be ID because they are easier and cheaper to keep, and TB stallion choice is good. Bearing in mind Asha wants to breed for the amateur low level market, not elite performing sports horses.
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[RachelFerd]

Rachel the one point of mine you keep falling to address is that record keeping like you want has been going on in continental warmbloods from the start but it does not seem to be preventing unsound and/or unrideable horses from being sold to the UK amateur market.
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It has also been going on very effectively in Ireland in the IHR database and seems to be generating lots of lovely horses. Ditto France. And at least continental breeding is generating top championship horses, even if it isn't producing lots of the rest of the market. What is British breeding producing?

 

[RachelFerd]

The advice in the old days was the mares should be ID because they are easier and cheaper to keep, and TB stallion choice is good. Bearing in mind Asha wants to breed for the amateur low level market, not elite performing sports horses.
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Yes - my question is about what TB stallions are out there for sports horses - because I'm pretty sure Asha doesn't want to spend out on a £350,000 on a Dubwai covering.

 

[ycbm]

Yes - my question is about what TB stallions are out there for sports horses - because I'm pretty sure Asha doesn't want to spend out on a £350,000 on a Dubwai covering.

Well now we're back to one of my original points. That we've lost sight of the fact that pretty much any pairing, barring the ridiculous, will result in a horse that the average UK rider can have all the performance they want from.

Starter height at local SJ in the 80'searly 90's was 2ft 9, 84cm. We have forgotten that's well within the capability of the vast majority of horses and seem now to think we need something purpose bred to do it.
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[ycbm]

. And at least continental breeding is generating top championship horses, even if it isn't producing lots of the rest of the market. What is British breeding producing?

I don't care that British breeding isn't producing top level sports horses, and neither, I think, do most people. As you point out, there are plenty of these horses around for people who have the money for them, they don't need to be bred in the UK.
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[DabDab]

This is totally off topic for the thread now, but I really don't think anyone would be negatively impacted. The moment that breeders realised their horses had no market without papers, they'd get their act together. And if a rule was bought in on a year by year basis, no older horses would be impacted. You could have exceptions in place for the genuinely hard to prove horses - e.g. ponies off a mountainside. So your livery with a 14yo non registered horse would never have to worry... But the breeder if a horse to be born in 2024 might need to get their ducks in a row. Which they should anyway, because there's far too much indiscriminate breeding going on as it is.

I think you're massively naiive about both the amount of horses with no parents registered and the reasons for it. I bought my Connemara for less than >£300 and there were many other similar at the sale that day - do you not think seeing her nicely bred stock selling for peanuts would have been enough motivation anyway?

There are absolutely things that can be done, the six month rule would be a good place to start, particularly if both parents are known and on the premises when the vet is doing the youngster's passport, as was the case with my spotty mare.


Your obsession with banning horses without recorded parents from competition without engaging with any of the other issues is frankly just starting to sound a bit snobby and ignorant

 

[Squeak]

IMO the IDx TB is the perfect amateurs breed for grassroots and especially for eventing .
The sort I hope to breed ?

I'm also excited to see how you get on with your breeding. I think it's a huge loss for Irish breeding that we're seeing less of the ID x TB's that were amateur friendly but also very capable horses and instead seeing high amounts of WB's in the breeding.

 

[TPO]

Rachel the one point of mine you keep falling to address is that record keeping like you want has been going on in continental warmbloods from the start but it does not seem to be preventing unsound and/or unrideable horses from being sold to the UK amateur market..

Isn't the issue more that people in the UK keep buying unsound and/or rideable horses?

If there wasn't a market for them then I'm guessing those that weren't fit for purpose would be pts/meat?

No matter how tight any breeding and recording got you can't legislate for stupid ?

Plenty of people continue to overinflate their ability and exaggerate their needs. They get the wrong horses for their ability and those horses/bloodlines get the bad rep. Even in here some (non continental) horses get talked badly of and really the issues lie at the feet of the current owners.

A slight, but related, tangent but I'd be in favour of people needing to be graded and hold licenses to own horses. You'd soon spot a pattern of a level 2 rider not doing well with a level 4 horse type of thing.

edited on old phone to fix the spacing

 

[RachelFerd]

I think you're massively naiive about both the amount of horses with no parents registered and the reasons for it. I bought my Connemara for less than >£300 and there were many other similar at the sale that day - do you not think seeing her nicely bred stock selling for peanuts would have been enough motivation anyway?

There are absolutely things that can be done, the six month rule would be a good place to start, particularly if both parents are known and on the premises when the vet is doing the youngster's passport, as was the case with my spotty mare.


Your obsession with banning horses without recorded parents from competition without engaging with any of the other issues is frankly just starting to sound a bit snobby and ignorant

So, is your view that indiscriminate breeding should continue and be dictated purely by market forces? And the UK potentially used as a bit of a dumping ground for horses that have little value elsewhere?

I don't know... my starting point is that there is too much indiscriminate breeding of poor quality horses going on - and that you probably have to put a bunch of measures in place to try and nudge our way out of that. For welfare reasons as much as for for production of better riding and sport horses at all levels.

 

[Xmasha]

Maybe a stupid question, but why would you want to use ID mares when the TB stallions are generally so expensive? Or are there some non-racing TB stallions you have in mind?

Not all TB stallions are expensive. theres usually a price for TB and Non TB mares. A friend of mine has just used a beautiful TB on her native, im excited to see the foal next year. He was £500. Llangaller stud also have a very nice TB stallion. Sallyf on here also has 2 lovely TB stallions as well. All of which are in the hundreds as opposed to the thousands. Now, im not opposed to spending up to £2k on a stud fee, but no more than that at present

As for why i want to use ID mares over TB mares :
1. I prefer ID mares
2. I love the ID grading system so will only breed from Graded mares
3. Id rather have the option to spice up a ID mare than cool do a TB mare. If ID mare is on the spicier side, she will be paired with an ID to get something less spicy
4. id rather breed what i would buy.
5. It gives me more flexibility .. so i can breed pure IDs / IDXConnie to go for a smaller type
6. As ycbm mentions ID mares are generally tougher / easier to keep.
7. I havent found a TB mare i like enough to breed from.

 

[Cortez]

Rachel the one point of mine you keep falling to address is that record keeping like you want has been going on in continental warmbloods from the start but it does not seem to be preventing unsound and/or unrideable horses from being sold to the UK amateur market.
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I would turn that around and point out that record keeping has not prevented UK amateurs buying unsuitable WB horses. Caveat emptor applies, but I wouldn’t rule out some advantage being taken.

 

[DabDab]

So, is your view that indiscriminate breeding should continue and be dictated purely by market forces? And the UK potentially used as a bit of a dumping ground for horses that have little value elsewhere?

I don't know... my starting point is that there is too much indiscriminate breeding of poor quality horses going on - and that you probably have to put a bunch of measures in place to try and nudge our way out of that. For welfare reasons as much as for for production of better riding and sport horses at all levels.

No. My view is quite clear up thread, in which I list numerous things that need fixed about the whole issue/general UK system.

Not all horses without two listed parents on their passport were bred indiscriminately, or badly. I have given information about my own horses to try and illustrate this - neither was bred indiscriminately, not without thought, and both are damned nice horses. In the case of both breeders life happened after they were born and things didn't go to plan, and the system is such a mess that fixing that after the fact to make either one 'legitimate' (in your eyes) is almost impossible.

 

[Xmasha]

I'm also excited to see how you get on with your breeding. I think it's a huge loss for Irish breeding that we're seeing less of the ID x TB's that were amateur friendly but also very capable horses and instead seeing high amounts of WB's in the breeding.

Thank you . We have plans going in next year for a purpose built foaling/youngstock shed, which will leave my current barn free for the ridden/older ones. Thats going to make life a lot easier, but i dont think it will be ready for next years foals. so they will have to slum it in the current foaling boxes.

Ive joked for years now that im going to breed horses for my friends, and thats what im aiming to do. Im sure there will be ups and downs, but im going to give it a good go !

 

[Squeak]

Isn't the issue more that people in the UK keep buying unsound and/or rideable horses?



If there wasn't a market for them then I'm guessing those that weren't fit for purpose would be pts/meat?



No matter how tight any breeding and recording got you can't legislate for stupid ?



Plenty of people continue to overinflate their ability and exaggerate their needs. They get the wrong horses for their ability and those horses/bloodlines get the bad rep. Even in here some (non continental) horses get talked badly of and really the issues lie at the feet of the current owners.

A slight, but related, tangent but I'd be in favour of people needing to be graded and hold licenses to own horses. You'd soon spot a pattern of a level 2 rider not doing well with a level 4 horse type of thing.

I think the problem is you buy a 4/ 5 yo that is sound and then you start doing the work with it and it can't stand up to it and there was no way of knowing that was going to be the case when you buy it. Nothing to do with stupidity or lack of knowledge (although there are definitely also some of those). Or also you could buy a 10yo out doing the job so you know it's up to it but it breaks down at 11, again because of things that you couldn't necessarily have foreseen.

Also while there are definitely people that over inflate their ability but I think there's also such a lack of suitable amateur horses that it's a lot more likely people are going to end up with something that isn't suitable.

 

[Cortez]

Not all TB stallions are expensive. theres usually a price for TB and Non TB mares. A friend of mine has just used a beautiful TB on her native, im excited to see the foal next year. He was £500. Llangaller stud also have a very nice TB stallion. Sallyf on here also has 2 lovely TB stallions as well. All of which are in the hundreds as opposed to the thousands. Now, im not opposed to spending up to £2k on a stud fee, but no more than that at present

As for why i want to use ID mares over TB mares :
1. I prefer ID mares
2. I love the ID grading system so will only breed from Graded mares
3. Id rather have the option to spice up a ID mare than cool do a TB mare. If ID mare is on the spicier side, she will be paired with an ID to get something less spicy
4. id rather breed what i would buy.
5. It gives me more flexibility .. so i can breed pure IDs / IDXConnie to go for a smaller type
6. As ycbm mentions ID mares are generally tougher / easier to keep.
7. I havent found a TB mare i like enough to breed from.

Speak, many years ago I used to work for the Irish government agriculture body in charge of grading sports horse mares, stallions and foals. It was generally observed that the TB sire on ID mare cross produced MUCH more consistent progeny than the opposite way round: better bone, more harmonious conformation and steadier temperament. There is a study report around somewhere, I’ll try and dig it out for you. Also please note that the best TB racehorse sires aren’t necessarily the best TB sport horse sires.

*Further edited to add: the ID sire on TB mare cross did have one benefit though - better movement.

ETA the reason that fewer traditionally bred Irish horses are being produced here now is that they are simply not getting enough money for them. The sportier WB crosses are much more in demand. I wish Squeak the very best of luck, I hope you can make it pay.

 

[Xmasha]

Speak, many years ago I used to work for the Irish government agriculture body in charge of grading sports horse mares, stallions and foals. It was generally observed that the TB sire on ID mare cross produced more consistent progeny than the opposite way round: better bone, more harmonious conformation and steadier temperament. There is a study report around somewhere, I’ll try and dig it out for you. Also please note that the best TB racehorse sires aren’t necessarily the best sport horse sires.

that would be amazing , thanks Cortez

 

[TPO]

I think the problem is you buy a 4/ 5 yo that is sound and then you start doing the work with it and it can't stand up to it and there was no way of knowing that was going to be the case when you buy it. Nothing to do with stupidity or lack of knowledge (although there are definitely also some of those). Or also you could buy a 10yo out doing the job so you know it's up to it but it breaks down at 11, again because of things that you couldn't necessarily have foreseen.

Also while there are definitely people that over inflate their ability but I think there's also such a lack of suitable amateur horses that it's a lot more likely people are going to end up with something that isn't suitable.

But...if you were buying a horse who's breeding was known you'd have a head start seeing if relatives had stood up to work and were still going well.

I mean yes you could buy the best bred from the best and all its relatives are world beaters but it could still break down. That's horses and their needle legs ?

To me it's multifaceted because people who know better do better, but you can't know what you don't know and you can only do your best with what you know at the time.

Which is why there are self proclaimed trainers who can't even train their own horses to do the basics because they already know it all and dismiss any obvious help. They blame the breeding, upbringing, previous owners etc when really it's things that a competent person would have managed. But that really is a different topic.

Also people who *do* know more and better know how to keep them on the road. I certainly don't have enough ability to ride a horse sound (as part of rehab not to mask things).

If people were made to prove or grade their ability that might have been a check towards knowing to buy a suitable horse. People aren't just overhorsed with fancy imported horses.

My horse is totally different to what's being discussed and is a relatively new breed. He's a QH but I can trace his breeding back to the foundation of the breed, tonnes (hundreds of thousands) of his relatives have outstanding competition and breeding records. His breeding and close relatives all feature in the "Legends" book series about his breed, his grandsires are world famous (randomly my best friend in Australia bred a filly that would be his aunt!*) so I knew about character, longevity, abilities etc despite me just wanting to hack about. I also knew about other bloodlines that were sharper etc and not for me.

On the switch side someone I know bought a horse with notorious/infamous breeding (one previously mentioned on this thread) unseen. You Google those bloodlines and every single article and antidote tells you how tricky and sharp these horses are and how they are not for amateurs. I would have thought you can't know about that sport and not know those sire lines. I was terrified when I found out but its not my place to get involved. Needless to say it has not gone well at all. So yeah, even when all that information is available it doesn't always get used.

I've had a handful of "unknowns" in my lifetime and they've all been great horses so it would have been good to know how to find similar again.

*ETA. My friend got her filly shot because her front leg conformation was so bad and she'd had a few bad falls in the field. So you can breed the best to the best, with a long history of successes, and still end up with a wonky donkey.

 

[SO1]

I have not read the full thread.

However I think the comments about studbook and recording breeding is important.

As we learn more about genetics and inheritance of disorders with equines knowledge of their breeding reduces the risk of breeding from or purchasing a horse with an inherited condition. For example HWD in connemaras, PSSM in New Forests and I think there is also a condition in Fells too.

I think what would also be interesting is for studs books to list age and cause of death as there may be other data that might be forthcoming about certain lines. Some stud books also list competition results.

 

[ycbm]

Thank you . We have plans going in next year for a purpose built foaling/youngstock shed, which will leave my current barn free for the ridden/older ones. Thats going to make life a lot easier, but i dont think it will be ready for next years foals. so they will have to slum it in the current foaling boxes.

Ive joked for years now that im going to breed horses for my friends, and thats what im aiming to do. Im sure there will be ups and downs, but im going to give it a good go !

I'll be along to see your young stock if I ever lose Ludo ?
.

 

[ycbm]

I think what would also be interesting is for studs books to list age and cause of death as there may be other data that might be forthcoming about certain lines. Some stud books also list competition results.

Until ALL this data is collected for ALL the offspring then claims that mandating breeding from known parentage will improve soundness cannot be substantiated.
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[shortstuff99]

Until ALL this data is collected for ALL the offspring then claims that mandating breeding from known parentage will improve soundness cannot be substantiated.
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There are some warmblood lines with known problems that still breed because they make young horse winners. So even having registered breeding is no guarantee breeders are doing it for ethical reasons.

I believe Sandro Hit is a suspect for PSSM and I (personally) have yet to meet a horse sired by Johnson that has lived past 10 years old.

 

[Squeak]

But...if you were buying a horse who's breeding was known you'd have a head start seeing if relatives had stood up to work and were still going well.

I mean yes you could buy the best bred from the best and all its relatives are world beaters but it could still break down. That's horses and their needle legs ?

To me it's multifaceted because people who know better do better, but you can't know what you don't know and you can only do your best with what you know at the time.

Which is why there are self proclaimed trainers who can't even train their own horses to do the basics because they already know it all and dismiss any obvious help. They blame the breeding, upbringing, previous owners etc when really it's things that a competent person would have managed. But that really is a different topic.

Also people who *do* know more and better know how to keep them on the road. I certainly don't have enough ability to ride a horse sound (as part of rehab not to mask things).

If people were made to prove or grade their ability that might have been a check towards knowing to buy a suitable horse. People aren't just overhorsed with fancy imported horses.

My horse is totally different to what's being discussed and is a relatively new breed. He's a QH but I can trace his breeding back to the foundation of the breed, tonnes (hundreds of thousands) of his relatives have outstanding competition and breeding records. His breeding and close relatives all feature in the "Legends" book series about his breed, his grandsires are world famous (randomly my best friend in Australia bred a filly that would be his aunt!*) so I knew about character, longevity, abilities etc despite me just wanting to hack about. I also knew about other bloodlines that were sharper etc and not for me.

On the switch side someone I know bought a horse with notorious/infamous breeding (one previously mentioned on this thread) unseen. You Google those bloodlines and every single article and antidote tells you how tricky and sharp these horses are and how they are not for amateurs. I would have thought you can't know about that sport and not know those sire lines. I was terrified when I found out but its not my place to get involved. Needless to say it has not gone well at all. So yeah, even when all that information is available it doesn't always get used.

I've had a handful of "unknowns" in my lifetime and they've all been great horses so it would have been good to know how to find similar again.

*ETA. My friend got her filly shot because her front leg conformation was so bad and she'd had a few bad falls in the field. So you can breed the best to the best, with a long history of successes, and still end up with a wonky donkey.

There are some warmblood lines with known problems that still breed because they make young horse winners. So even having registered breeding is no guarantee breeders are doing it for ethical reasons.

I believe Sandro Hit is a suspect for PSSM and I (personally) have yet to meet a horse sired by Johnson that has lived past 10 years old.

I have known similar with some sires, which is why I don't think you can say it's lack of knowledge, experience or data that is the reason for unsound horses being bred and bought.

 

[Caol Ila]

I have known similar with some sires, which is why I don't think you can say it's lack of knowledge, experience or data that is the reason for unsound horses being bred and bought.

Haha. Quarter Horse people keep breeding, buying, and showing Impressive lines with HYPP. And they win shows too. Just shows knowing the pedigree -and in this case, everyone knows those lines have an issue- doesn’t stop unsound horses from being bred.

 

[ycbm]

There are some warmblood lines with known problems that still breed because they make young horse winners. So even having registered breeding is no guarantee breeders are doing it for ethical reasons.

I believe Sandro Hit is a suspect for PSSM and I (personally) have yet to meet a horse sired by Johnson that has lived past 10 years old.

I have known similar with some sires, which is why I don't think you can say it's lack of knowledge, experience or data that is the reason for unsound horses being bred and bought.

If the stud book recorded behavioural issues, early death, lifetime soundness issues on ALL offspring the parentage would be worth having, but until it does it is of limited use.
.

 

[ycbm]

Haha. Quarter Horse people keep breeding, buying, and showing Impressive lines with HYPP. And they win shows too. Just shows knowing the pedigree -and in this case, everyone knows those lines have an issue- doesn’t stop unsound horses from being bred.

I unknowingly (hadn't done my research!) bought a horse DNA tested to Impressive sired 15 years after he died (presumably by AI ?) when it was then well known that the offspring had a 50% chance of HYPP because Impressive is the originator of the mutation.

I can only think the sperm was cheap!

I got away with it.
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