Can British breeding ever be anything but a bit crap?

[ycbm]

The 'PM me for more info' part of that suggests there's more negative info to be shared. Just pointing out that your casual comment.may have a bigger impact than expected.

I can see exactly where you get the tenacity to event from. I don't share your opinion of my influence on the event breeding world, you said you found the comment "hilarious" yourself. Enjoy your lovely young horse next season.
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[RachelFerd]

I can see exactly where you get the tenacity to event from. I don't share your opinion of my influence on the event breeding world, you said you found the comment "hilarious" yourself. Enjoy your lovely young horse next season.
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I mean, maybe you inadvertently kept him in my price range?? Who knows. He goes XC like a horse that's destined for the big stuff - just need to keep working on the SJ (which is also a problem a quick Google on this forum would 'warn' me about) ?‍

 

[Caol Ila]

Do you mean it would vanish overnight for new foals born? There's nothing much that can be done about the ones already out there.
I should think that there are far more that have unregistered parents because of various innocent (if annoying/generally incompetent) reasons than for nefarious ones. I have two horses with unregistered parents who fall into that category. It's probably more common than you think.

That's what I'm saying. Every foal born or horse bought until the rule kicks in would have to be exempt. That would make it into an admin nightmare for anyone running a show. Or anyone who wants to show. I ask again, how would you prove it? I don't have bills of sales for my horses. Would you ask owners to show photos, livery bills, vet bills proving they've owned horse for X years so they don't get caught up in that? It's like applying for a family visa proving that you're in a relationship with someone, so don't get kicked out of the country. A lot of faff if all you want to do is punter around a Prelim dressage test or a BE80.

The "annoying" reasons can usually be proven with DNA testing if there are a couple of suspects - it's really not hard to get a grip on it, if there was appetite to do so.

The point of using my BOGOF as an example was that it isn't easy to prove with DNA testing. The horses were sold, and sure, someone knows where they are, but clearly the breed association had no interest whatsoever in hunting down the new owner(s) and asking them to pull some tail hairs. And what if they did and the owners refused? To make the test legit, the owners would have to get their vet to come out, pull the hairs, then sign off on chain of custody paperwork. Why would they do that to help out some poor schmuck hundreds of miles away with a BOGOF foal? What if no one knew where the alleged sire went? It need not be nefarious, either. How many people give their horses' passport organization a new address when they move house? DNA testing only works if you can test both the offspring and the parent. You need something to compare your samples to.

 

[tda]

With the dales pony breed society we have to supply vet drawn dna hair samples with every foal registration since around 1990 I think They are kept on file in case of any dispute I guess.
I just assumed all breed societies did the same

 

[Caol Ila]

With the dales pony breed society we have to supply vet drawn dna hair samples with every foal registration since around 1990 I think They are kept on file in case of any dispute I guess.
I just assumed all breed societies did the same

That's very fair point. I had to send in samples from both my foal and his dam when I registered the foal. Baby daddy is registered with ANCCE, so I imagine that his samples must exist somewhere. I checked their website and they require you to send in the hairs when you register your baby. Still, breed association wasn't going to test. If I'd been more on it, I could have asked if they had those hair samples, but I wasn't (and it might not have done any good...I'm sure there were some interesting politics and conversations after I spoke to BAPSH...to be a fly on the wall....), so it leaves me - and Caso's owner, who luckily doesn't care - in the same boat.

 

[shortstuff99]

They can barely make certain people sell horses with a passport, let alone DNA test them ?

 

[LEC]

The interesting thing about the comments that come up on British breeding is that it's always about sport horses. Not even TBs get a mention. There's a lot of work being done to maintain and improve our native breeds - look at the Eriskay SPARKS program - but, no, it's just breeding WBs that matters.

I think the natives are fine though… yes numbers running low but that’s a different issue. Essentially it’s a closed studbook so that helps! Quality can be maintained and breed shoes etc help maintain standards.

 

[tda]

That's very fair point. I had to send in samples from both my foal and his dam when I registered the foal. Baby daddy is registered with ANCCE, so I imagine that his samples must exist somewhere. I checked their website and they require you to send in the hairs when you register your baby. Still, breed association wasn't going to test. If I'd been more on it, I could have asked if they had those hair samples, but I wasn't (and it might not have done any good...I'm sure there were some interesting politics and conversations after I spoke to BAPSH...to be a fly on the wall....), so it leaves me - and Caso's owner, who luckily doesn't care - in the same boat.

They might not want to do it, but if you offer to pay for the testing they'd be hard pressed to refuse?

 

[stangs]

I think the natives are fine though… yes numbers running low but that’s a different issue. Essentially it’s a closed studbook so that helps! Quality can be maintained and breed shoes etc help maintain standards.

In other words, British breeding as a whole isn't just a bit crap or else the natives wouldn't be fine

 

[Palindrome]

My recollection from another thread was that Rachel is in favour of the French system where a horse cannot even compete unaffiliated without registered parentage.

I'm sure she will correct me if I'm wrong about that.
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They can, they just need to pass a test. It's also not really affiliated vs not affiliated it's called riding club vs amateur/pro.
Same for the rider, you need the equivalent of all the BHS exams to go amateur/pro. You do get a national championship going riding club.

On the breeding debate, I think we also have to consider that someone paying 5 to 15k for a foal won't want just a horse that will plod along and never win anything. The breeders still need to make a living.

 

[tda]

The Sparks program was developed for and with the help of a member of the Cleveland Bay society ( Andy something, can't remember his name) and it is being rolled out into some other native breeds.

 

[LEC]

In other words, British breeding as a whole isn't just a bit crap or else the natives wouldn't be fine

They have different issues and that’s perhaps a PR one. They will die out instead as it’s mainly showing keeping them going. Reduced gene pool etc

 

[Cortez]

That's very fair point. I had to send in samples from both my foal and his dam when I registered the foal. Baby daddy is registered with ANCCE, so I imagine that his samples must exist somewhere. I checked their website and they require you to send in the hairs when you register your baby. Still, breed association wasn't going to test. If I'd been more on it, I could have asked if they had those hair samples, but I wasn't (and it might not have done any good...I'm sure there were some interesting politics and conversations after I spoke to BAPSH...to be a fly on the wall....), so it leaves me - and Caso's owner, who luckily doesn't care - in the same boat.

Even if you did prove parentage, if the stallion isn't approved you won't be able to register as PRE and the colt would be in the fusion anyway register.

 

[Caol Ila]

Even if you did prove parentage, if the stallion isn't approved you won't be able to register as PRE and the colt would be in the fusion anyway register.

Sure, but in a hypothetical situation, where a horse needed to have proven parentage in order to compete, and where I was hypothetically trying to sell him (or indeed, keep to compete myself), we would have been a bit screwed. BAPSH wasn’t going to test.

I don’t know how the French do things or what kind of grade horses are out there (I mean, they happily eat horses, so there's that...). If you instituted a similar regulatory framework here, then you'd make a lot of people's lives a lot harder. Not to mention horses'. Personally, I'd rather have the opportunity to show Fin BD than worry about all the top eventers Britain isn't producing. I imagine a lot of owners with similar horses feel the same way.

Fin is the product of clusterf*ckery on a pretty large scale. Knowledge that any youngsters born on that estate wouldn't be able to show would have made exactly zero difference to the owner. They already can't show in Highland pony breed shows. 'Breeder' would have done what he did, regardless. It just would have made it even harder to find homes for the ponies who could be gentled and backed. Who does that benefit? HPS was already unimpressed. If people are going to be irresponsible about breeding, they are going to be irresponsible. The breeders who care about their breed and want to produce the best horses possible are not allowing random, indiscriminate breeding to happen in the first place (LOL...in theory ...........). They will hopefully continue to do that.

Meanwhile, there are horses all over this country, bred by people who didn't document anything or imported from other places where the breeder didn't document anything. These are not youngstock. People buy these horses as adults, doing a job. Many horses will go through a few owners (I hardly know anyone else who has bought youngstock directly from a breeder). Why should they be punished for buying a horse who was 'undocumented' ten years ago? Would the world really be a better place if all these horses were banned from competing?

I know Rachel is operating on a totally different level than people like me, but if you're advocating for a rule that's going to have a significant chilling effect on punters who want to potter around a Novice test at their local show, then you need to hear from people like me. The ones buying the grade horses. Serious Competitors are most likely to be buying horses with known pedigrees anyway.

 

[DabDab]

The "annoying" reasons can usually be proven with DNA testing if there are a couple of suspects - it's really not hard to get a grip on it, if there was appetite to do so.

Again, do you mean for new foals born or for existing horses? I couldn't 'get a grip' on the parentage of my horses now even if I wanted too. I saw both of Arty's parents when I bought her, so could have taken a DNA sample at that point, but years later I would really struggle to - the dam was a racehorse but I don't even remember her registered name, and the stallion had been gelded by the time I bought Arty and has long since been sold (could attempt to track him down from his BE record I suppose).
Pebbles again I know the stallion but don't know the mare. The breeder got herself in a bit of a mess with too many ponies, and didn't get a lot of them registered within 6 months, lost a load of papers for some she had registered, sold a load of the mares, couldn't remember which foal came from which mare...then a bunch load of the youngsters were put on generic passports and sold through the auctions to get shot, which is where I bought Pebbles. The breeder knows they are Connemaras because that's all she had there, and there was only one stallion, but beyond that ?

Now ok, I like to buy nice horses cheap, so I'm much more likely to come across weirdness like that, but still there must be many many people like me who wouldn't stand a hope in hell's chance of tracking down their horse's parentage if they suddenly needed to have it registered.

 

[shortstuff99]

My maxi cob came off a welsh mountain and has an unregistered dartmoor passport. I've got no chance ?

 

[ycbm]

I don't know anyone who's had horses with unknown parentage and plays at the lower levels of eventing/SJ/dressage or just enjoys the horse at home who thinks we should be mandating parentage and performance recording.

The people who do want that seem to be very much the minority, who have higher aspirations for themselves or for the world's opinion of British Breeding.

There are plenty of horses with recorded parentage and performance available to buy for people who want them. To mandate something that will reduce the availability of lower cost ordinary horses for everyone else doesn't sound very fair to me.

I would agree with it wholeheartedly if the fully registered horses I've bought in the past were sounder and/or saner than the many unregistered ones. But they weren't, the reverse was true and I don't think my experience of that was at all unusual.
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[DabDab]

I don't know YCBM, I would honestly prefer that my mares had recorded parentage or had the reason for it being missing listed on their passport, I just don't think banning unrecorded horses from competition is the way to go about it.

But there are things that could make the situation better - allowing the retrospective registering of parentage would be a start. If I can get DNA or something in writing from the breeder then there should be a way for me to register the parentage of my horse, and there should be one rule on that for all PIA. Secondly, something needs doing with the 6 month rule, because at the moment any horse that doesn't get passported within the 6 months for whatever reason, tends to get plonked on a Pet ID 'replacement' passport with no parentage recorded to protect vet and breeder legally. Thirdly, we need a central horse registration database, it is ridiculous in this day and age that the UK still doesn't have one. And finally, there should be a way for a horse of registered or unregistered parentage to be graded as a general riding horse, so that general good all-rounder sorts can be recognised as such.

 

[RachelFerd]

Again, do you mean for new foals born or for existing horses? I couldn't 'get a grip' on the parentage of my horses now even if I wanted too. I saw both of Arty's parents when I bought her, so could have taken a DNA sample at that point, but years later I would really struggle to - the dam was a racehorse but I don't even remember her registered name, and the stallion had been gelded by the time I bought Arty and has long since been sold (could attempt to track him down from his BE record I suppose).
Pebbles again I know the stallion but don't know the mare. The breeder got herself in a bit of a mess with too many ponies, and didn't get a lot of them registered within 6 months, lost a load of papers for some she had registered, sold a load of the mares, couldn't remember which foal came from which mare...then a bunch load of the youngsters were put on generic passports and sold through the auctions to get shot, which is where I bought Pebbles. The breeder knows they are Connemaras because that's all she had there, and there was only one stallion, but beyond that ?

Now ok, I like to buy nice horses cheap, so I'm much more likely to come across weirdness like that, but still there must be many many people like me who wouldn't stand a hope in hell's chance of tracking down their horse's parentage if they suddenly needed to have it registered.

No, you wouldn't be able to go back and sort for existing horses - it's just the typical claim for horses being unrecorded - multiple stallions exposed to the mare, loose one getting in, etc. could be resolved with DNA testing if there was a shortlist of stallions.

That's why any type of rule on this has to be brought in progressively, so as not to impact horses that have already been bred and exist.

It is how some of the young horse classes already work - the majority can't be entered by horses without recorded parentage - and this has been brought in slowly over a number of years. Doesn't impact the general leisure horse owner as most people aren't aiming at these specialist classes.

But it is one way that you can start to stamp out indiscriminate and bad breeding practice.

And of course there should be a central registration database - it is the total chaos of it all that really annoys me.

 

[WispyBegs]

Although it would have been nice to have known my geldings history and parentage it doesn’t matter a stuff to me.

I have a lovely RC horse capable of progressing up through the levels.

No breeding history should dictate what I should be able to do with said horse, I think the French system would be DISASTROUS for us here in the UK.

ETA: Why would I want to pay a higher price for knowing who the dam and sire is? Just not needed for RC/Low level event type.

 

[Xmasha]

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All the more reason why the parentage is irrelevant for the average buyer if the horse in front of you is doing what you need it to do and passes the vet. Especially if it's got a lower price tag and you don't care about knowing the breeding.

If people like I used to be want to buy a cheap mongrel and train it up to find out what its abilities are before selling it on, why are people who don't want to do that trying to stop them? There are plenty of traceable horses for sale.

I'm writing here from 43 years of buying and selling horses, most of which were mongrels, (apart from the ex racers), four of which were selectively bred from warmblood GP bloodlines and ALL FOUR, were in their own ways a disaster. I'm prepared to believe my experience is unusual, given the right data, but that data is not available for those horses which are currently selectively bred for performance.
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Only just getting chance to reply.. I agree that the average buyer doesn’t always care about the breeding . Ask many of my horsey friends and probably 50% know / care about it
But, let’s look at it a different way .

Lady A at a livery goes out doing grassroots on her 8yo well produced horse ( bought off a dealer or someone like you ) she’s having a fabulous time . Lady As friend has had a tough time finding similar. If Lady As horse had recorded breeding she could point Lady B in the direction of either the breeder or the stallion owner to see if anything suitable was available/known of
Take Avanti Amorous Archie as an example of that .. he produces ( time and time again) saleable nice tempered amateur rides . He didn’t start off with loads of mares , but as time has gone on he has been one of the most popular sires . Why .. because he stamps his stock . Breeders and buyers have caught onto this and his stock sells well . Surely this is what we should be striving for ?

Also, lets consider another angle. You bought ( for peanuts if i remember correctly) a lovely youngster off DD, he seemed a level headed type which quite a few on here would have loved. The average amateur wouldnt have the bottle to buy unseen off DD, so If he had recorded breeding that would have given others something to go on when looking for something similar. It would also help the stallion/mare owne.
I c

Yeah, it would be worthwhile. Encouraging more responsible breeding is always a good thought. But I think forcing it by disallowing people to compete grade horses of unknown breeding will cause more problems than it solves.

Ive never suggested this, and its not something ive even considered.

The problem is that breeding horses for the amateur/ordinary/not-competition-orientated market is absolutely not profitable. I looked into doing this (breeding for the amateur rider) as I realised that 95% of the people who bought my competition-bred, quite expensive horses would have been better off NOT having that type of horse. But they thought they wanted a fancy-wancy WB with big athletic paces and an eager temperament, and they looked for the fashionable, well known bloodlines despite not really knowing what they meant. They even liked paying the higher prices. The trouble is that breeding "ordinary" horses wouldn't have sold into that market at all, and producing them would have cost pretty much the same, so it wasn't going to be viable.

Completely agree that the average rider doesnt need a WB/GP type. Ive seen many people over horse themselves, and i count myself in that too. But when youve made that mistake once you dont tend to make it again ( well i didnt).
As for making ££ i wonder how many WB/sport horse studs actually make a decent standard of living. Id hazard a guess a lot have other revenue streams. Whether that be competing / competion liver /farming.
How much does DNA cost.. i think £120. Thats hardly going to make a massive difference to production costs even if selling at £2k

 

[RachelFerd]

Completely agree that the average rider doesnt need a WB/GP type. Ive seen many people over horse themselves, and i count myself in that too. But when youve made that mistake once you dont tend to make it again ( well i didnt).
As for making ££ i wonder how many WB/sport horse studs actually make a decent standard of living. Id hazard a guess a lot have other revenue streams. Whether that be competing / competion liver /farming.
How much does DNA cost.. i think £120. Thats hardly going to make a massive difference to production costs even if selling at £2k

There is this danger though that people equate competition breeding with being a horse not suitable for an amateur - which also isn't true. There's an absolutely beautiful 4yo at my yard which is bred to event and is a full sister to 4* horse. It is being produced by a teenager, has the most wonderful temperament and would be the envy of nearly any amateur, even a fairly nervous one.

It is helpful to keep and share information that helps people to know that not only are those breeding lines producing 4* horses, they're also producing horses with brilliant temperaments.

 

[Xmasha]

There is this danger though that people equate competition breeding with being a horse not suitable for an amateur - which also isn't true. There's an absolutely beautiful 4yo at my yard which is bred to event and is a full sister to 4* horse. It is being produced by a teenager, has the most wonderful temperament and would be the envy of nearly any amateur, even a fairly nervous one.

It is helpful to keep and share information that helps people to know that not only are those breeding lines producing 4* horses, they're also producing horses with brilliant temperaments.

How is this horse bred ?

 

[ycbm]

Lady A at a livery goes out doing grassroots on her 8yo well produced horse ( bought off a dealer or someone like you ) she’s having a fabulous time . Lady As friend has had a tough time finding similar. If Lady As horse had recorded breeding she could point Lady B in the direction of either the breeder or the stallion owner to see if anything suitable was available/known of
Take Avanti Amorous Archie as an example of that .. he produces ( time and time again) saleable nice tempered amateur rides . He didn’t start off with loads of mares , but as time has gone on he has been one of the most popular sires . Why .. because he stamps his stock . Breeders and buyers have caught onto this and his stock sells well . Surely this is what we should be striving for ?

Also, lets consider another angle. You bought ( for peanuts if i remember correctly) a lovely youngster off DD, he seemed a level headed type which quite a few on here would have loved. The average amateur wouldnt have the bottle to buy unseen off DD, so If he had recorded breeding that would have given others something to go on when looking for something similar. It would also help the stallion/mare owne.

I get both those points. Well argued.
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[RachelFerd]

How is this horse bred ?

Irish bred by Hillviewfarm Superstar - RID out of a TB mare (Tragic Role x Strong Gale) - very classic ISH sort of breeding, but (fortunately) all on record - so mare obviously has super breeding potential in the future herself too.

Edited to add - reading the sire's FB profile, he's also got offspring in the Manchester mounted police. So there's a bit of versatility!

 

[Xmasha]

Irish bred by Hillviewfarm Superstar - RID out of a TB mare (Tragic Role x Strong Gale) - very classic ISH sort of breeding, but (fortunately) all on record - so mare obviously has super breeding potential in the future herself too.

Edited to add - reading the sire's FB profile, he's also got offspring in the Manchester mounted police. So there's a bit of versatility!

See with that breeding I’m not surprised she’s being produced by an amateur. I thought you were going to say a WB (OLD/KWPN etc) IMO the IDx TB is the perfect amateurs breed for grassroots and especially for eventing .
The sort I hope to breed ?

 

[RachelFerd]

See with that breeding I’m not surprised she’s being produced by an amateur. I thought you were going to say a WB (OLD/KWPN etc) IMO the IDx TB is the perfect amateurs breed for grassroots and especially for eventing .
The sort I hope to breed ?

Oh no, classic Irish breeding - but you could see outcry on here about a novice amateur setting off to buy a full relative of a 4* horse for pleasure riding - when the reality isn't quite the same. That said, good horses are good horses - like Galileo's in racing - some of the most expensive horses in the world, but often had super temperaments and work ethics and would have been more amateur proof than many lesser bred TBs.

 

[Xmasha]

Oh no, classic Irish breeding - but you could see outcry on here about a novice amateur setting off to buy a full relative of a 4* horse for pleasure riding - when the reality isn't quite the same. That said, good horses are good horses - like Galileo's in racing - some of the most expensive horses in the world, but often had super temperaments and work ethics and would have been more amateur proof than many lesser bred TBs.

I think you are underestimating the forum members . As I couldn’t imagine anyone being shocked at that . Especially as it’s a TIH . They can be Jack of all trades ( I know I’m generalising )

When I referred to competition horses that aren’t always suitable for amateurs I mentioned WB/GP breeding . Such as Numero Uno / Sandro Hit / Heartbreaker /Totilas / quick star etc etc The TIH is perfect (again in my opinion)

 

[ycbm]

IMO the IDx TB is the perfect amateurs breed for grassroots and especially for eventing .
The sort I hope to breed ?

It's what we used to ride in the 80s (though many of the 7/8ths were ex race TBs "rebranded" and sold on by dealers ?)

I completely agree with you, I'm glad you're going to breed them.
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[RachelFerd]

I think you are underestimating the forum members . As I couldn’t imagine anyone being shocked at that . Especially as it’s a TIH . They can be Jack of all trades ( I know I’m generalising )

When I referred to competition horses that aren’t always suitable for amateurs I mentioned WB/GP breeding . Such as Numero Uno / Sandro Hit / Heartbreaker /Totilas / quick star etc etc The TIH is perfect (again in my opinion)

I suppose it's different thinking about top level eventing where the generalist horse can succeed. Whereas the SJ and DR lines are bred for more freakish talents.

My old intermediate horse was assumed to be IDxTB but the lack of any records are really frustrating to me, as I'd have gladly aimed to buy any close relative I could have got my hands on!