Can we cope with ban on spurs/whips etc.?

[lme]

I do think things are changing. I’ve never really liked to ride with a whip or spurs and hate flashes, harsh bits etc. In the past I have felt out of step. These days less do. I am enjoying doing exactly what I want with my horses. Which is often a gentle hack round the lanes or a walk in hand. Young horse doesn’t mind at all. She’s slowly getting stronger and fitter and horses don’t care if they are ‘behind’ their peers.

 

[st_marks]

I've know many a person bit up a horse and tie it's mouth because it's so strong without any consideration to the fact that they grip up and ride with spurs. So many poor horses can't do right for doing wrong. Go forward off rubbish leg aids and end up hauled back and tied down.

I see this too and it completely stems from rider weakness - rider is simply unfit, doesn't ride enough, or isn't skilled enough for their horse. They're not strong/tactful enough to get the horse to properly move forward, so they put on a big spur. Now the horse is TOO forward, so they add more bit. Now the horse is throwing its head - slap on a martingale, and on and on. Or it goes the other way - horse is too quick so they bit it up. That makes it tightly wound and anxious about the contact so they add spur to better push it into the bridle, but the bridle upsets them, so the horse starts exploding...

In the States, many riders sit at a desk 50 hours a week, take a lesson or two during that time, maybe go to a fitness class or two, and then expect to compete at 1.10m on the weekend. And they want to do that on a quality horse, both for the status symbol aspect of having a $$$ horse, and for the competitive edge. A lot of these horses are not athletic enough for pros but still too athletic for the average adult amateur... so the result is unhappy horses who are being ridden poorly in way too much tack by their amateur owners, and ridden into the ground by professionals the rest of the time in an attempt to make them quieter/easier for the owner's rides. The riders are unhappy too, because they're falling off and getting injured, or their horses are going lame from all the lunging, or they've been stuck at 1m for years and can't figure out why. Obviously the solution is to buy a nicer horse...

 

[palo1]

I do think things are changing. I’ve never really liked to ride with a whip or spurs and hate flashes, harsh bits etc. In the past I have felt out of step. These days less do. I am enjoying doing exactly what I want with my horses. Which is often a gentle hack round the lanes or a walk in hand. Young horse doesn’t mind at all. She’s slowly getting stronger and fitter and horses don’t care if they are ‘behind’ their peers.

That is true but it is also a horse's birthright to be active; to move, naturally to quite a challenging degree. In the same way it is their birthright to live as part of a stable family, to find their natural place in a complex social setting, to have a wide territory that they know intimately, to run and play, snooze and graze when they (or the herd) want. I am not trying to criticise any particular mindset but horses are not always best served by our best intentions to keep them in the lap of luxury and an easy life. And horses are natural problem solvers, curious, intelligent; so keeping them in a way that doesn't utilise these skills is also possibly unfair. I see it from the perspective of a 'natural' herd of feral ponies that I have known and been involved with for several decades. Their life is not as 'easy' as many domestic horses for sure but the way their lives are lived does make me question many of our modern ways of keeping horses, even with 'turnout' and other positive things. I do think domestic horses benefit from reasonably strenuous exercise, from cerebral tasks which use up bits of their ability that would naturally be solving other survival and social issues and I think we could do much more to allow them to be horses and I don't mean just living out their days in a small, well managed paddock. I am not intending to criticise as we have a culture and way of managing horses in the UK that is very established; so deeply ingrained that we often barely think about it with real distance and analysis. It is very tricky really!!

 

[NinjaPony]

Threads like this are why I value being part of this community. I’m in between ridden horses, I’ve got my retired pony and if I ever have the finances to do so, I’ll get another ridden horse and it’s so interesting to here other people’s thoughts and experiences and reflect on how I want to ride/keep a horse in the future. I know what has worked in the past for me, and what I think is important but one of the things I like the most about being a horse owner is you never stop learning and hopefully improving.

 

[ycbm]

That is true but it is also a horse's birthright to be active; to move, naturally to quite a challenging degree. In the same way it is their birthright to live as part of a stable family, to find their natural place in a complex social setting, to have a wide territory that they know intimately, to run and play, snooze and graze when they (or the herd) want.

I have to disagree on your use of the term birthright Palo. They may originally have evolved genetically for all those things, but any one particular leisure horse is only alive because it was bred to provide pleasure/leisure/sport/income for people. For centuries they've been bred to live and behave very differently from what you are describing.

In that context I don't see that they are born with the birthrights that you're suggesting.
.

 

[TPO]

 

[lme]

That is true but it is also a horse's birthright to be active; to move, naturally to quite a challenging degree. In the same way it is their birthright to live as part of a stable family, to find their natural place in a complex social setting, to have a wide territory that they know intimately, to run and play, snooze and graze when they (or the herd) want. I am not trying to criticise any particular mindset but horses are not always best served by our best intentions to keep them in the lap of luxury and an easy life. And horses are natural problem solvers, curious, intelligent; so keeping them in a way that doesn't utilise these skills is also possibly unfair. I see it from the perspective of a 'natural' herd of feral ponies that I have known and been involved with for several decades. Their life is not as 'easy' as many domestic horses for sure but the way their lives are lived does make me question many of our modern ways of keeping horses, even with 'turnout' and other positive things. I do think domestic horses benefit from reasonably strenuous exercise, from cerebral tasks which use up bits of their ability that would naturally be solving other survival and social issues and I think we could do much more to allow them to be horses and I don't mean just living out their days in a small, well managed paddock. I am not intending to criticise as we have a culture and way of managing horses in the UK that is very established; so deeply ingrained that we often barely think about it with real distance and analysis. It is very tricky really!!

It is tricky. And yes, horses lives outside the small amount of time we interact with them are incredibly important.

My horses are split between multiple yards, based on what works best for them. Having them on a single yard would be easier but I don’t think it would suit them as well. I definitely agree that wing able to live in stable social groups and and having the opportunity to use their brains /!let off steam is important.

I see this too and it completely stems from rider weakness - rider is simply unfit, doesn't ride enough, or isn't skilled enough for their horse. They're not strong/tactful enough to get the horse to properly move forward, so they put on a big spur. Now the horse is TOO forward, so they add more bit. Now the horse is throwing its head - slap on a martingale, and on and on. Or it goes the other way - horse is too quick so they bit it up. That makes it tightly wound and anxious about the contact so they add spur to better push it into the bridle, but the bridle upsets them, so the horse starts exploding...

In the States, many riders sit at a desk 50 hours a week, take a lesson or two during that time, maybe go to a fitness class or two, and then expect to compete at 1.10m on the weekend. And they want to do that on a quality horse, both for the status symbol aspect of having a $$$ horse, and for the competitive edge. A lot of these horses are not athletic enough for pros but still too athletic for the average adult amateur... so the result is unhappy horses who are being ridden poorly in way too much tack by their amateur owners, and ridden into the ground by professionals the rest of the time in an attempt to make them quieter/easier for the owner's rides. The riders are unhappy too, because they're falling off and getting injured, or their horses are going lame from all the lunging, or they've been stuck at 1m for years and can't figure out why. Obviously the solution is to buy a nicer horse...

TBF I am old, creaky, and spend most of my life at a desk and the sort of horse I like is the ‘almost but not quite talented enough for a pro’ type you describe. But my solution to being nowhere near good enough to be competitive on such a horse is to give them loads of field time and convert them into family horses who will happily mooch around with me (jumping even a metre course would be more than aspirational but I still enjoy a good canter on a big moving horse) and go out and have fun with my far more able offspring.

 

[st_marks]

TBF I am old, creaky, and spend most of my life at a desk and the sort of horse I like is the ‘almost but not quite talented enough for a pro’ type you describe. But my solution to being nowhere near good enough to be competitive on such a horse is to give them loads of field time and convert them into family horses who will happily mooch around with me (jumping even a metre course would be more than aspirational but I still enjoy a good canter on a big moving horse) and go out and have fun with my far more able offspring.

That's great - you know your horses and you know yourself, and you know how to manage the horse and your partnership to keep everyone happy! I have no problem with folks having desk jobs and nice, athletic horses, I have a desk job and a nice young horse! I just see so many people buying high-octane horses for competition, not having enough time to devote to learning to ride them or getting fit enough to properly ride them, not managing the horse in a way that might take their energy or sharpness down a notch ... and then wondering why it isn't working.

 

[Juniper Jack]

I cant watch top level dressage anymore, I find it ugly and unnatural.

I do too.

 

[Juniper Jack]

To ban them altogether could be really detrimental to dressage at the high levels because of the precision involved in the aids eg between halfpass and canter.

I wonder how much we need dressage at the high levels, though? How many of us or our horses will ever get there?

To me the whole point of dressage is for the rider to be good enough for the horse to be comfortable and happy carrying the rider on a ride for pleasure. Is there really any more point to, say, renvers and travers than there is to capriole and levade, for most of us?

I love the "zen" of dressage, of being "in the zone" of it. But for the higher levels as ends in themselves to become the goal, rather than harmonious horsemanship for both our sakes (horse's and rider's), would be a disservice to both the horse and the rider.

Just my thoughts in print ...

 

[Caol Ila]

My little ex-feral's favourite activity is problem solving over rough terrain. Rode him up a rough track -- used by walkers -- that ascended a 35 degree slope the other day (why? in the words of George Mallory, it was there). OH was entertained. Pony was entertained. I was bricking it. Hurled myself forwards into jumping position, looped the reins, grabbed mane, and let him do his thing. I would not have ridden anything else -- other than a mustang -- up that ridiculous hillside.

He's enjoying his dressage schooling as well. It's a different kind of problem solving. He enjoys using his brain, and I can't imagine that his easy life between his stable and his field throws up the same kinds of problems that his life in the wilds of Morayshire did. But he seems keen and happy in his ridden work -- he whinnies when I walk up to him holding a saddle. Maybe for some horses, there is truth to Palo's post. Because domestic life is pretty easy, they get stimulation, mental and physical, from ridden work. Provided, of course, that the ridden work is pain-free, tactful, and not stressful or confusing.

 

[Lyle]

Gosh, I would love to see more choice for tack at competition. Glue on shoes, bitless bridles, hoof boots...
The HRCAV in Australia has approved Scootboot hoof boots for dressage, and allow glue on shoes as long as the heel bulb is exposed (regardless of cuff height). This really opens up more options for horses and riders to continue to enjoy and (hopefully) develop their partnerships.
I've often pondered what would happen if dressage changed, to being bitless only, no spurs, no whip, in the lower levels, then the addition of snaffles, whip, spurs as the riders progressed up the levels after achieving minimum eligibility requirements. You can achieve a lot bitless, particularly if you have a focus on correct posture and mechanics.
Jumping wise, I'd love to see more a quotation based events, rather than out and out speed.

I'm going to add a story to highlight the importance of coaches, and how they could have long lasting impacts on a rider.
When I was a young lass, I had a few lessons with a local dressage coach, on my middle aged OTTB eventer. This mare had a tendency to open her mouth, and rather than look at WHY, I was told to get a crank noseband. I did so, and the coach cranked it up, saying "in Europe, they have special tools to get these nosebands nice and tight". It made no difference to the mare at all (because we know It was a bandaid) and I switched back to my cavesson and stopped having lessons. Had I seen an 'improvement', this piece of advice could have stuck with me for ever.

 

[milliepops]

[

I wonder how much we need dressage at the high levels, though? How many of us or our horses will ever get there?

To me the whole point of dressage is for the rider to be good enough for the horse to be comfortable and happy carrying the rider on a ride for pleasure. Is there really any more point to, say, renvers and travers than there is to capriole and levade, for most of us?

I love the "zen" of dressage, of being "in the zone" of it. But for the higher levels as ends in themselves to become the goal, rather than harmonious horsemanship for both our sakes (horse's and rider's), would be a disservice to both the horse and the rider.

Just my thoughts in print ...

You could just as well ask how much any of us need hummus, or novels,or new types of roses.

Fwiw I find travers and renvers are useful exercises to help a horse develop straightness, which is pretty fundamental. I've used renvers to help develop positioning prior to a flying change. The whole thing about training leisure horses is pointless in the long run, the horse will eventually die and so will I and we won't have left a meaningful legacy for the world by doing any of it. But I'd rather not get that existential at this time of day.

Training is an end in itself for lots of people in many areas of life, why would you want to limit the heights available if its done in a sensible way?

 

[palo1]

I have to disagree on your use of the term birthright Palo. They may originally have evolved genetically for all those things, but any one particular leisure horse is only alive because it was bred to provide pleasure/leisure/sport/income for people. For centuries they've been bred to live and behave very differently from what you are describing.

In that context I don't see that they are born with the birthrights that you're suggesting.
.

I have to disagree I am afraid though it might be more of misunderstanding than disagreement. You are right in that leisure horses are bred to provide leisure/sport/income. However they do retain that innate equine need for the things I have outlined and those things are the same that we have tried to emphasise in breeding and the things we find desirable in riding horses. We want athleticism, stamina, brains, social skills (in order to comply with training and being kept often in livery/unstable herds etc). What I meant really was that in terms of respecting a horse for what it is, if we keep them domestically we should be aware that they have complex physical, mental and social needs so some of the ways we keep horses (unexercised, kept in small paddocks, mentally and socially unstimulated) are not fair or ethical.

What do you see the birthright of leisure/sport horses as a matter of interest?

 

[ycbm]

What do you see the birthright of leisure/sport horses as a matter of interest?

I think birthright is a completely unhelpful term in the description of the management of horses, particularly when related back to a generic inheritance from being feral centuries before.

Horses need food and water, most of them need some level of protection from extreme of weather, most of them need some level of socialisation. I see their rights as to have those provided and in addition not to be deliberately or negligently hurt or frightened.

I see many horses which appear perfectly content in regimes which are a mile away from the birthrights you suggest they have in the post I queried. Horses which would not be alive if birthrights to behave as their feral ancestors did became mandatory to provide.
.

 

[palo1]

I think birthright is a completely unhelpful term in the description of the management of horses, particularly when related back to a generic inheritance from being feral centuries before.

Horses need food and water, most of them need some level of protection from extreme of weather, most of them need some level of socialisation. I see their rights as to have those provided and in addition not to be deliberately or negligently hurt or frightened.

I see many horses which appear perfectly content in regimes which are a mile away from the birthrights you suggest they have in the post I queried. Horses which would not be alive if birthrights to behave as their feral ancestors did became mandatory to provide.
.

Well I understand the semantic point but for me it is important to consider the reality of what horses are innately. The needs you identify are essential of course and the birthrights I outlined, for me are the things that move them out of the survival zone and into the ethical zone. I don't think it is impossible at all for us to keep horses ethically and to reach toward a far more natural way of managing horses but it would need cultural shift. I support horses being used for leisure/sport as that does fulfull some of their need for movement and cerebral work (as long as it is done correctly). I don't want to outline what I personally think is particularly sad (beyond ignorant riding, deliberate cruelty and neglect etc) as I fear it would offend some people but I do think people who want to keep a horse need to understand exactly how to fulfil the necessities of being a horse. They are different I think to the things that some people think are needed though we have a culture of letting ourselves off the hook thinking that is kindness.

 

[palo1]

I think birthright is a completely unhelpful term in the description of the management of horses, particularly when related back to a generic inheritance from being feral centuries before.

Horses need food and water, most of them need some level of protection from extreme of weather, most of them need some level of socialisation. I see their rights as to have those provided and in addition not to be deliberately or negligently hurt or frightened.

I see many horses which appear perfectly content in regimes which are a mile away from the birthrights you suggest they have in the post I queried. Horses which would not be alive if birthrights to behave as their feral ancestors did became mandatory to provide.
.

ETA - How do you score or understand contentment in a horse? I get the lack of stress indicators and fear/pain indicators as well as positive indicators toward human input and social time with other horses but how do we judge the more complex aspects of their selves?

 

[palo1]

My little ex-feral's favourite activity is problem solving over rough terrain. Rode him up a rough track -- used by walkers -- that ascended a 35 degree slope the other day (why? in the words of George Mallory, it was there). OH was entertained. Pony was entertained. I was bricking it. Hurled myself forwards into jumping position, looped the reins, grabbed mane, and let him do his thing. I would not have ridden anything else -- other than a mustang -- up that ridiculous hillside.

He's enjoying his dressage schooling as well. It's a different kind of problem solving. He enjoys using his brain, and I can't imagine that his easy life between his stable and his field throws up the same kinds of problems that his life in the wilds of Morayshire did. But he seems keen and happy in his ridden work -- he whinnies when I walk up to him holding a saddle. Maybe for some horses, there is truth to Palo's post. Because domestic life is pretty easy, they get stimulation, mental and physical, from ridden work. Provided, of course, that the ridden work is pain-free, tactful, and not stressful or confusing.

Yes - this is sort of what I was getting at; that if we keep a domestic horse I think we are duty bound to provide a level of stimulation which helps a horse to really engage with their world even if that world is a far cry from 'nature'freedom'. Horses are astonishingly capable and to negate that by not allowing them to use their natural abilities in some way seems pretty unkind to me. I like relaxing but I don't want to spend the next 10 years with nothing to do except hang out on social media with the occasional gentle stroll out with the dog - as a ropey comparison to what I am getting at!!

 

[ycbm]

Yes - this is sort of what I was getting at; that if we keep a domestic horse I think we are duty bound to provide a level of stimulation which helps a horse to really engage with their world even if that world is a far cry from 'nature'freedom'. Horses are astonishingly capable and to negate that by not allowing them to use their natural abilities in some way seems pretty unkind to me. I like relaxing but I don't want to spend the next 10 years with nothing to do except hang out on social media with the occasional gentle stroll out with the dog - as a ropey comparison to what I am getting at!!

But Foinavon genuinely was feral.

And being aHighland, is much closer to original feral horses than most leisure horses.

You can't compare his joy in negotiating that tough track to any domesticated horse. Mine would have forty fits if asked to do that and probably break a knee open.

And I'm sorry, but I really don't think you can compare a human's capacity for boredom and need for mental stimulation with a horse's.

You seem also to be missing what to me is a huge point. Horses evolved those capabilities because they had to to avoid predators and find food. That does not mean that they have any mental need to actively to use their innate skills when they have food around and no predators.
.

 

[milliepops]

I think i get what you're saying palo. I agree in part with ycbm that a domesticated/highly bred prey animal has a level of contentment that is met by a sense of safety and freely available food/water etc.
I guess the difference palo is describing is the conditions needed for healthy survival and what you could do in terms of "enrichment" which might go over and above essential needs and address what might give a horse a more full life. what that looks like in reality will be dependent on the individual. the 4yo i just sold would be super happy with basic survival needs for the rest of his life. the 2yo i bred has a much higher drive for novelty and so I get the feeling she's going to be one of those that does better the more she is stretched mentally.

 

[eahotson]

I do too.

I agree.

 

[milliepops]

FWIW i strongly disagree with the idea that horses that retire get bored through not being ridden, specifically. I have one that i thought that might apply to, but her working life was replaced by an interesting place to live and field mates to interact with and she seeks her own entertainment now

 

[palo1]

FWIW i strongly disagree with the idea that horses that retire get bored through not being ridden, specifically. I have one that i thought that might apply to, but her working life was replaced by an interesting place to live and field mates to interact with and she seeks her own entertainment now

I didn't really mean about retirement actually; that is a choice that owners make for their horses usually because of health issues so a ridden life isn't really appropriate in any case. Retired horses often live in quite settled herds too - the problems of keeping a retired horse in a full and ethical way are a bit different I think.

 

[ycbm]

ETA - How do you score or understand contentment in a horse? I get the lack of stress indicators and fear/pain indicators as well as positive indicators toward human input and social time with other horses but how do we judge the more complex aspects of their selves?

I think you are massively overcomplicating this. A horse's primary programming is what it is going to eat and what is going to eat it.

Surely absence of stress, fear and pain are all any animal, humans included, but particularly an animal expecting to be eaten for another animal's lunch, need from life?

 

[milliepops]

I didn't really mean about retirement actually; that is a choice that owners make for their horses usually because of health issues so a ridden life isn't really appropriate in any case. Retired horses often live in quite settled herds too - the problems of keeping a retired horse in a full and ethical way are a bit different I think.

yes sorry, it was an extension of my own thought process rather than a response to anyone in particular. it's often mentioned on here that previously busy horses get bored when they are retired. i don't think they do, particularly, though some look for other types of stimulation. My oldest retiree is back on the yard at the moment and while she scampered up the lorry ramp eagerly, and is quite interested in the stuff going on, i know she will be very glad to get back to her herd and neighbourhood watch routines!

 

[palo1]

But Foinavon genuinely was feral.

And being aHighland, is much closer to original feral horses than most leisure horses.

You can't compare his joy in negotiating that tough track to any domesticated horse. Mine would have forty fits if asked to do that and probably break a knee open.

And I'm sorry, but I really don't think you can compare a human's capacity for boredom and need for mental stimulation with a horse's.

You seem also to be missing what to me is a huge point. Horses evolved those capabilities because they had to to avoid predators and find food. That does not mean that they have any mental need to actively to use their innate skills when they have food around and no predators.
.

I wasn't really suggesting that all horses should have to deal with specifically tricky physical or mental challenges just that horses per se need a variety of physical and mental inputs; whether that is through training for sport or something else. I do think you can compare a horse's capacity for boredom to that of people albeit their need for mental stimulation is different as naturally a great deal, but not all, of their time is or should be dedicated to grazing/dozing etc. I think it is hard to put aside a horse's mental need for stimulation tbh if we are being truly ethical. Wilderness challenges obviously aren't suitable for all horses lol but horses do need things to think about to live full lives and those things may not be the things we think they are, tis all.

 

[palo1]

I think you are massively overcomplicating this. A horse's primary programming is what it is going to eat and what is going to eat it.

Surely absence of stress, fear and pain are all any animal, humans included, but particularly an animal expecting to be eaten for another animal's lunch, need from life?

My experience of horses suggests otherwise; that they need an enjoy something much richer than just 'absence from'...

 

[stangs]

And I'm sorry, but I really don't think you can compare a human's capacity for boredom and need for mental stimulation with a horse's.

You seem also to be missing what to me is a huge point. Horses evolved those capabilities because they had to to avoid predators and find food. That does not mean that they have any mental need to actively to use their innate skills when they have food around and no predators.

Things like play, exploration, curiosity - things that prevent boredom - are both biologically good for a horse, releasing 'good' hormones like dopamine, and also have been suggested to reduce chronic stress in horses (VanDierendonck & Spruijt, 2004). You cannot seriously think that the horse is so cognitively simple that it doesn't need mental stimulation? Your logic would suggest that prey animals in zoos, who are provided food and have no predators, would be sufficiently stimulated - which, looking at the rates of stereotyped behaviours in captivity, is quite clearly not the case. In the breeding of domestic horses, they have never been once been bred to select against their innate needs and natural behaviours, like the need for social contact. Thus, they must require more than just food and safety, like their wilder counterparts.

I dare say you are greatly under-complicating the complexity of the horse's neurobiology. Equids need enrichment.
.

 

[palo1]

yes sorry, it was an extension of my own thought process rather than a response to anyone in particular. it's often mentioned on here that previously busy horses get bored when they are retired. i don't think they do, particularly, though some look for other types of stimulation. My oldest retiree is back on the yard at the moment and while she scampered up the lorry ramp eagerly, and is quite interested in the stuff going on, i know she will be very glad to get back to her herd and neighbourhood watch routines!

Yes I have kept retired horses and seen how very 'busy' they can be with life in their herd; often taking on new stuff because well...they can!! Retirement at any age is a bit different though to a physically active, capaable and potentially young horse doing very, very little in life.

 

[blitznbobs]

I think you are massively overcomplicating this. A horse's primary programming is what it is going to eat and what is going to eat it.

Surely absence of stress, fear and pain are all any animal, humans included, but particularly an animal expecting to be eaten for another animal's lunch, need from life?

Well horses in the wild certainly don’t live free of stress fear and pain…