CDJ withdrawn from paris

[YourValentine]

Bystanders have a responsibility to challenge things, but they cannot be held accountable for the actions of the person in a position of power who is actually committing the abuse. That guilt is all hers.

Trying to pass the blame off onto bystanders is appalling.

I'm not passing off blame.

But everyone present had a responsibility in the moment to act in the horses best interest, and no one did.

Anyone working with children/ vulnerable people has a duty of care to report suspect abuse, even if they don't directly witness it.

Everyone working with/around horses has a duty of care to stop abuse, where ever possible. It was 100% possible to intervene in that lesson and not go back for more lessons as its seems to be implied by the lawyers comments that they did.

 

[Bruce17]

I wonder if there'll be any public comments from other dressage riders, the GB team, or Carl?

 

[ester]

I think it’s wild to even question why no one did anything at the time either during lesson or with video after when it’s so glaringly obvious to me

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Not at all, but there is a big difference between jumping in at the moment, to stop the lesson which is what should have happened vs the challange to report it or make public accusations later on. Which I fully appreciate is difficult with out video and the right support.

Indeed there is: the first may make a difference to one horse, the second may make difference across an entire sport

 

[eahotson]

The number of people saying 'it's not that bad' on the Equisafety video post is disgusting. Tell me you also hit your horse without telling me

No no one is saying that.What they are saying, me included is that sadly they have seen worse than that.Often at shows and in full view of the audience, ring stewards and judges.

 

[KC31]

Truly terrible and no excuse. Having been on some of the biggest professional yards and witnessed some of the treatments of the horses you know this will be the tip of the iceberg. I do wonder what the fall out will be now, with her connections. the Pidgeleys being one. Sponsors, owners, grooms. The list is endless and I don't doubt that more videos will be surfacing. The FEI has needed to clean up the disciplines for a long time, but has chose to bury its head in the sand. That time has now gone and I should imagine we are in for a very rocky ride. I am so glad I chose to step away from my aspirations and enjoy my horses without the pressure to win at all costs.

 

[scats]

No no one is saying that.What they are saying, me included is that sadly they have seen worse than that.Often at shows and in full view of the audience, ring stewards and judges.

But doesn’t that just make it even more horrendous? Imagine saying to the general public, who seem pretty disgusted by that video, “oh far worse goes on at shows and on yards across the country so let’s not blow this out of proportion”

Not great, really, is it?

 

[QuantockHills]

can I hear people laughing and giggling in the background when the horse kicks out.... it isn't nice to see that's for sure!!

 

[conniegirl]

The timing is strange.
Reports say it happened 2.5 years ago.
Reports also say the child was 15 at the time.
The same reports also say the child is now 19 which would make it 4 years ago not 2.5
charlotte says it was 4 years ago.

whilst the video is bad and I absolutely do not condone CDJ's actions I do thing the timing is suspect and that the other adults in the situation should be hauled over the coals as well.
none of them spoke up at the time or any time since, they all allowed the abuse to continue and they allowed a 15 yearold child to be put in significant unnessecary danger as well, also if you believe reports they returned several times. They also clearly did not support the child through what she had seen/experienced and have left her to deal with it.

the only one here who is not culpable is the child on the horse and the horse itself.

 

[HBB]

Look at all the people - even a few on here - still defending her behaviour, or excusing it. How the hell must we look to people right now?

Sharing your comment again as this really needs to sink in to every horse owner and rider!!

STOP defending this behaviour and normalising it, it is ABUSE!!

 

[JFTDWS]

I'm not passing off blame.

But everyone present had a responsibility in the moment to act in the horses best interest, and no one did.

Anyone working with children/ vulnerable people has a duty of care to report suspect abuse, even if they don't directly witness it.

Everyone working with/around horses has a duty of care to stop abuse, where ever possible. It was 100% possible to intervene in that lesson and not go back for more lessons as its seems to be implied by the lawyers comments that they did.

Your previous comment implied shared guilt. I dispute that - the guilt belongs to the abuser.

Bystanders - in an ideal world - would challenge abuse when they see it. But when this sort of abuse is normalised in the industry, and there is a massive imbalance in power, it’s very hard in practice to do so.

I think we need to support bystanders to speak out, not chastise them when they fail to do so.

 

[Burnttoast]

In the video posted by the Sun I’m pretty certain she says “this is so shit at hitting them hard” in reference to the whip. So very clearly not the first time, or an error of judgement, or any of the other trite nonsense she’s been claiming

That's what I hear too. One can only wonder what on earth is lying around in her own indoor.

 

[Mudfukkle]

For all those going ‘it’s not that bad’ on social media, I wonder how much they understand or care about what this means for the sport and social licence.

The entire industry needs a long hard look at itself, whether it’s a RS horse being chased with a whip… to CDJ, none of it is ok.

Really - people think it's not that bad! It's dreadful! Poor horse was trying so hard and didn't have a clue why it was being constantly whipped. I watched the video in the vain hope that it was "not that bad" sadly it was worse than I thought it would be. Gutted, as she was one of my favourites - but no longer

 

[Burnttoast]

Indeed there is: the first may make a difference to one horse, the second may make difference across an entire sport

Unpleasant and even nonsensical as it may appear at the time to simply video and do nothing, evidence-gathering is the only thing that makes any difference in the long run.

 

[equinerebel]

I think I've mentioned on here before how I spent some time working on a pro dressage yard back in my youth. The owner had me get on her saint of a NF pony and repeatedly yelled at me that my hands weren't strong enough to keep the pony in a (forced) outline. I was a teenager and very uncomfortable, so I did continue the rest of the working day but I quit that evening and reported the yard to the college responsible for running the apprenticeship. As far as I can tell, nothing came of it as the rider is still competing and winning.

The sheer force they wanted me to ride with hurt my hands, wrists and elbows, so I can only imagine how it felt to the poor pony. I regret to this day continuing that lesson.

 

[eahotson]

But doesn’t that just make it even more horrendous? Imagine saying to the general public, who seem pretty disgusted by that video, “oh far worse goes on at shows and on yards across the country so let’s not blow this out of proportion”

Not great, really, is it?

No I did not say that it was blowing things out of proportion.In fact in the long run it may help horse sport.The warnings have been there long enough and have been ignored or glossed over.Approximately 4 years ago I saw, on a live stream at Bolesworth, a well know showjumper have a stop which I thought was actually rider error.IN THE RING, in full view of the audience and the judges, he upended his whip, lent across and gave the horse a vicious blow.The horse will have been bruised for days afterwards.Nothing was said.I posted on here and so many people said he is such a nice man!!!! I contacted and reported this incident to the BSJA and pointed out that it was on camera so they couldn't say it didn't happen.They said they would look into it but never came back to me.He is still frquently in the Horse and Hound magazine.

 

[Barlow]

What leaps out to me from the video is the sheer viciousness and force that she is wielding the lunge whip with, the “routineness” of it - doesn’t look like a one off to me and what really upset me about the whole thing is the people LAUGHING at the horse that is reacting in distress.

 

[rescuearacehorse]

I was shocked by the video. I liked Charlotte a lot and I am really saddened by this.

I suppose I am naïve to think it doesn't happen, but I know I would never do that myself. I'm sorry to say that she should be called out an punished, it's very sad though, she was such an inspiration to many. We cannot condone that behaviour - ever.

 

[indie1282]

It’s incredibly sad all round. I have seen comments from equestrians on social media that are saying that it’s not that bad and don’t see an issue with it… I can’t get my head around that tbh - I genuinely think anyone that thinks that sort of behaviour is ok should have a good long look at themselves.

While I like many others have sadly seen worse behaviour than this, it doesn’t mean that it should be the norm.

What I will say is that I do think CDJ does love her horses. But I wonder if somewhere along the way, the line between the love of the horse and the will to win has gotten incredibly blurred…

In the early days she did train solely under CH ( I think?) but I wonder after London 2012 she went with different trainers? I feel at some point she may have been influenced and has gone down the wrong path.

There is also the partnership with MSJ Stud that seemingly went sour. CDJ was riding a few of their horses and that suddenly stopped- the offical line with Freestyle was that fitness was an issue but perhaps there was more to it now?

 

[Welly Boot]

There are no excuses for this. I find it odd that those within that elite top circle are quiet.... maybe there is more to this?

 

[honetpot]

I haven't watched all I get the jist, unfortuately as a young teenager I saw a lot of this, but they were not teaching, and it was a low end dealing yard. I knew enough that is was completely ineffective and its usually comes from frustration and a lack of understanding. There can not be that justification in this case. I just wonder how many people have seen her do something like this and said nothing, because you just do not lose your temper in front of people unless its a habit.

When people say why did no one do anyting, well people are sheep. I have seen about every Fire Safety video the NHS had over forty years, and the ones that stand out are the with real life CCTV footage of a fire, one was in a shop where a customer walked walked past the fire and wanted to be served, the other people just ignored the sat and listened to the fire alarm but did not get up from their chairs, until one did and then they all left. You need someone strong to speack out, because if you stand up and the rest turn on you, you have be certain you are right, and be able to defend you POV.

Apart from the poor animal, its a H&S nightmare, she's teaching, she is lucky she did not get a kick in the head or the young person unseated and injured. That would have made an interesting insurance claim, its not something any horse organisation would endorse. As a lot of pro's use horse sport organisations for their insurance perhaps perhaps their insurance be made invalid if they commit welfare offences?

 

[Mare Stare]

Your previous comment implied shared guilt. I dispute that - the guilt belongs to the abuser.

Bystanders - in an ideal world - would challenge abuse when they see it. But when this sort of abuse is normalised in the industry, and there is a massive imbalance in power, it’s very hard in practice to do so.

I think we need to support bystanders to speak out, not chastise them when they fail to do so.

This ^^

In psychology, there is something called the "bystander effect". It's basically how the Nazis got away with all their atrocities. The majority of people will not speak up if someone they perceive to be in authority is doing wrong. Nobody wants to stick their neck on the line. To do so is actually extremely brave.

 

[palo1]

The footage is utterly grim and so, so disappointing for everyone believing in CDJ's previous success as a model of fair training, for those who have supported her financially etc. Not surprisingly, people will be far more cynical of equestrian activities more widely as a consequence. Part of me wants to ask 'How dare she treat horses, the idea of training, her sponsors and students and equestrianism generally like this'?, but of course these things, these methods don't happen in isolation so,more accurately we should all be asking 'How dare WE allow this to happen, anywhere, in any situation?'.

I have received similar training, on a xc clinic, many years ago. I removed myself and made a complaint. Since then I have had nothing but fair, clear, consistent and entirely comfortable training from a number of people. Perhaps it's not surprising I haven't 'achieved' more if the methods in the clip are required, common, acceptable...I feel horrified not only by the systematic horse hitting but also the whole unravelling of dressage, horse training and lots of the responses to this incident.

I don't want to be in any way associated with this, won't be feeling like watching the Olympics at all: it seems irrevocably tarnished now. I will be going home to hug my horses and remember that most people I know love and genuinely respect their horses and do not need to let ambition overtake the fundamental understanding that it is a privilege to have custody of an animal.

 

[scats]

Putting my neck on the line a bit here but I was chased by a trainer with a lunge whip. Not that long ago.
My horse was frightened and bogged off with me and it worried me, so I expressed my concern. The trainer made me come back round and did it again. I was very reluctant and said I wasn’t happy about it, but trainer said I’m not actually touching her. Trainer then told me that ‘insert big name’ does the same to her, and laughed. The second time, my horse really freaked out and ran off with me. I said I didn’t like it and I wanted to stop. So we stopped. I drove home feeling sick and conflicted.
I stopped my lessons.

I think the use of lunge whips in training horses is very much the norm at the top level.

 

[tristars]

Spectacular timing for full effect, week before paris, how tragic for Charlotte, what a hard way to .learn , when you have had the world at your feet, and every chance to do things many can only dream of. However horses must come first, how ironic If the champion becomes the one whose actiions change horse sport welfare forever,

 

[Bruce17]

There is also the partnership with MSJ Stud that seemingly went sour. CDJ was riding a few of their horses and that suddenly stopped- the offical line with Freestyle was that fitness was an issue but perhaps there was more to it now?

I've always wondered about this and thought there must have been more to it, but nothing seems to have ever come out.
Not only did Freestyle return to MSJ and CD stopped riding their horses, but she also sold all the MSJ horses she actually owned. MSJ Charmer and Finest Hour both sold. And whatever happened to MSJ Smartini, the one named by fans in a FB competition? Never heard from again.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

But doesn’t that just make it even more horrendous? Imagine saying to the general public, who seem pretty disgusted by that video, “oh far worse goes on at shows and on yards across the country so let’s not blow this out of proportion”

Not great, really, is it?

That sort of uproar from the general public might just be what is needed to clean up the dark underbelly of equestrian sport. It might at least get the ball rolling towards a more acceptable recognised high standard of welfare for competition horses, well all horses really.

 

[JFTDWS]

This ^^

In psychology, there is something called the "bystander effect". It's basically how the Nazis got away with all their atrocities. The majority of people will not speak up if someone they perceive to be in authority is doing wrong. Nobody wants to stick their neck on the line. To do so is actually extremely brave.

The interesting thing about the bystander effect is that the more people witness something, the less likely they are to intervene. Shared responsibility, fear of standing out from the crowd.

One person watching alone would be more likely to challenge a trainer. A dozen people watching are more likely to suppress any concerns at that time.

It’s relevant to first aid type situations too. Humans are weird.

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

It could be the adults involved were ruthlessly ambitious for the girl involved and were desperate to train with "the best" and if "the best " is using these methods and getting gold medals it clearly works. They could be non horsey

I watch Dance Mums and the instructor regularly bawls the girls and their parents out, yet they keep coming back because of the exposure it gives the girls (thus securing dance videos with singers etc), the fame of being in a tv show, winning almost every competition they go to etc. Many are definitely living vicariously through their children

It's not right, but again it goes back to that ruthless obsession with success

 

[eahotson]

The good thing about all of this is that it now major.Front pages of all the national papers and major news outlets.It can't be brushed under the carpet the way that it would be if it just came out in the horse press etc.