CDJ withdrawn from paris

[CanteringCarrot]

We don't know how many people are sitting behind the camera, which one is laughing, nor which one of them the client happens to be.

Fair. It sounded like the one filming, but it could not be. I assumed the client was the one filming because I had read that somewhere.

While I am glad that the person came forward, I do believe that all of the adults present they say failed the kid and the horse.

I get that speaking up to someone of that caliber is hard. I stopped mid clinic with a big name before because it was becoming abusive. Such a hard thing to do, but we do have to advocate for the horse.

You also don't know what you don't know sometimes.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

We don't know how many people are sitting behind the camera, which one is laughing, nor which one of them the client happens to be.

The whistleblower might have been sent this, you know how videos do the rounds some from many years ago.

Direct quote from the article I posted:

"My client is the one who sponsored the lesson and is filming."

 

[BACR]

What an incredibly sad day for equestrianism all round, the whipping of that poor stressed and confused horse is heartbreaking. I'm not sure I have fully digested this yet, but I understand that there is the potential here for wide ranging damage to be done to all equestrianism not just in elite sports. I think it's disappointment and sadness that are my overriding emotions because of it. Team GB dressage was always held on a welfare pedestal and now we know that is not the case ( well, not for CDJ). I just hope that some good can come out of this, where we all as a collective equestrian community look at horses relaxation, contentment, wellbeing, happiness, etc. and that is more important than the perfect outline, where the horses head is and the like.

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

I can't believe people are still more interested in the timing of the video than the content

The timing is everything - if it was released during any other time, it would only be reported by horsey publications, this has meant it has gone into mainstream news, and feels a watershed moment as it's impossible for these things to be brushed under the rug

A comparison is the MT video - I dont recall that going beyond horsey publications, I know he isn't British, but he was still a highly successful sportsman

I think it's time to end horse sport at the Olympics, there's been too much head burying in the sand, there's still a hell of a lot wrong with racing, but the powers that be at least had a survey recently of all stakeholders on their views on different matters, and as a result, the whip use has been reviewed, and reduced, and finishes are much more palatable to watch (I'd rather it went altogether) but they are realising if you don't listen it's under threat

I'd be very interested to see levels of sport horse wastage

Maybe we need more undercover people being sent into these yards to see what goes on. Nothing announced as of course, the "methods" would be very carefully chosen on the day of the visit if they knew

Would be interesting to see a poll for whether people think horse stuff should continue in the Olympics

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

Also, I know the pentathlon video wasn't great, but I think these regular occurances are worse - blue tongues, spur marks, rollkur, forceful training methods etc.

The Pentathlete was clearly a case of the moment getting to her, you could see her tears of frustration, and I did feel for her, imagine being in gold medal position and the horse napping away and downing tools when if you'd been luckier in tbe draw, you could have got any one of the others.

That had the effect of removing the riding element from pentathlon

Whereas we have regular occurances of elimination for blood, blue tongues on show and the constant question of "what goes on behind closed doors" - and these aren't just moments of pure frustration like the Pentathlete, these are training methods used to get the results they need

 

[paddi22]

My guess would be this will all blow over in a few weeks, and nothing will change. Remember the gordon elliott video came out, where he was literally sitting on a dead horse. People were horrified for a few days and then everyone seemed to forget and nothing changed.

 

[paddy555]

My guess would be this will all blow over in a few weeks, and nothing will change. Remember the gordon elliott video came out, where he was literally sitting on a dead horse. People were horrified for a few days and then everyone seemed to forget and nothing changed.

sadly a very accurate assessment.

ETA and there will be a next one and then another.

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

My guess would be this will all blow over in a few weeks, and nothing will change. Remember the gordon elliott video came out, where he was literally sitting on a dead horse. People were horrified for a few days and then everyone seemed to forget and nothing changed.

Unfortunately I think this too, GE is still celebrated at the races as he is successful a lot of people seem to have forgotten what he did although at least in his case the horse was beyond being aware what he was doing to it

 

[tda]

Direct quote from the article I posted:

"My client is the one who sponsored the lesson and is filming."

I also thought the filming had been done By a sponsor (of the rider or CDJ, not sure)

 

[reynold]

Pammy Hutton interview is on Sky News Daily Podcast today with Niall Paterson.

It's 20 minutes long and Pammy comes on around 10 minute mark until 17 minute mark.

She did OK especially when challenged that the movements asked are 'unnatural' to the horse.

 

[TheresaW]

Genuine question, but what is the difference with horses in the Olympics and something like the WEG?

 

[LadyGascoyne]

I feel physically sick watching that with the sound on.

The laughter, the cracking whip. It is nothing short of horrific.

I’m feeling very disillusioned about horse sport today, and almost canceled our dressage rider tomorrow just because I feel so embarrassed for the whole sport.

 

[meleeka]

I also thought the filming had been done By a sponsor (of the rider or CDJ, not sure)

The lawyer said they were sponsoring the lesson, so presumably the rider.

 

[bluedanube]

Dutch lawyer clarifies key points in complaint against Charlotte Dujardin

Following the suspension of Charlotte Dujardin by the FEI, Horse & Hound has spoken to Stephan Wensing who was employed to file the official complaint

www.horseandhound.co.uk

You forgot the point where your client laughs while filming, but aight.

It was probably never our laughter occurring because of the situation. It’s a subconscious defence mechanism often employed to protect one from feeling overwhelmed especially when one is confronted by an incongruous event.

 

[LadyGascoyne]

It was probably never our laughter occurring because of the situation. It’s a subconscious defence mechanism often employed to protect one from feeling overwhelmed especially when one is confronted by an incongruous event.

It’s not good enough as a defense mechanism. The correct defense mechanism is “that’s enough, put the horse away now.”

 

[sbloom]

I hope companies look into everyone they sponsor. I’m fairly sure a lot worse goes on.

I hope not worse but there'll be plenty of similar things going on.

The sooner we realise that breeding hypermobile horses and training them to be as spectacular as possible, that riding horses in compression (whether it's harsh bits, hands, full on rollkur, LDR, gadgets) causes compensatory movement patterns and necessitates excess driving of the hind end, the better. "Mildly abusive training techniques" already covers this for many of us, but if not then it's damned sure the next step on the ladder. And when money speaks - through breeding, competing, offering lessons, taking clients horses in, sponsorship - WAY louder than horse centred beliefs, horses lose.

CDJ has always been a hard rider, has ridden in compression, often just as much as much more harshly regarded riders, but somehow Valegro (apparently she said he had a hard mouth, yet Carl had owned him from the age of 2 and she certainly rode him aged 5 as seen in this thread, so how does that happen?) and his softer way of going misled many of us. The training was, imo, always compromised, but I've been led down that path, have trained in a way that compressed the horse, or worse (though no, I've never done anything remotely like this, or that I think anyone here would think is abusive).

Tapping with a whip, if you set a really high bar for functional movement, arguably causes poor kinematics ie provokes the wrong kind of activation. Training needs to return to helping the horse to better balance, of understanding correct movement, posture, balance, musculature, as very few are evident at top levels. We need to understand that these horses need stabilising, not training for MORE range of movement. Our professional organisations, researchers, experts, are leading us up the garden path.

I completely understand the timing, apparently they did try to raise the issue with the FEI before? The vile gas lighting and victim blaming comments show they were right to be wary. We all have moments of "freezing" when the powerful do things we know are wrong, me included.

Lockie Phillips' response is beautiful, there's a YT video too. We need to get passionate about change, but not anger at CDJ. Her comment about "this [whip] is shit for hitting them hard" is absolutely shocking, and it matters slightly less how often the whip made contact, we should not be using fear and provoking those reactions in horses. Not to that level, wherever you sit on the R+ to a punishment kind of training spectrum.

Be angry at the system, focus on the fact that it needs to change, and we need to be part of that change. She needs serious time away, and every single one of us needs to consider how we are around horses and how we can be part of the change. I personally am not sure how we maintain these principles in competitive equestrianism, maybe we've gone too far down the line with so much money involved in the sport. Many would argue that even the way modern tests are written has harmed the horse (removing the double rein back, allowing the horse to come to the vertical in piaffe) and that judging may never be able to be improved to reward truly correct work, especially when so much money comes from the public watching these "spectacular" horses.

Sorry, started off organised and ended up rambling!

 

[SkylarkAscending]

Apologies if this has already been covered - I can’t keep up! - but my sister tells me that the Guardian are saying she has been stripped of lottery funding and was due to have been made a Dame this year.

Newent is now media capital of the world apparently (OK, exaggeration there!) - journalists everywhere for sure, and a group of people huddled by the Valegro statue when I went past just now. I’m waiting for it to be vandalised as a “protest”

 

[CanteringCarrot]

It’s not good enough as a defense mechanism. The correct defense mechanism is “that’s enough, put the horse away now.”

Yep.

Some of us laugh as a defense mechanism or when we're nervous, or otherwise uncomfortable. I really do not believe that was the case here.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

It was probably never our laughter occurring because of the situation. It’s a subconscious defence mechanism often employed to protect one from feeling overwhelmed especially when one is confronted by an incongruous event.

I'm sorry, but no.

I really think it was at the situation.

I get that it can be a subconscious defence mechanism or that some laugh when uncomfortable, nervous, overwhelmed, stressed, etc. but I really don't believe this was any of that. Maybe I'm just jaded.

 

[scats]

Did you contact the BSJA about it?I did.

I went to an official at the show on the day. But as it turned out, there was a woman there already discussing it, so I added I was also there for the same reason. The official said it would be looked in to. I did not contact BSJA, no.

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

She still has over 500k followers on FB, I've just un followed

 

[bluedanube]

I'm sorry, but no.

I really think it was at the situation.

I get that it can be a subconscious defence mechanism or that some laugh when uncomfortable, nervous, overwhelmed, stressed, etc. but I really don't believe this was any of that. Maybe I'm just jaded.

You may well be right. I’m just putting forward an idea because I can’t see anything funny to laugh at…

 

[AmyMay]

She still has over 500k followers on FB, I've just un followed

The final nail……

 

[OldNag]

I am really shocked and angry at that video. It's appalling.
I don't believe this will blow over, and I do think it might hasten the end of horse events at the Olympics.

 

[Equi]

Genuine question because I don’t know.. the cracking surely is the whip not the whip hitting the horse? It would sound more dull I would have thought?

I’m not saying the whip doesn’t hit the horse. It clearly does. But does it hit it as many times as stated? (The video is not clear enough)

 

[scats]

Who were her sponsors? I lose track.

 

[Miss_Millie]

Genuine question because I don’t know.. the cracking surely is the whip not the whip hitting the horse? It would sound more dull I would have thought?

I’m not saying the whip doesn’t hit the horse. It clearly does. But does it hit it as many times as stated? (The video is not clear enough)

That sound is the whip hitting the horse's legs, you can clearly see it hitting the legs in the video and the horse shying away to the wall of the arena every time she strikes.

 

[SkylarkAscending]

Who were her sponsors? I lose track.

She had dozens - her little 3.5T lorry with her name on will clearly have to be returned

 

[sbloom]

Whether the whip hits or not, how does a massive and fear based response help the horse or the rider? This is utterly dysfunctional training even at best. Putting a horse into fight or flight only teaches them to be more afraid, more tense.

 

[94lunagem]

Who were her sponsors? I lose track.

Not the sort of thing I take much notice of either but the Brooke charity has disassociated themselves from her today, she was an Ambassador.