CDJ withdrawn from paris

[paddy555]

Pammy Hutton interview is on Sky News Daily Podcast today with Niall Paterson.

It's 20 minutes long and Pammy comes on around 10 minute mark until 17 minute mark.

She did OK especially when challenged that the movements asked are 'unnatural' to the horse.

I've struggled and cannot find that. Can you give a brief idea of what she said please other than the timing was suspicious.

 

[m1stify]

Thinking about the timing of this and people saying it was calculated. I actually think timing could have been worse and the video released on day 1/2 of the competition and CDJ sent home in disgrace. At least the reserve rider is able to travel and prepare and the team will have a few days to try to put this aside and prepare to compete. CDJ IMO doesn’t deserve to compete in this Olympics and the timing was spot on.

 

[SAS56]

I may be wrong but my understanding after watching the video a number of times is that the sponsor ( of the rider) filmed the whole lesson. The person laughing, in my opinion, is perhaps the regular trainer ( and resident know all) who is trying to justify the treatment. She can be heard saying how the horse is blocking the outside leg etc etc
Whilst her laughter may be a way to shrug off what is happening it does not make for great vewing and listening. Apparently the sponsor and rider were both warned against making it public but have gone ahead now ( perhaps for maximum impact) and I can see why you would. Too much is covered up by the industry and the governing bodies. Even Horse and Hound sits on the fence too much for my liking.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

You may well be right. I’m just putting forward an idea because I can’t see anything funny to laugh at…

That's because you're right in the head

 

[SAS56]

Who were her sponsors? I lose track.

Charles Owen, Fairfax Saddles, Bloomfield (sp) Horseboxes et al

 

[skinnydipper]

Whether she hits the horse with the whip or not, the fact that she has means the whip is now a conditioned aversive.

 

[Bruce17]

KBIS insurance now also disassociated with her

 

[Honey08]

It was just the main BBC1 News article. Pammy Hutton was on too.

 

[Burnttoast]

Whether she hits the horse with the whip or not, the fact that she has means the whip is now a conditioned aversive.

I was told (in the days when I was beginning to think all was not well in this state of dressage) by a minor league dressage rider that the horse needed to be made "afraid of the leg". I think these highly aversive, almost combative methods are really common at all levels, right down to pony club kicking.

 

[SAS56]

I always wondered what happened with Gio and MSJ Freestyle. One minute they were there and the next gone. Gio is a shadow of his former self but while there are mega rich people like the Pidgleys around there will always be a market for made horses.

 

[Barklands]

I always feel so conflicted in these situations. I agree wholeheartedly that the behaviour in the video is unacceptable. But part of me feels so awful that when situations arise like that, the person in question will be absolutely vilified by social media and there really is no escape. She is a mother to a young child, her world has no doubt come crashing down, she has been exposed in the media days before being tipped to medal at the Olympics, her sponsors are withdrawing.

I have no doubt that now she fully regrets her actions. But to have droves of strangers attacking her on social media really does make me deeply uncomfortable and I do have sympathy for her in that regard. Those in glass houses are the words I try to live by.

Please do think before you type, the media frenzy, the losses to her business and the damage to her career will absolutely be enough for her to rethink what we see in that video without every man and his dog wading in.

 

[Miss_Millie]

Lockie Phillips' response is beautiful, there's a YT video too. We need to get passionate about change, but not anger at CDJ

What about personal accountability though? I agree that the issues are deeply systemically rooted, but equally she has had a lucrative career and has actively been financially profited from using these abusive methods. I'm sure she was paid a tidy sum for that private lesson in which she beat a horse and I'm struggling to believe that this could have been a one-off.

To say that we need to be angry at the abusive techniques but not the abuser themselves, just doesn't seem right to me.

 

[SAS56]

I always feel so conflicted in these situations. I agree wholeheartedly that the behaviour in the video is unacceptable. But part of me feels so awful that when situations arise that like, the person in question will be absolutely vilified by social media and there really is no escape. She is a mother to a young child, her world has no doubt come crashing down, she has been exposed in the media days before being tipped to medal at the Olympics, her sponsors are withdrawing.

I have no doubt that now she fully regrets her actions. But to have droves of strangers attacking her on social media really does make me deeply uncomfortable and I do have sympathy for her in that regard. Those in glass houses are the words I try to live by.

Please do think before you type, the media frenzy, the losses to her business and the damage to her career will absolutely be enough for her to rethink what we see in that video without every man and his dog wading in.

Whilst I fully understand your point, who is going to protect the horses if this is not made crystal clear. She has brought this on herself and that was by no means the first time she has used that as a training method. That is evident. I am sorry, but you reap what you sow, and if it stops one horse from a life of being tortured to perform for the elite rider then it will be worth it. That horse was labouring - you could her it in his breathing - far sadder than CDJ is going through.

 

[sbloom]

What about personal accountability though? I agree that the issues are deeply systemically rooted, but equally she has had a lucrative career and has actively been financially profited from using these abusive methods. I'm sure she was paid a tidy sum for that private lesson in which she beat a horse and I'm struggling to believe that this could have been a one-off.

To say that we need to be angry at the abusive techniques but not the abuser themselves, just doesn't seem right to me.

It depends how we use the anger. Screaming across social media, targeting her as the PROBLEM that needs solving...it's not productive for us as people, for our emotions, and it's divisive and leads nowhere. She needs a LONG time out, she deserves to suffer the consequences, fully, but she's a symptom. The problem is WAY bigger, and it's easy for the FEI to simply punish her and do nothing if we simply get angry with her. DO you really think that this sort of stuff is rare at the top level? How many instances will it take to convince you otherwise? The industry is abusive, though to what level you think it is abusive depends on your perspective. The industry, the money, the structure, the power, led to this as much as CDJ's personal foibles did.

 

[Barklands]

Whilst I fully understand your point, who is going to protect the horses if this is not made crystal clear. She has brought this on herself and that was by no means the first time she has used that as a training method. That is evident. I am sorry, but you reap what you sow, and if it stops one horse from a life of being tortured to perform for the elite rider then it will be worth it. That horse was labouring - you could her it in his breathing - far sadder than CDJ is going through.

My point is that I just don’t agree that major trolling and criticism on social media is ever justified. By all means this should be covered by the press, scrutinised by the FEI and reputational damage is deserved. But in my mind no one ever deserves trial by social media, it’s inescapable.

 

[eahotson]

1400 comments below the video in The Times. I have never seen so many comments.

Good.

I may be wrong but my understanding after watching the video a number of times is that the sponsor ( of the rider) filmed the whole lesson. The person laughing, in my opinion, is perhaps the regular trainer ( and resident know all) who is trying to justify the treatment. She can be heard saying how the horse is blocking the outside leg etc etc
Whilst her laughter may be a way to shrug off what is happening it does not make for great vewing and listening. Apparently the sponsor and rider were both warned against making it public but have gone ahead now ( perhaps for maximum impact) and I can see why you would. Too much is covered up by the industry and the governing bodies. Even Horse and Hound sits on the fence too much for my liking.

Well said.

What about personal accountability though? I agree that the issues are deeply systemically rooted, but equally she has had a lucrative career and has actively been financially profited from using these abusive methods. I'm sure she was paid a tidy sum for that private lesson in which she beat a horse and I'm struggling to believe that this could have been a one-off.

To say that we need to be angry at the abusive techniques but not the abuser themselves, just doesn't seem right to me.

You sometimes have to separate the person from some of the things they do I e I like YOU but I sometimes don't like what you do

 

[AmyMay]

It was just the main BBC1 News article. Pammy Hutton was on too.

Anyone want to précis what pH says?

 

[palo1]

sadly a very accurate assessment.

ETA and there will be a next one and then another.

Modern dressage and it's associated training has been called out many times by those at the top and throughout the levels (from Twisted Truths, Classical Dressage etc to individuals on this forum) but the show has rolled on regardless.

Things have to change from within the bubble for it to really be meaningful and whilst money, status and egos are on the line that is very hard. I have felt sad, at times, to not be able to compete with my horses but that is now less of an aspiration than at any time in my life. I am sure a great many people feel similarly; it doesn't look like a safe landscape for our horses - horses that most of us will always advocate for and hope that those training and advising us will protect and keep safe.

 

[nikicb]

I've struggled and cannot find that. Can you give a brief idea of what she said please other than the timing was suspicious.

Here's the link.....

 

[Strawbz]

It's heartbreaking watching that poor horse try his best and not even try once to throw his rider. The bucking and kicking are all directly aimed at CDJ and the whip. How he didn't just go on a ballistic broncing fit is testament to how genuine and giving most horses are.

The fact that this sh!t is going on behind closed doors with a person many of us thought was doing things differently is so demoralising. I agree with so much that has been written on this thread so won't rehash and can only hope these revelations effect change in both training methods and expectations within judging.

 

[teapot]

Tomorrow’s Matt cartoon

https://twitter.com/x/status/1816147495098949929

 

[SibeliusMB]

CDJ saying "This [the lunge whip] is so sh!t at hitting them hard" implies to me that she has whipped/beaten horses often enough to have a preference on the type of tool/whip she uses and that hitting them hard is potentially a regular part of her routine.

 

[luckyoldme]

This. The video is disturbing to watch , but I find it very uncomfortable reading the absolute witch hunt all over social media. Have people forgotten Caroline Flack so quickly ?

I have one word for her or anyone like her, and it's not a nice word.
She completely epitomises the whole fake fronted world we live in today.
She brought this on herself.

 

[madmav]

Olympic committee have been itching for years to ditch equestrian sports. Expense, lack of (in their view) popular interest etc. Princess Anne was on committee many years back and fought successfully to keep them. This awful video could be the last straw.
Find it all so sad. And unnecessary. The horse didn’t go any better for the constant whippings. Rider was probably terrified and put in danger. What on earth was dujardin thinking?

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

The horse didn’t go any better for the constant whippings. Rider was probably terrified and put in danger. What on earth was dujardin thinking?

That is what I find most incomprehensible about the video clip. What on earth was she trying to achieve? Was there any arguable benefit to what she was doing. Did she think it would improve the rider or the horse? It just seemed like a frustrated instructor losing their sh*t because rider and or horse isn't performing to a standard she demands and thinks her instruction should achieve. Ego. It's always money or ego or both.

 

[SAS56]

Am I going mad or before the video came out it was reported that she was whipping it in piaffe but this was canter and trying to get more jump, at one point she was even whipping it to pick up canter. Was this bad reporting or were there other times in the lesson that she was using the lunge whip? I would like to know at one point the whip was brought in. The horse looked tired and was definitely labouring. I also see that she wasn't dressed for riding. I have been fortunate to have had lessons from some greats and they all jumped on my horse if needed. Perhaps better than a whipping.

 

[m1stify]

This. The video is disturbing to watch , but I find it very uncomfortable reading the absolute witch hunt all over social media. Have people forgotten Caroline Flack so quickly ?

Caroline unfortunately took her life the evening of her day in court when they decided to go ahead and prosecute her. Not just the SM aspect.
I expect CDJ is staying well away from SM and has a stable home life which CF did not (she had broken up with her BF who was a complete **)
It’s a very different story.

 

[Rowreach]

The problem is that for years and years whenever people have tried to highlight what has been happening in dressage they've been told that they have no idea what they're talking about, no right to discuss it, and this forum is no different. We even had flounces from members who dressage because we humble lot dared to speak out about the awful things we were witnessing, we've had threads "sanitised" and people banned from posting because of the button pushers who believe the dressage world can do no wrong

So if it takes incontrovertible video recordings to finally out these practices, and if some people lose their sponsors and careers over it, and if it maybe makes other riders question their own practices, then I say bl00dy good job.

For The Horse

 

[Miss_Millie]

DO you really think that this sort of stuff is rare at the top level? How many instances will it take to convince you otherwise?

No I don't think it's rare, I think it's commonplace and that she is just one of many, probably most of them. But the post you're referring to sort of suggests that people like her are trapped in the system, as if they are victims, when they are the ones who have helped to build it.

'Charlotte, like tens of thousands of top equine professionals, is part of this problem. Stuck in a system where she must force performance, force compliance, by any egregious means necessary, so that she can maintain her safety, her success, her image and her acceptance.'

This is where personal accountability is important imo. She doesn't HAVE to do anything, it's not like she's on the breadline having to abuse horses to make ends meet. She has become very wealthy from her career and could have chosen to retire or find a different profession years ago if she was uncomfortable with the methods being used. Several people upthread have stated that they have stepped away from those circles when they witnessed things they couldn't stomach.

I'm not saying that there should be a witch hunt, but the insinuation that she is somehow a victim in an elite sport worth millions, a sport which society and certainly horses could live without, does not sit well with me.

I think that equestrian sport as a whole is rotten to the core, make no mistake.

 

[SAS56]

The problem is that for years and years whenever people have tried to highlight what has been happening in dressage they've been told that they have no idea what they're talking about, no right to discuss it, and this forum is no different. We even had flounces from members who dressage because we humble lot dared to speak out about the awful things we were witnessing, we've had threads "sanitised" and people banned from posting because of the button pushers who believe the dressage world can do no wrong

So if it takes incontrovertible video recordings to finally out these practices, and if some people lose their sponsors and careers over it, and if it maybe makes other riders question their own practices, then I say bl00dy good job.

For The Horse

Oh well said! I will never forgive Horse and Hound for the way they report on some dressage tests - one in particular was when the first progeny of Totilas were starting and seeing a 9 yr old struggling to do a GP test. Way too early and just uncomfortable to watch. All wrong and H and H wrote a very glowing account.