CDJ withdrawn from paris

[OrangeAndLemon]

Is there a CDJ helmet in the CO range? Just wondering if there might be some bargains to be found....

 

[splashgirl45]

I have assumed it's not one of hers, but can't be certain. Maybe another poster may know.

No it’s not one of her horses and it’s not at Carls yard

 

[SAS56]

But she has the advantage of being a human with self awareness - one would hope

And choice....

 

[reynold]

The dressage trainer related to the video is now named in an article in the Mail. She claims she is not the whistleblower.

 

[Burnttoast]

Cars kill people. Shall we ban them? Motorbikes are widely known to be even more dangerous. Them too? Because obviously if a few people do something dangerously, no one should do that activity/use that equipment at all.

And again…farming practices. A far bigger welfare issue. I eat meat, I am allergic to too many vegetables to survive well without it. But that means I accept that an animal died so I can live. I try to eat my eggs from the free range farm up the road where I can SEE them outside. To be aware of where the rest comes from.

And welfare - there was a post on Facebook this morning by a welfare charity about a young horse found in a horrible state. Why are people going all out for this - a few minutes of unpleasantness for an otherwise cared for horse, when they don’t seemingly care about the rest? Yes she should be punished - she is being. Yes her sponsors should drop her and people shouldn’t book lessons with her.

But should we throw the baby out with the bathwater? No, that’s just hysterical. Change the rules? Oh yes. Be more transparent? Definitely. But ban keeping horses and competing at any level? Not a terribly rational response.

Actually in some ways banning animals in sport is extremely rational. It isn't actually a necessary activity, unlike farming. Its banning would remove a particular tranche of welfare issues at a stroke. And while the horse in the video is 'cared for' there's no evidence any of that care is contributing to its wellbeing other than it's fed, groomed and protected from the weather, and tigers. It may have joint and psychological issues as a result of its work. It may never or rarely be turned out or allowed to touch noses with another horse. Given where it is and what it's doing, those things are more than possible, in fact.

 

[Burnttoast]

They do, however, understand the tone of voice and body language that go alongside. I really dislike hearing animals spoken to in that way. And it is counter-productive.

And it really speaks to a lack of the zen-like calm that you hope would characterise any half-way decent trainer.

 

[JenJ]

But one could think of C du J herself as a horse, trained from a young age both by her family and professionals to win competitions and rewarded for doing just that?

One could, but one would be foolish to.

 

[Cortez]

I have eliminated a rider for swearing at their horse in the ring, and jerking it repeatedly in the mouth. A young rider.

 

[criso]

Just a couple of things to add to everything that's been said.

I'm slightly disturbed by the focus on who took the video and their background. I don't think it matters whether the footage was taken by someone who was appalled; someone who agreed with her methods, or if it had been CCTV. It's the content that matters. Revealing the identity of the person won't change anything and just expose them to abuse from CDJ fans. I caught a snippet of Amanda Abbington on C4 news the other night and she and her family are getting death threats because she's exposed a much loved dancer.

The other thing is saying the method/force doesn't work. Of course it works, it is rewarded by high marks and Gold medals. The account upthread of a demo where CDJ hit a horse to make it sharper off the leg, it may not have looked as if it achieved much but presumably it's something done regularly with all her horses and she was winning.

it makes me sad as I had hoped she was training without force but I agree with some of the comments that post Valegro her riding looked harder and it does make me think that there needs to be a more radical rethink of what is considered 'good'.

 

[little_critter]

I honestly don't think you can get to the top with truly horse centred training. Measuring the success of her rehabilitation by whether she can get ethically trained horses to the top just isn't going to happen imo as the FEI will never change to that extent. I mean even the rules have changed over the decades to allow work that isn't truly biomechanically correct, and movements removed that test the quality of training.

I hope that she stays away from competition, ploughs her own furrow with a combination of amazing training, rehabbing horses and supporting charities, whilst telling her story so everyone learns from it.

I'm dreaming, clearly, but we can wish...

I don't think she can get to this top with horse centred training.
The FEI need to redefine what the top is ie less expression, more harmony.
BUT
a) I can't see that happening, and certainly not quickly
b) I don't trust the human race not to drift back into seeking dramatic looking movement from horses.

 

[lynz88]

They do, however, understand the tone of voice and body language that go alongside. I really dislike hearing animals spoken to in that way. And it is counter-productive.

This is true. But, I don't see any harm in saying "oh c'mon, stop being {an idiot, stupid, silly, dumb, a d*ck, b*tch, etc.}" or "don't be a {d*ck, b*tch, etc.} to him/her (as in another horse)" etc.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

This is true. But, I don't see any harm in saying "oh c'mon, stop being {an idiot, stupid, silly, dumb, a d*ck, b*tch, etc.}" or "don't be a {d*ck, b*tch, etc.} to him/her (as in another horse)" etc.

Don't you?

 

[lynz88]

Completely agree. I did call my mare an effing b*tch last night, but that was after her back foot landed squarely on my backside whilst I was trying to poultice her, so I do feel it was somewhat justified. She was also busy stuffing her face with treats at the time so I doubt she paid me much attention.

However, I don't feel that attitude has any place during a training/warm up session. The only time I ever recall swearing whilst schooling is at myself if I'm cocking something up, never directed at the horse. I might give out a bl00dy hell after a particularly violent spook or something, but always in a good humour.

This was more like what I meant

 

[lynz88]

Don't you?

See my response to EquestrianE01 who put it far better.

 

[slimjim86]

Agreed, but I also think that anyone who truly loved their horse(s), would not compromise their ethics to get to the top in the first place. So I struggle to have much empathy for the people who choose to put medals above their horse's welfare. I imagine that there are many talented riders out there who have kept away from (at least high level) competition for this reason. Not because they couldn't do it if they wanted to, but because they wouldn't be capable of treating their horse that way.

This all day long. I would love Charlotte to choose to retire and then do some big media piece about WHY these things are done at that level and that it's because that is what I'd rewarded, obviously explaining all the issues now would seem like excuses and not taking responsibility, she did after all make a choice to hit the horse several times but I would like her to spotlight the WHY things get so messed up at the very top and try to force some change.

 

[Sanversera]

Someone quoted one line from Pammy Hutton but I think it's worth putting in context.

"We need to ride into the future.
I do not condone the behaviour. I will fight for riding.
If riding stops; horses are unnecessary; too expensive to keep for pets. Let the cull begin.
We all must work for a future with kindness and teach fair communication with our horses.
Welfare must come first.
Dressage is a French word for “training” these methods are not training.
However; punishment has happened .
Let us all hope next week in Paris puts “ease and harmony” back on top priorities.
And it’s not what we can do for horses, they help us.
Mentally and physically healers par none.
Please join me in working towards a future with horses paramount."

I don't agree with it's too expensive to keep horses as pets. I have two who spend their days lolling in their paddock,rolling in mud and emptying my bank account . I wouldn't have it any other way. I love them for just being horses .

 

[teddy_]

I personally find it loathsome when people exhibit verbal aggression towards horses, or any animal. To me it shows a lack of imagination, vocabulary and a fundamental misunderstanding. I know a young woman who's horse tried to jump out of his field, got stuck on the barbed wire fence and the only thing she had to say was "what a f*cking tw*t". Euuuuuuuuuurgh, gross.

 

[HuskyFluff]

I had a message from my mum this morning. Completely non horsey, but has always loved watching dressage at the olympics.

"I feel sick. I'm never watching dressage again. It should be banned until they can learn to treat a horse kindly"

Just one opinion from an ordinary member of the public...

 

[splashgirl45]

That doesn’t harm the horse just your take on it.. I don’t like swearing with the f or c word but some people swear all of the time

 

[criso]

I don't agree with it's too expensive to keep horses as pets. I have two who spend their days lolling in their paddock,rolling in mud and emptying my bank account . I wouldn't have it any other way. I love them for just being horses .

Most people have horses to ride or some other activity, unless you have your own land, it is expensive. Of those that are kept as pets, there will be a proportion that were ridden but no longer can be and the owner keeps them because they are already emotionally involved. I wonder what the percentage of horses in the UK were brought and kept as pets.

 

[JFTDWS]

Tone is probably relevant. I might call a horse a *** muppet (any descriptive expletive) if they jumped into a barbed wire fence. I’d also be helping them and talking kindly to them, even if the words aren’t very clean.

I don’t like people talking about their horses in the terms popularised by a sweary Facebook group because they’re usually trying to characterise the horse as problematic and give a motivation to their behaviour that I don’t think is fair (he’s not bucking because he’s a *whatever*, he’s bucking because you socked him in the mouth /etc).

And I really hate people talking harshly to horses, whatever the vocabulary, or swearing at them in anger.

 

[teddy_]

Tone is probably relevant. I might call a horse a *** muppet (any descriptive expletive) if they jumped into a barbed wire fence. I’d also be helping them and talking kindly to them, even if the words aren’t very clean.

I don’t like people talking about their horses in the terms popularised by a sweary Facebook group because they’re usually trying to characterise the horse as problematic and give a motivation to their behaviour that I don’t think is fair (he’s not bucking because he’s a *whatever*, he’s bucking because you socked him in the mouth /etc).

And I really hate people talking harshly to horses, whatever the vocabulary, or swearing at them in anger.

Well, quite.

It is the insinuation that an animal does anything to be deliberately awkward is what irks me!

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

Has anyone got a link to the warm up video?

 

[Chianti]

I was amazed that we still fund athletes with lottery money regardless of how much money they are making. I wonder how much she got off the rest of us over the years.

It really irritates me. You see the yards the top people own, with lovely homes, and do wonder why we're paying for it. I'd much rather the money went to support riding schools. Also when they win and don't thank the lottery for supporting them!

 

[ester]

It’s perhaps where a pro/am distinction would be helpful, with funds supporting the am side more. I wonder how they work it out.

 

[lynz88]

Like everything, there's nuance. It's when the nuance doesn't get factored in then there's an issue. Calling a horse an idiot because they aren't understanding your commands, is likely to be a genuine issue (e.g. saddle doesn't fit and is acting up), etc. is a very different kettle of fish.

 

[Miss_Millie]

May the toxic positivity begin! Lalalala everything is fine, nothing to see here

 

[Tiddlypom]

I had a message from my mum this morning. Completely non horsey, but has always loved watching dressage at the olympics.

"I feel sick. I'm never watching dressage again. It should be banned until they can learn to treat a horse kindly"

Just one opinion from an ordinary member of the public...

Agree.

Non horsey family reactions assume, after witnessing what the nation’s golden girl got up to, that most horses are being ‘trained’ this way and are appalled.

Not helped by the horsey types defending her wittering on how you see worse on show grounds/at livery yards - it that really supposed to make what CDJ did less bad?

As to the timing of the release of the video - spot on, the non horsey ones say, for maximum publicity immediately pre Paris 2024 to thoroughly out not only CDJ but also what is going on as training for equestrian sport.

We genuine horse lovers who would not dream of treating our horses in such a way are being lumped in with those who do. Why should anyone believe our protests that we don’t - it’s all there on film casually being done by a respected national figure.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Well I admit I have sworn at most of mine over the years, usually it is the tone that they recognise not the name I have called them! My bad but I really, really think we are getting a bit too precious to be taken seriously if we start judging owners attitude to the welfare of their horses by if they have ever sworn at them or not.

 

[spotty_pony2]

I can’t think of any professional yard ive ever set foot on ever that would stand up to 24/7 CCTV.

Which is part of the reason I no longer work with horses and my own horses live a hippy outdoor herd lifestyle.

could of written this myself. It’s part of the reason I don’t work with them any more either as I can’t stand some of the ways they are treated and found it upsetting.