CDJ withdrawn from paris

[JFTDWS]

This has been playing on my mind today. The whipping is a terrible look and obviously an unhappy experience for the horse but as someone recently struggling with work pressures, what really gets to me is the relentless "more...more...more..." of it. The horse is operating, it isn't resisting except to dish out the occasional kick out protest at the incessant whipping, it looks like it's trying to be a good dressage horse, how immensely psychologically stressful it must be for it to endure such a clear, intense and prolonged message from the trainer, "not enough, more, do better, more, do better...." So, putting to one side the whipping, which I'm absolutely not condoning but which won't have done any physical damage, are less "in your face" methods of heaping pressure onto horses to reach ultimate standards much better or is the psychological harm just the same? They're both abuse when you really think about it.

This is why I don’t support modern competitive dressage at all - I won’t throw my support behind the rest of the team, as we have been implored to - because this is just one horrible example of people treating horses as tools. Just a thing that you can pressure and force to win you medals. It’s grim, and it’s a fundamental part of high level competition in my opinion.

 

[Cortez]

This has been playing on my mind today. The whipping is a terrible look and obviously an unhappy experience for the horse but as someone recently struggling with work pressures, what really gets to me is the relentless "more...more...more..." of it. The horse is operating, it isn't resisting except to dish out the occasional kick out protest at the incessant whipping, it looks like it's trying to be a good dressage horse, how immensely psychologically stressful it must be for it to endure such a clear, intense and prolonged message from the trainer, "not enough, more, do better, more, do better...." So, putting to one side the whipping, which I'm absolutely not condoning but which won't have done any physical damage, are less "in your face" methods of heaping pressure onto horses to reach ultimate standards much better or is the psychological harm just the same? They're both abuse when you really think about it.

The Mark Todd thing was unpleasant but at least it had an end game - pressure horse to jump of bank, horse jumps off bank and learns jumping off bank isn't the end of the world and is an end to it's woes - I can't see what this horse could have done to satisfy her, it really was an exercise in training a horse to endure relentless pressure. Horrible.

Well, that's the problem, isn't it: there's always demand for more; it's never enough with this kind of training. Horrible way to treat a sensitive creature, any creature.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

May the toxic positivity begin! Lalalala everything is fine, nothing to see here

View attachment 143519

Was disappointed to see Pammy Hutton share this on the Equestrians Act Now FB page too. 'Enough is enough'? Hang on, the story only dropped a few days ago and is surely up there as one of the biggest scandals in equestrian sport and in GB sport generally. But nope, no, no, we're all just moving along now...

 

[ester]

Was disappointed to see Pammy Hutton share this on the Equestrians Act Now FB page too. 'Enough is enough'? Hang on, the story only dropped a few days ago and is surely up there as one of the biggest scandals in equestrian sport and in GB sport generally. But nope, no, no, we're all just moving along now...

It smacks of sweep it under rug and crack on which is the whole problem in the first instance with regards to there never being some actual progress/improvement

 

[sbloom]

This has been playing on my mind today. The whipping is a terrible look and obviously an unhappy experience for the horse but as someone recently struggling with work pressures, what really gets to me is the relentless "more...more...more..." of it. The horse is operating, it isn't resisting except to dish out the occasional kick out protest at the incessant whipping, it looks like it's trying to be a good dressage horse, how immensely psychologically stressful it must be for it to endure such a clear, intense and prolonged message from the trainer, "not enough, more, do better, more, do better...." So, putting to one side the whipping, which I'm absolutely not condoning but which won't have done any physical damage, are less "in your face" methods of heaping pressure onto horses to reach ultimate standards much better or is the psychological harm just the same? They're both abuse when you really think about it.

The Mark Todd thing was unpleasant but at least it had an end game - pressure horse to jump of bank, horse jumps off bank and learns jumping off bank isn't the end of the world and is an end to it's woes - I can't see what this horse could have done to satisfy her, it really was an exercise in training a horse to endure relentless pressure. Horrible.

There is so little understanding of how horses learn, of how their bodies best stand up to being ridden, especially as a lot of it has been known for thousands of years, and the modern learnings that come through are accessible for all, in so many ways, with the advent of social media. But people stay in a competitive bubble, they only see people who pretty much train like them, and gradually it becomes a complete and utter echo chamber where what was once unforgivable becomes the norm.

To offer the horse no release for a try, as you say to keep asking for more, more, more, whatever the aiding and volume thereof, is utterly cruel and I agree, it's makes it heartbreaking as much as the actual whipping does. But it's just a short journey from riding always in compression, with a dropped thoracic sling, and having to use stronger and stronger rider aids to get forward (including the ridiculous and harmful leaning back seat), to this.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

It smacks of sweep it under rug and crack on which is the whole problem in the first instance with regards to there never being some actual progress/improvement

Yup. And this will be to the detriment of dressage and horse sports in general. Especially with it so in the wider public eye. People are not stupid, and they know when they are being treated as such. BlondeDressage on Instagram points out that in the press the animal welfare activists' arguments are so much better made. Not that I agree with them all but they do bring up valid criticism and then you've got BD and FEI with some pretty empty sounding statements instead of facing the criticism head-on.

 

[sbloom]

https://www.facebook.com/EquitopiaCenter is a really good site/page/organisation for people to plug into - very cheap memberships, lots of brilliant, modern but horse centred content. A great place to start to learn about the most current takes on behaviour, posture, movement patterns, management etc.

 

[Goldenstar]

https://www.facebook.com/EquitopiaCenter is a really good site/page/organisation for people to plug into - very cheap memberships, lots of brilliant, modern but horse centred content. A great place to start to learn about the most current takes on behaviour, posture, movement patterns, management etc.

This a really good place to go.
Lots to learn.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

Found the article I mentioned earlier re: FEI https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/equestrian/articles/cv2gzzyrj3lo

FEI 'very confident' equestrian will stay on Olympic programme​

Ingmar de Vos, president of the FEI, said he was "very shocked and disappointed" when he saw the video of Dujardin whipping a horse's legs.
The footage shows Dujardin, 39, hitting a horse with a long equestrian whip.
Whips are used in all equestrian disciplines and when employed as a training aid should be utilised lightly to communicate with the horse.
De Vos told BBC Sport: "We have many riders, we have many athletes, many horses in our sport, so it is only a very low percentage, but every case is a case too much.
"So that is why we need to constantly educate our athletes and their entourage because what was allowed 30 years ago or accepted 30 years ago is probably not any more today."
Animal rights charity Peta has called for the removal of equestrian events from the Olympic programme.
However, De Vos believes equestrian events - eventing, dressage, show jumping - will be at the Los Angeles Games in 2028 and Brisbane in 2032.
"I'm very confident because we've been doing so much for horse welfare. We will be on the programme in Los Angeles and we will also be in Brisbane," he said.

Excuse me while I go recover from the headache from rolling my eyes so hard.

 

[ester]

I mean he couldn’t say nah, we’re going to get booted out for sure

 

[JenJ]

1 signature so far.

Gained a second signature in the last 40 minutes...

 

[SAS56]

The Mark Todd thing was unpleasant but at least it had an end game - pressure horse to jump of bank, horse jumps off bank and learns jumping off bank isn't the end of the world and is an end to it's woes - I can't see what this horse could have done to satisfy her, it really was an exercise in training a horse to endure relentless pressure. Horrible.


I actually did a 2 day clinic with Mark Todd and it was fabulous. My cob decided he didn't like going into water sometimes and Mark T actually got on him - all 15.2hh - and rode him at the water like an exocet missile - pressure on, pressure off He repeated it a couple of times, then I repeated it, and we never had a problem again. I did fell a little sorry for him and the coverage at the time but he had already moved on. With CJD you are right, the pressure is unrelenting and the reward is non-existent

 

[Smitty]

I'm struggling with any horse wanting to be ridden. I really am. Sorry.

I don't have a problem with PTS. Suffering over.

 

[cauda equina]

Found the article I mentioned earlier re: FEI https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/equestrian/articles/cv2gzzyrj3lo

FEI 'very confident' equestrian will stay on Olympic programme​

Ingmar de Vos, president of the FEI, said he was "very shocked and disappointed" when he saw the video of Dujardin whipping a horse's legs.
The footage shows Dujardin, 39, hitting a horse with a long equestrian whip.
Whips are used in all equestrian disciplines and when employed as a training aid should be utilised lightly to communicate with the horse.
De Vos told BBC Sport: "We have many riders, we have many athletes, many horses in our sport, so it is only a very low percentage, but every case is a case too much.
"So that is why we need to constantly educate our athletes and their entourage because what was allowed 30 years ago or accepted 30 years ago is probably not any more today."
Animal rights charity Peta has called for the removal of equestrian events from the Olympic programme.
However, De Vos believes equestrian events - eventing, dressage, show jumping - will be at the Los Angeles Games in 2028 and Brisbane in 2032.
"I'm very confident because we've been doing so much for horse welfare. We will be on the programme in Los Angeles and we will also be in Brisbane," he said.

Excuse me while I go recover from the headache from rolling my eyes so hard.

Yeah it's disingenuous to make out that everything else is fine and CDJ is the only bad apple
Wasn't there a ban on filming in warm ups recently? Why would that be, if everything is so above board?

 

[sbloom]

Yeah it's disingenuous to make out that everything else is fine and CDJ is the only bad apple
Wasn't there a ban on filming in warm ups recently? Why would that be, if everything is so above board?

It was some time ago. I took photos at the 2003 Europeans in the warmup and it was already a little controversial then, in fact I might have even had to be sneaky about it. It was pre digital so they're in a box somewhere I think.

 

[cauda equina]

It was some time ago. I took photos at the 2003 Europeans in the warmup and it was already a little controversial then, in fact I might have even had to be sneaky about it. It was pre digital so they're in a box somewhere I think.

I thought it was much more recently, like in the last year?

 

[Jenko109]

I don't know if it's already been said, but perhaps Mark Todd is a good example.

It was only two years ago that the video was released of him thrashing the horse who wouldnt jump into the water.

I cannot see how this is much different.

People seem to have moved on and forgiven and his career is still very much alive.

 

[cauda equina]

And he's still Sir

 

[Equi]

Is it because he is a man? Are people more shocked because a woman has done this?

 

[sbloom]

I thought it was much more recently, like in the last year?

Earlier this year there was a ban which was much more about intellectual property and their exclusive financial deals with broadcasters. I'm discussing the original ban on photographing warmups - my memory may be hazy, it may be that they started keeping the warm up away from the public at some point, but obviously photography may have been banned before that. Have Googled quickly but can't find anything.

 

[Janique]

I really have respect for people riding bridless, only with a small cord around the neck, no bit, no spur and no pressure.

For me, they are the real horseman and horsewoman of the future they can feel their horses, understand them and it seems like magic to me.

They might not aim to go to the Olympics but they are a true relationship with their horses.

Patty Hutton saying that all horses will be culled is ridiculous, millions of people have horses and enjoy them, they have no need to compete and it's fine.

I think she is going a bit far and doesn't make much sens tbh.

Some riders don't care if no one is watching them ior they aren't in the limelight, they ride alone in a field and enjoy having a relatishionship with their horses,

 

[JenJ]

.Some riders don't care if no one is watching them ior they aren't in the limelight, they ride alone in a field and enjoy having a relatishionship with their horses,

The best riders don't care if no one is watching them ior they aren't in the limelight, they ride alone in a field and enjoy having a relatishionship with their horses

 

[sbloom]

Patty Hutton saying that all horses will be culled is ridiculous, millions of people have horses and enjoy them, they have no need to compete and it's fine.

I think she is going a bit far and doesn't make much sens tbh.

The end of anything with animals may mean some "culling", I hate to use the word, but it's a one off. We would stop breeding these unhealthy sport horse freaks, which is a much better benefit for horsekind, let alone stopping the abuse we're discussing.

 

[Bellaboo18]

May the toxic positivity begin! Lalalala everything is fine, nothing to see here

View attachment 143519

This is just awful. Surely people can support Team GB AND not forget what's emerged this week? I hope this conversation never stops so we keep moving in the direction of better welfare.
I've posted on the group but looks like admin has to approve it(?)

 

[conniegirl]

Patty Hutton saying that all horses will be culled is ridiculous, millions of people have horses and enjoy them, they have no need to compete and it's fine.

Pammy hutton was talking about if all riding was banned, not just competition.

And yes there would be a cull. For a start all the top competition horses and the studs that breed warmbloods and racehorses.

 

[Elno]

Has anyone seen any of her riding demos such as at Your Horse Live or similar? I was there a couple of years ago watching her, she was on a grey mare. There was part of the demo that I think shocked the whole audience, it certainly earned a gasp from the crowd. The horse was riding around in canter (beautifully in my amateur view)…out of seemingly nowhere Charlotte whipped the horse 3 times very sharply and very hard in my opinion. The (confused!) horse shot off to the other side of the arena in a panic. Charlotte then told us breathlessly that is what she wanted, for the horse to react sharply as she’d put her leg on and it hadn’t reacted quickly enough in her opinion. She then continued doing this a few times…really riling the horse up and her saying she does this in training. Every time the horse panicked and bolted forwards. I remember watching really shocked by it and it has never sat easy with me, even as she tried to explain her logic I couldn’t wrap my head around it. She was hitting hard, you could hear the whip deafeningly from near the back where I was sat. Why would you want to create such a panic in your horse so much that it bolts around with you just to get an invisibly sharper reaction. It was complete fear based training and I’ve gone off the woman completely since watching that made me very sad for her horses.

Horrible...

Last year I've had several dressage training sessions with a previous horse I had (current one is "just" a happy hacker and retired brood mare, for which I'm currently pretty happy about since I've lost all faith and interest in dressage because of all the recent scandals) with a pretty well established dressage trainer specialised in bringing on young dressage horses. The thought behind her training was the same- we worked really hard on making my horse sensitive to the leg. The way she instructed was: 1. Leg aid. 2. No reaction? 3. Leg aid + a single tap with the dressage whip behind the girth to make my point across. 4. Praise for correct answer. Horse improved vastly in less than 2 sessions, but I remember that I still felt bad having to whip my horse for it to happen. The things you describe above is just abuse. But hey, what do I know, right? I'm just a happy hacker dabbling a tiny bit in dressage. No where near the status of the likes of CDJ.

With all that's been brought to light these couple of years have made me completely sick of dressage and top level equine sport. I will not watch the Olympics -neither dressage or SJ (even though my country has a real chance of a medel thanks to Peder Fredricson and HvE) nor do I think I will ever again ride for a dressage trainer. If it takes this kind of abuse of a gorgeous, kind animal to get to the top- I absolutely don't want anything to do with it.

I truly understand how you brits must feel. The horse community in Sweden is shocked by the news as everyone else, but I really don't think it compares to what you must feel about this. It would be for us, I reckon, the same if for instance Peder Fredricson would get caught whipping or barring a horse. It's just unimaginable.

 

[JFTDWS]

I think that - when you’re trying to convince the non-horsey public that horse riders are decent people who care about their animals - leading with (paraphrased) “if we aren’t allowed to ride and compete them we will just have them killed” is somewhere on the spectrum between counterproductive and ridiculously out of touch.

I don’t dispute that a lot of horses would be killed - competition horses, race horses especially - but that’s precisely the problem. These horses exist only because they have value when they fulfil human expectations and demands. Flagging this up doesn’t make riding sound more ethical, does it?

Fwiw, I have three. All bought for competition on some level, at some point. They would all live out their lives for as long as I can make that their reality, even if I could never ride them again. I’m many things, but I’m not a hypocrite.

[edited for typographic error]

 

[Elno]

Owned by the Australian lady videoing.

But the Australian lady apparently went to to facebook/instagram, and later also news media to state that she isn't she whistleblower and the one filming?

 

[PoppyAnderson]

I've seen Charlotte ride IRL so many times. It was always a beautiful, harmonious picture. Never rough or in any way abusive. Many riders in the warm up would be drilling their horses over and over and over, whereas she'd be practising a few movements and then letting the horse relax. Her level of skill was peerless. Other GP riders would be gobbing their horses, bouncing around, inadvertently jabbing the horses sides with their spurs cos they lacked finesse. She's always been adamant about the horse being in front of the leg and forward off the aid and the video looks to me like she's not content with the level of forwardness from the horse/rider and has resorted to cruel and abusive practices. I am still reeling from it all and feel so many different emotions. Mostly, I just wish to god she hadn't done it. For the horses sake, for her sake and for all her fans worldwide who looked up to her.

 

[Ifmpw]

So where do we go from here ?
the leisure riders thoughts will be ignored as "we don't get it"
the professional rider will probably think - well i stand a better chance of winning now she is gone, best be carful what I do, especially where folk can film me, lets introduce a Non Disclosure clause in staff and pupil contracts and ban any sort of phones near the arena, stables etc ?