CDJ withdrawn from paris

[tda]

It really irritates me. You see the yards the top people own, with lovely homes, and do wonder why we're paying for it. I'd much rather the money went to support riding schools. Also when they win and don't thank the lottery for supporting them!

I always thought that a lot of top people in various disciplines did not own their yard/house, it was bought for them to use by the owners of the horses, who I imagine are still the main funders.
I know Charlotte was part owner of some horses, which if she then sold for mega bucks she could buy her own place
Dunno

 

[suestowford]

I had a message from my mum this morning. Completely non horsey, but has always loved watching dressage at the olympics.

"I feel sick. I'm never watching dressage again. It should be banned until they can learn to treat a horse kindly"

Just one opinion from an ordinary member of the public...

Your Mum is not wrong. If that's what it takes to produce a successful dressage horse these days, then the competitions themselves are toxic.
I don't think anyone involved in this is looking good atm. Not the riders, the owners, the judges or the FEI.

 

[Chianti]

Has anyone seen any of her riding demos such as at Your Horse Live or similar? I was there a couple of years ago watching her, she was on a grey mare. There was part of the demo that I think shocked the whole audience, it certainly earned a gasp from the crowd. The horse was riding around in canter (beautifully in my amateur view)…out of seemingly nowhere Charlotte whipped the horse 3 times very sharply and very hard in my opinion. The (confused!) horse shot off to the other side of the arena in a panic. Charlotte then told us breathlessly that is what she wanted, for the horse to react sharply as she’d put her leg on and it hadn’t reacted quickly enough in her opinion. She then continued doing this a few times…really riling the horse up and her saying she does this in training. Every time the horse panicked and bolted forwards. I remember watching really shocked by it and it has never sat easy with me, even as she tried to explain her logic I couldn’t wrap my head around it. She was hitting hard, you could hear the whip deafeningly from near the back where I was sat. Why would you want to create such a panic in your horse so much that it bolts around with you just to get an invisibly sharper reaction. It was complete fear based training and I’ve gone off the woman completely since watching that made me very sad for her horses.

I'm amazed that she would do that in public. If that's for public display what does go on in private?

 

[meleeka]

Most people have horses to ride or some other activity, unless you have your own land, it is expensive. Of those that are kept as pets, there will be a proportion that were ridden but no longer can be and the owner keeps them because they are already emotionally involved. I wonder what the percentage of horses in the UK were brought and kept as pets.

There also the point that keeping a horse as a pet isn't ideal at a livery yard because of turnout constraints. I know many people that have horses as pets, but they all rent/own their own fields, so they can live out as much as possible.

 

[Chianti]

I always thought that a lot of top people in various disciplines did not own their yard/house, it was bought for them to use by the owners of the horses, who I imagine are still the main funders.
I know Charlotte was part owner of some horses, which if she then sold for mega bucks she could buy her own place
Dunno

But the lifestyle that the top riders lead is way beyond that of most of us. I have often wondered why we should support very rich people, who spend a fortune on one horse, so that they can get said horse competed? It's not just horse sport - GB funds sport competitors far more than most countries. We were top of a medal table at some big multi sport competition. Michael Johnson brought up how much we spend on sport and the cost of each medal - it was millions. In the mean time councils are cutting facilities for young people because they're on the verge of bankruptcy. If someone wants to be a grand prix dressage rider then fine - but why should working class people pay for that?

 

[eahotson]

I have eliminated a rider for swearing at their horse in the ring, and jerking it repeatedly in the mouth. A young rider.

Well done.

 

[SAS56]

I have just read the article where the lady states she was not the whistleblower but admitted she was there at the time. Which leads me to think that she was the person laughing through the video, which is worse in my opinion. It is stated that there were 3 there at the time - the rider, the filmer who was the rider's sponsor - so she must be the third.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I have just read the article where the lady states she was not the whistleblower but admitted she was there at the time. Which leads me to think that she was the person laughing through the video, which is worse in my opinion. It is stated that there were 3 there at the time - the rider, the filmer who was the rider's sponsor - so she must be the third.

In that case I expect the FEI will want to speak to her as part of the investigation so it is best that she keeps her own counsel at least until she has been interviewed by them.

 

[Rowreach]

But the lifestyle that the top riders lead is way beyond that of most of us. I have often wondered why we should support very rich people, who spend a fortune on one horse, so that they can get said horse competed? It's not just horse sport - GB funds sport competitors far more than most countries. We were top of a medal table at some big multi sport competition. Michael Johnson brought up how much we spend on sport and the cost of each medal - it was millions. In the mean time councils are cutting facilities for young people because they're on the verge of bankruptcy. If someone wants to be a grand prix dressage rider then fine - but why should working class people pay for that?

It's around £100m each year for high performance sport, £250m each year for grass roots/community sport. The argument is that sporting achievement at HP level has major knock on benefits for the UK economy as a whole, helps global relationships, and the "Olympic effect" encourages more people into sport. Community sports projects do get funding from other sources as well, but it's never enough generally. I know more about Irish sport and how it's funded than I do UK sport, but you have quite an advantage at all levels compared to Ireland.

 

[HollyWoozle]

I think part of why this has troubled me so much is that I feel guilty, grubby and ashamed, as if we have been found out. By that I mean to say that whilst I know I have never behaved as CDJ in that video, and that most of the horse owners/riders/trainers I know and have heard of hopefully haven't either, I feel that deep down we did know this sort of thing happens in "our" sport and have done for a long time. Now I somehow feel ashamed to be associated with the sport, even though these methods are not used by the majority, because I DID know that these things happen in the horse world to some degree. Now the non-horse world knows it too.

Having said that, I feel glad that this has made me and many friends question the ethics of what we do and have done with horses and I do think it will have a positive impact overall.

 

[jaimejc]

My own opinions on this as others have mentioned, pretty much 100% of the publics view in this is negative, the only people who are saying, "it's not that bad" are those within the industry, and that just reinforces the stereotype that this is the normality in getting these horses to this level. Which will do damage to the sport moving forward unless everyone takes a collective stance.

CDJ has been caught, but there will be others that are probably petrified of anything coming to light regarding them right now, she's the poster girl and this has caused huge ripples across all equestrian sports.

From what I've seen CH is shall we say a lot easier on his horses than CDJ, he's said she is quite hard on her horses, but she has been at his yard since 2007, so there is no way both he, the grooms, and everyone else involved would have not picked up on this kind of behaviour, that makes them all complicit to a certain extent in my view.

She has apologized, but that's just the PR machine working away, one of the things she said was I apologise to Team GB and sponsors, says she doesn't train her horses that way, but has not actually apologised for the treatment of the animal in question.

Her career will be rock bottom right now, but as humans we are a fickle bunch, we move on, we start to forget the serious consequences of it, even those who have cheated or caused controversy come back, everyone loves a comeback story, however the big difference here is her actions were on a defenseless animal, one in which she was supposed to be an ambassador for. The UK is a very animal loving country, we love our pets, dogs cats and horses, more so than some of our European counterparts I'd say, this has hit a bit chord with a lot of people.

The surname Dujardin, is pretty distinctive, this will stick in the public mind, the level of news it's generated is amazing, and rightly so, front page news, Daily Mail, BBC sport etc. she was the poster child and now villain in the story, she will no doubt be known in some parts as Charlotte the horse whipper, or other such names.

If she does decide to make a comeback I would think it would be very difficult, she is a very driven competitive person there is no doubt in that, but what happens if say she is banned for a couple years, comes back and then wins gold, thus becoming the most successful female Olympian in the UK, I don't know how the public would take that, she could easily go on for another 20yrs like CH, she wouldn't compete to make up the numbers I'm sure, but to win.

And then the public might think, hang on you've won off the back of abusing animals, you've won again, how have you been treating your horses to keep above the competition, even more so when you think about the money involved, she's a very wealthy woman now, upwards of 20M i believe, her horse at the last olympics was sold for 4-5M, she's sold others since, was paid a lot of money to fly first class to Australia and do a masterclass in Australia earlier in the year, gets paid alot from people like the Pidgleys to coach and teach, some will say she is mistreating horses, and selling them for large amounts of money because they have been coached by CDJ. That wouldn't sit well in the public eye at all.

It will be interesting to see where she ends up, her word is turned upside down, she could retire and slip away, but if you've ridden horses and completed since you were 7 years old, can you switch that mentality off.

 

[Maxine67]

Like the majority of us I am appalled and disappointed by the events this week, I genuinely thought she was one of the good ones, it's now making me wonder about all the others
A genuine question though - can top level dressage be trained kindly? Or are they only able to achieve that level of movement by non too kind methods?
Does anyone know of any YouTube channels that show kinder trainers? I'm genuinely interested in watching how/if those movements can be achieved without force/cruelty

 

[bonny]

Like the majority of us I am appalled and disappointed by the events this week, I genuinely thought she was one of the good ones, it's now making me wonder about all the others
A genuine question though - can top level dressage be trained kindly? Or are they only able to achieve that level of movement by non too kind methods?
Does anyone know of any YouTube channels that show kinder trainers? I'm genuinely interested in watching how/if those movements can be achieved without force/cruelty

I struggle with the thought that any horse wants to be schooled fullstop let alone forced into doing perfect tests endlessly.

 

[Maxine67]

I struggle with the thought that any horse wants to be schooled fullstop let alone forced into doing perfect tests endlessly.

I agree with you, in an ideal world horses should be allowed to just be horses

 

[nettle]

Like the majority of us I am appalled and disappointed by the events this week, I genuinely thought she was one of the good ones, it's now making me wonder about all the others
A genuine question though - can top level dressage be trained kindly? Or are they only able to achieve that level of movement by non too kind methods?
Does anyone know of any YouTube channels that show kinder trainers? I'm genuinely interested in watching how/if those movements can be achieved without force/cruelty

Have a look at Anja Beran’s work. She puts videos on Facebook. It’s classical dressage, not competition dressage, so her horses are very calm and to me, look happy in their work.
She runs a five day workshop every year where you can go along and watch morning and afternoon sessions. I have been three times and never seen any treatment of a horse I wasn’t happy with. You can see from her horses reactions to her they have not been walloped. You are also able to wander round the stables, around forty five horses there, mostly stallions, I’ve never been anywhere so peaceful!

 

[Gloi]

Part of the reason I'm not keen on high level horse competitions of any kind, be it dressage or racing etc, is the amount of air travel the animals undergo. It can't be good for the horses to fly half way round the world on a regular basis and it certainly isn't good for the planet.

Plenty of parts of the world also don't have the same qualms about animal abuse as the UK and EU and I'm sure there's plenty of places who would be keen to have Olympian trainers for their horses no matter what they have done.

 

[Cortez]

It's precisely because they're all doing it that this kind of riding & training has become normalised. It's what the judges are used to seeing, and are seeking, this kind of brittle, tense, frightened brilliance. Riders, trainers, owners above all else want to win: this is what it takes to win.

 

[palo1]

It's precisely because they're all doing it that this kind of riding & training has become normalised. It's what the judges are used to seeing, and are seeking, this kind of brittle, tense, frightened brilliance. Riders, trainers, owners above all else want to win: this is what it takes to win.

Grim. Systematic bullying in any situation is very challenging to address. There has to be a huge cultural shift and zero tolerance until a fairer culture is embedded; that tends to be expensive and painful - I'm not sure the dressage world really wants to take that on. There are people involved in training and competing that do have integrity - I hope their voice and methods are heard and seen more.

 

[Maxine67]

Have a look at Anja Beran’s work. She puts videos on Facebook. It’s classical dressage, not competition dressage, so her horses are very calm and to me, look happy in their work.
She runs a five day workshop every year where you can go along and watch morning and afternoon sessions. I have been three times and never seen any treatment of a horse I wasn’t happy with. You can see from her horses reactions to her they have not been walloped. You are also able to wander round the stables, around forty five horses there, mostly stallions, I’ve never been anywhere so peaceful!

Thank you I'll have a look, I feel like I need to see some positive training to restore my faith in the world again

 

[Cortez]

Thank you I'll have a look, I feel like I need to see some positive training to restore my faith in the world again

I've seen Anja Beren ride and train; she is IMO one of an unfortunately vanishingly rare coterie of truly ethical, educated, first-principles dressage trainers.

ETA: she also wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of being competitive, which of course is neither her ambition nor relevant.

 

[sbloom]

Your Mum is not wrong. If that's what it takes to produce a successful dressage horse these days, then the competitions themselves are toxic.
I don't think anyone involved in this is looking good atm. Not the riders, the owners, the judges or the FEI.

Agree with your Mum.

Like the majority of us I am appalled and disappointed by the events this week, I genuinely thought she was one of the good ones, it's now making me wonder about all the others
A genuine question though - can top level dressage be trained kindly? Or are they only able to achieve that level of movement by non too kind methods?
Does anyone know of any YouTube channels that show kinder trainers? I'm genuinely interested in watching how/if those movements can be achieved without force/cruelty

I honestly don't think you can now compete at the top level and be truly horse centered. Anja Beran is lovely to watch, I share a LOT of wonderful trainers, especially rehabber types, on my FB https://www.facebook.com/stephbloomspecialistsaddlefitter. Off the top of my head they would include
Annie Dillon Horsemanship
Lockie Phillips Emotional Horsemanship
Mills Consilient Horsemanship
Encompass Equine Solutions
Sonia Weber Reitkunst
Various Legerete trainers all over the world including Kate Sandel, Whitesands Equestrian/Catherine Marshall and others in the UK trained with the Phillipe Karl organisation.

There are loads of them, on social media there tend to be more in North America.

I'm one of those that are absolutely not surprised or shocked at what's happened. Modern training holds the front up and in, in various ways, and aiding has to be bigger, stronger...it was only a matter of time before this happened, and being a "kindly" public face is nothing to do with what is clearly evidenced in the ring. Even the riders and tests that the mild critics ooh and ahh over, there are many of us that can still point to compromised movement patterns.

 

[little_critter]

I've seen Anja Beren ride and train; she is IMO one of an unfortunately vanishingly rare coterie of truly ethical, educated, first-principles dressage trainers.

Her riding is beautiful and soft. I’d love to have a fraction of the skill and talent she has in her little finger.

 

[tda]

I think part of why this has troubled me so much is that I feel guilty, grubby and ashamed, as if we have been found out. By that I mean to say that whilst I know I have never behaved as CDJ in that video, and that most of the horse owners/riders/trainers I know and have heard of hopefully haven't either, I feel that deep down we did know this sort of thing happens in "our" sport and have done for a long time. Now I somehow feel ashamed to be associated with the sport, even though these methods are not used by the majority, because I DID know that these things happen in the horse world to some degree. Now the non-horse world knows it too.

Having said that, I feel glad that this has made me and many friends question the ethics of what we do and have done with horses and I do think it will have a positive impact overall.

This is exactly how I am feeling HollyWoozle, grubby by association, and I don't even do dressage
When I started having lessons for showing /WHP years ago, the first thing was crank that noseband tight , shorten reins, get hold and keep hold. Sorry not for me, and I rarely have a noseband on at all nowadays, and am now a fluffy pony patter

 

[teddy_]

I've seen Anja Beren ride and train; she is IMO one of an unfortunately vanishingly rare coterie of truly ethical, educated, first-principles dressage trainers.

ETA: she also wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in hell of being competitive, which of course is neither her ambition nor relevant.

I have just found a book by Anja, with commentary from Heuschmann (who's books I found invaluable) - shame the only copy on Amazon is £242 .

 

[Miss_Millie]

I just wanted to say that this is an excellent discussion and has restored my faith in humanity and the horse world a smidgen. Knowing that there are many people who have zero tolerance for abuse and who are brave enough to voice somewhat unpopular opinions on the systemic corruption in horse sports has given me a bit of hope. I've seen a lot of tosh on FB in the last 72 hours, a lot of pandering and toxic positivity nonsense. If people want the sport to survive, they need to face the facts, burn it to the ground and start again.

 

[humblepie]

There are good professionals. I had my horse in professional yard. Proper riding. No gadgets. No short cuts. Lots of hacking and turn out. Just lots of hard work care and thought. I could visit any time and no warning needed so was there enough if any issues would have seen something at some point. Would happily have a horse there again if could afford it .

 

[greasedweasel]

Firma la petición

Support Charlotte Dujardin's Contributions to Dressage

www.change.org

Really???!!!

 

[JenJ]

Firma la petición

Support Charlotte Dujardin's Contributions to Dressage

www.change.org

Really???!!!

1 signature so far.

 

[Flame_]

This has been playing on my mind today. The whipping is a terrible look and obviously an unhappy experience for the horse but as someone recently struggling with work pressures, what really gets to me is the relentless "more...more...more..." of it. The horse is operating, it isn't resisting except to dish out the occasional kick out protest at the incessant whipping, it looks like it's trying to be a good dressage horse, how immensely psychologically stressful it must be for it to endure such a clear, intense and prolonged message from the trainer, "not enough, more, do better, more, do better...." So, putting to one side the whipping, which I'm absolutely not condoning but which won't have done any physical damage, are less "in your face" methods of heaping pressure onto horses to reach ultimate standards much better or is the psychological harm just the same? They're both abuse when you really think about it.

The Mark Todd thing was unpleasant but at least it had an end game - pressure horse to jump off bank, horse jumps off bank and learns jumping off bank isn't the end of the world and is an end to it's woes - I can't see what this horse could have done to satisfy her, it really was an exercise in training a horse to endure relentless pressure. Horrible.

 

[Maxine67]

Agree with your Mum.



I honestly don't think you can now compete at the top level and be truly horse centered. Anja Beran is lovely to watch, I share a LOT of wonderful trainers, especially rehabber types, on my FB https://www.facebook.com/stephbloomspecialistsaddlefitter. Off the top of my head they would include
Annie Dillon Horsemanship
Lockie Phillips Emotional Horsemanship
Mills Consilient Horsemanship
Encompass Equine Solutions
Sonia Weber Reitkunst
Various Legerete trainers all over the world including Kate Sandel, Whitesands Equestrian/Catherine Marshall and others in the UK trained with the Phillipe Karl organisation.

There are loads of them, on social media there tend to be more in North America.

I'm one of those that are absolutely not surprised or shocked at what's happened. Modern training holds the front up and in, in various ways, and aiding has to be bigger, stronger...it was only a matter of time before this happened, and being a "kindly" public face is nothing to do with what is clearly evidenced in the ring. Even the riders and tests that the mild critics ooh and ahh over, there are many of us that can still point to compromised movement patterns.

This is great thank you