CDJ withdrawn from paris

ester said:
no you weren't you just said he was a regular visitor, that's all the information you gave to respond to and that's what I responded to. 🤷‍♀️
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There is honestly no need to take it so personally Ester, you certainly weren’t the only one to say it and since I hadn’t particularly noticed your reply my comment was not aimed at you 🤷‍♀️
 
sbloom said:
100% agree, shame the equestrian world hasn't been policing it. Might not have come to this. Emperor's new clothes but anyone who points them out is ignored at best.
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PapaverFollis said:
Lower age limits for horses through the levels might be a start. No Grand Prix before..... X years. Make it a big number to encourage keeping horses sound and taking good time. Judges looking for the actual Thing instead of being fooled by the appearance of the Thing.

Burn it all down and start again with different criteria?

No nosebands allowed. No bridles. 😆 I know, but genuinely. Do it in a headcoller and bareback. Breed horses of quality temperament and quiet movement with whom that would be fine. Maybe not the bareback but no stirrups perhaps? Strip it back as you go up levels rather than add on the pressure. People would just figure out ways to cheat/shortcut to the appearance of liberty and harmony still. I'm just random making silly suggestions.

I know. I don't care. I've lost faith. Rip it all up and try again please.

I honestly don't know if ethical horsemanship and competition are not just antithetical.
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I like your thinking! I think we should indeed demonstrate skill and a harmonious partnership by stripping back as you go up the levels, have minimum age requirements for higher level work and for some trophies also provide unedited footage of training, though that could easily be abused... Single bridles, no nosebands, no spurs, Unworkable possibly, unpopular, almost definitely!

It's really hard to re-imagine dressage but it's probably what is needed.
 
Piaffe, passage and pirouette are only weird and unnatural when performed by hypermobile, shoulder-moving but actually stuck on the forehand warmbloods who wouldn't know what collection was if it smacked them on the arse with a lunge whip. And by "performed by" I mean "bullied out of by strong riders using forceful methods".
 
So, is there a dummies guide to dressage, I.e why such movements evolved and why they are included.

I always feel that it would be nice to see dressage horses ridden in snaffle(other bits are available ) without a noseband, without spurs etc. The answer always seems to be you need all that stuff to fine tune the movements
 
Piaffe and passage aren't unnatural

Think about stallions displaying to each other, new horses introduced to a herd. Pirouettes are easy to see too, watch any group playing and they happen a lot. Or something running at a fence and changing its mind cos its buddy is being taken in for a groom. Or any horse spinning from a feed bowl to chase another way etc
 
PapaverFollis said:
Piaffe, passage and pirouette are only weird and unnatural when performed by hypermobile, shoulder-moving but actually stuck on the forehand warmbloods who wouldn't know what collection was if it smacked them on the arse with a lunge whip. And by "performer by" I mean "bullied out of by strong riders using forceful methods".
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Yes, horses do all these, and levade, capriole etc naturally, if not often. I do wonder if the requirement for repetition after repetition in competition should be scrapped and perhaps other things worked in for the marks. I would also like to see some element of in hand work - sort of in a classical way, at the higher levels but that might be daft.

I'd quite like to see competitors enter the arena on foot, and get on board independently (with a block) and do more work on a long rein. I know beggar all about it really but some of those things or similar might reveal strengths and weaknesses in interesting ways.
 
palo1 said:
horses do all these, and levade, capriole
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My last tb was very good at capriole albeit unasked for. It's surprisingly easy to sit.

I was watching a horse in the field the other day passaging when showing off.

There were some comparison videos a while back on modern piaffe, passage and a more 'classical' execution. It made interesting viewing.
 
Yes, horses do them all naturally. But they typically don’t do it on a surface with a rider and tack. Which I appreciate is true for everything we ask of them, but they are advanced moves for a reason.

Perhaps it’s more the current over exaggeration in those movements that needs to be curtailed then, because they certainly don’t look natural atm.
 
I don't even think the judge changes need to be that radical. Just stick to the scoring and rule criteria (as already laid out) and you will remove most of these issues.

Look at what constitutes a 5 or below for a piaffe and you will see most top name riders perform a piaffe like this but are scored 8s and 9s! Score them as the rule book says and you will soon sort it out.
 
tda said:
So, is there a dummies guide to dressage, I.e why such movements evolved and why they are included.

I always feel that it would be nice to see dressage horses ridden in snaffle(other bits are available ) without a noseband, without spurs etc. The answer always seems to be you need all that stuff to fine tune the movements
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These movements are regularly performed by “trick” riders with no tack using a breed that can do it. The problem for the modern dressage squad is that the breed of horses they are using cannot do these movements without tack. Could you imagine anyone trying to ride everdale barebake with no bridle 😬
 
U.N.Owen said:
I don't even think the judge changes need to be that radical. Just stick to the scoring and rule criteria (as already laid out) and you will remove most of these issues.

Look at what constitutes a 5 or below for a piaffe and you will see most top name riders perform a piaffe like this but are scored 8s and 9s! Score them as the rule book says and you will soon sort it out.
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I wonder what score today's judges would give reiner klimkes olympic test?
 
ester said:
Pondering also the things that judges can't see by virtue of their distance from the horse, the blue tongues of late have been less obvious than the patrick kittel debacle, can we somehow enable judges/a different person to be able to view these things that get identified afterwards at top level and deductions accordingly? tongues added to post test checks?
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You have tack inspection before they go in, it would only mean a tick sheet and inspection when they go out, any areas of concern a photo, all done at the side of the collecting ring, with the sheet assesed by the judge before the final marks go up. Anything of concern, points deducted. If it affects placings they will stop it.
 
honetpot said:
You have tack inspection before they go in, it would only mean a tick sheet and inspection when they go out, any areas of concern a photo, all done at the side of the collecting ring, with the sheet assesed by the judge before the final marks go up. Anything of concern, points deducted. If it affects placings they will stop it.
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I thought they only checked on the way out for safety reasons?
 
Our trotter rescue cobby thing learned turn on the quarters recently now practices pirouettes whilst cantering instead of taking the long optional cantering a loop when he wants go the other other way, the fei are a hopeless lost cause, personally I wish governments and the law would get involved horses have suffered so much and these recent revelations need to become a cause for some sort of social reform, ie this is not acceptable within a civilized society in this day and age, the now regular scandals being exposed, ultimately the abusers will lose respect, be exposed as frauds, but how many more horses have to suffer, also I think riding a horse to warmup should be generally30 to 45 minutes then show the horse engaged for the duration of the test, that is long enough for a. competition or schooling session plus cooling down
 
I suppose yeah, if there's something in the way preventing the forward movement. Ok, I'm just being stupid. Not for the first time today. 🤣
 
JenJ said:
Yeah, I get that they would passage for fun (and showing off!!! 🤣) , but the idea of them choosing to move without actually travelling forward seems odd.
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I think we have become used to seeing lots and lots of piaffe strides, naturally my horses will just do a few when playing and it is quite hard work for them. It does look a bit different to the dressage version...but yes, lowering the croup to take weight behind and moving on the spot/in a very collected way. Often with extra expression lol 😂
 
Whilst seeing horses forced into a frame, wide eyed and frothing at the mouth is seen as normal, I’m not sure that changes to rules and judging will do much. I think there is so much wrong with elite dressage that you’d almost need to turn it into something completely different to put it right.

If it was up to me I would remove the dancing movements; I don’t personally want to see any animals made to dance.

I would reward harmony, relaxation, connection between horse and rider and accuracy. Deductions for tension and anxiety. Elimination for blue tongues and horses being injured by tack or equipment. No double bridles, no tight nose bands.

I would want to see true horsemanship and a genuine partnership between horse and rider.
 
Upthecreek said:
Whilst seeing horses forced into a frame, wide eyed and frothing at the mouth is seen as normal, I’m not sure that changes to rules and judging will do much. I think there is so much wrong with elite dressage that you’d almost need to turn it into something completely different to put it right.

If it was up to me I would remove the dancing movements; I don’t personally want to see any animals made to dance.

I would reward harmony, relaxation, connection between horse and rider and accuracy. Deductions for tension and anxiety. Elimination for blue tongues and horses being injured by tack or equipment. No double bridles, no tight nose bands.

I would want to see true horsemanship and a genuine partnership between horse and rider.
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Said what I meant to say much better than I did!
 
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