CDJ withdrawn from paris

[Wizpop]

Piaffe and passage aren't unnatural

Think about stallions displaying to each other, new horses introduced to a herd. Pirouettes are easy to see too, watch any group playing and they happen a lot. Or something running at a fence and changing its mind cos its buddy is being taken in for a groom. Or any horse spinning from a feed bowl to chase another way etc

Yes, they are natural to the horse. But they are not drilled repeatedly to ‘perfection’ for competition/ hence he need for hock injections etc:

 

[criso]

They should stop wasting them in the field then!

Actually the one thing my horses don't do naturally is extended trot, they might passage or do a a big mediumish trot when showing off or reacting to something but if they want to go faster they canter/gallop. Clearly saving them.

Seem to have infinite supply of pirouettes though

 

[PoppyAnderson]

The owner of MSJ stud has also posted in support of CDJ.

Emma Blundell? Where? I don't see anything that looks like a supportive message. There's a slightly cryptic post on Insta but she denies that it's connected to CDJ.

 

[anguscat]

Lower age limits for horses through the levels might be a start. No Grand Prix before..... X years. Make it a big number to encourage keeping horses sound and taking good time. Judges looking for the actual Thing instead of being fooled by the appearance of the Thing.

Burn it all down and start again with different criteria?

No nosebands allowed. No bridles. I know, but genuinely. Do it in a headcoller and bareback. Breed horses of quality temperament and quiet movement with whom that would be fine. Maybe not the bareback but no stirrups perhaps? Strip it back as you go up levels rather than add on the pressure. People would just figure out ways to cheat/shortcut to the appearance of liberty and harmony still. I'm just random making silly suggestions.

I know. I don't care. I've lost faith. Rip it all up and try again please.

I honestly don't know if ethical horsemanship and competition are not just antithetical.

Applying the handbrake to progress rate via age a good idea

 

[criso]

Just a thought, I know it's a very different discipline to modern dressage but do the horses in the Spanish Riding School suffer from the same physical issues and how many years/to what age are they able to perform

 

[FieldOrnaments]

Emma Blundell? Where? I don't see anything that looks like a supportive message. There's a slightly cryptic post on Insta but she denies that it's connected to CDJ.

Not sure how the text post on Instagram posted 1 day ago could be taken as anything other than support?

It's not outright condemnation of the behaviour anyhow - which is what the horses need.

 

[BBP]

Just a thought, I know it's a very different discipline to modern dressage but do the horses in the Spanish Riding School suffer from the same physical issues and how many years/to what age are they able to perform

I can’t answer that question, but I did see extremely sharp and frequent use of the whip when I watched them train. Enough to totally take the shine off the experience.

 

[tristars]

I never mentioned tight circles? It seems people are going a bit cracked about all this, humans really can't cope , not you Missmillie, but Michael peace and others

 

[PoppyAnderson]

Not sure how the text post on Instagram posted 1 day ago could be taken as anything other than support?

It's not outright condemnation of the behaviour anyhow - which is what the horses need.

She says it's nothing to do with CDJ. Even if it is though (she says it's not), she could be referring to the complainant. So, yes, it could be interpreted in more than one way. Given that she severed their relationship several years ago, I doubt she's supportive of Charlotte in any case.

 

[FieldOrnaments]

She says it's nothing to do with CDJ. Even if it is though (she says it's not), she could be referring to the complainant. So, yes, it could be interpreted in more than one way. Given that she severed their relationship several years ago, I doubt she's supportive of Charlotte in any case.

ohh I didn't know she'd cut ties - do you know why?

I am still disappointed she hasn't outright condemned it as I've always admired her/MSJ for their championing of mares

 

[PoppyAnderson]

ohh I didn't know she'd cut ties - do you know why?

I am still disappointed she hasn't outright condemned it as I've always admired her/MSJ for their championing of mares

No but Freestyle went to someone else and all sponsored or jointly owned horses were returned and/or sold.

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

Karl Greenwood seeming to have gone off at the deep end with peak Caroline Flack-ing and even a bit of Godwin's Law in there!

ETA - when I mention CF, I am not minimising her situation but the way what happened to her gets weaponised to shut people up about difficult topics or to dodge valid criticism in the name of being kind. I do not support personal attacks on CDJ nor threats of any kind.

ETA2 - I also think he's stretching the use of 'as a psychologist...'

 

[Bellaboo18]

Karl Greenwood seeming to have gone off at the deep end with peak Caroline Flack-ing and even a bit of Godwin's Law in there!

ETA - when I mention CF, I am not minimising her situation but the way what happened to her gets weaponised to shut people up about difficult topics or to dodge valid criticism in the name of being kind. I do not support personal attacks on CDJ nor threats of any kind.

Just looked him up He's made it quite clear where he stands!
Completely agree re CF.

 

[FieldOrnaments]

holy mother of false equivalences ......blimey

 

[Bellaboo18]

I haven't felt the need to comment so far on this thread because lots of other people have already reflected my views but we now seem to be at the stage of "what can we do about it?" One thought occurs to me - there are lots of very knowledgeable spectators at dressage events so how about some direct action? Nothing to upset the horses of course but placards and posters pointing out the things we think are wrong with the way dressage is going and the scoring system the judges use.

Probably a mad idea.

I don't think it's a mad idea at all. Peaceful protesting. I'd also like to see a # and/or Facebook community standing up against this kind of thing.

I've recently joined the 'Equestrians, It's time to act's group but am already disappointed with it!

 

[Clover Girl]

The timing is everything.

The GB poster girl for dressage as literal front page news on at least four UK newspapers, two days before the Paris Olympics starts, where as I’ve already mentioned, she had a decent chance of becoming the most decorated female GB Olympian.

Coincidence? Make your own mind up on that…

ETS - home page content on the NYT too, and no doubt others. The equestrian events will now be under even more scrutiny. Let’s hope there are no blood sightings, blue tongues, or nasty falls.

Who cares if it’s a conspiracy to knock out the brits, if she hadn’t of behaved so badly towards that horse no one would have anything to use against her. Bitter pill to swallow but that’s life

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

I don't think it's a mad idea at all. Peaceful protesting. I'd also like to see a # and/or Facebook community standing up against this kind of thing.

I've recently joined the 'Equestrians, It's time to act's group but am already disappointed with it!

I've been in the group a little while but not active and have been surprised/disappointed that when it's come to this incident it has just seems to have fallen completely flat.

 

[teapot]

Who cares if it’s a conspiracy to knock out the brits, if she hadn’t of behaved so badly towards that horse no one would have anything to use against her. Bitter pill to swallow but that’s life

Personal vendettas are not in the interest of the sport. If it was about the horse, it would have come out a long time ago, no?

Still don't agree with the video content or CDJ's actions, but the headlines of 'I did it for the sport' don't sit quite right with me three days before an Olympic Games.

 

[Equi]

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[HollyWoozle]

I find myself questioning everything now. I just opened Instagram to see the attached… it’s just a moment in time but… oh.

To be clear I have no issue with Laura’s horsemanship (as far as I know) and I’ve not watched the test. I also prefer eventing dressage to pure dressage for its simplicity. I am not criticising Laura, the fact it’s her is irrelevant, this is just one example… I find myself questioning if these horses really look like happy athletes.

 

[honetpot]

I can't think of any instance where I've seen a horse piaffe naturally? Why would they do this?

I have had it once happen to me spontaniously, piafe and passage are an elevated trot, when you think of the phrase, on its toes, its just that contained energy. I was out hacking on a snow cover winters day, on a road on the side of the moor. Every where was dazzling white, and the horse I think was excited, but a bit WTF, and he wanted to go but the last thing I wanted to do was let him go on a slippery road, and we bounced up the road no faster than a walk in trot, for about half a mile Sometimes a horse will bounce on the spot in anticipation and I have certainly seen this in the field, they often do it before the rear, if your riding paddling is a warning.

 

[Bellaboo18]

I find myself questioning everything now. I just opened Instagram to see the attached… it’s just a moment in time but… oh.

To be clear I have no issue with Laura’s horsemanship (as far as I know) and I’ve not watched the test. I also prefer eventing dressage to pure dressage for its simplicity. I am not criticising Laura or her test but this is just one example… I find myself questioning if these horses really look like happy athletes. View attachment 143624

When I first saw the post on Facebook I thought couldn't they find a better picture?! It is a moment in time but it makes me think whoever is picking those pictures doesn't get what an unhappy horse looks like. They wouldn't post a picture of Laura looking like she was gurning.

 

[Upthecreek]

Personal vendettas are not in the interest of the sport. If it was about the horse, it would have come out a long time ago, no?

Still don't agree with the video content or CDJ's actions, but the headlines of 'I did it for the sport' don't sit quite right with me three days before an Olympic Games.

I think the reason for the timing of this is pretty obvious, but also irrelevant really. As is this person’s motivation for choosing to speak out at all after so long. It’s most definitely not motivated by concern for the welfare of this particular horse. But it’s got people thinking and talking about the issue and it needed to be someone this high profile at this point in time to achieve that.

 

[honetpot]

I think the pool of potential stewards might significantly shrink.

Most of the stewards I have worked with over the years at the bigger shows are actually pretty good at controlling at situation, its pretty much their summer job, all they need is the back up, I have a friend who is a FEI SJ steward and she would certainly have something to say. In showing the steward is in charge of ring saftey, the judge should only judge what is in front of them. So if you deligate the responsibilty, and train them properly, they are very capable. Over the summer they see the same faces, but have a detached interest IME.

 

[Caol Ila]

I've been on holiday this week, hence brief posts. And I haven't talked to my real life horsey friends and acquaintances about it until today. They are all pretty horrified. No excuses made. That said, CDJ is in a system where extravagance is rewarded, above harmony and even correct movements. And the insane amounts of money involved probably makes people loopy. She has free will, of course, and could have chosen to not batter a horse with a lunge whip. If only she'd done that. I hope all professional riders/trainers (well, all riders/trainers) who've got these skeletons in their closets are bricking it. Still, I like convincing myself that Valegro was a product of kinder methods. However, since CDJ has spent so long at the top of the dressage pile and has admitted that she's incredibly competitive, maybe she's turned towards more dodgy sh1t because it gets the results judges (and owners, and sponsors) want. 2012 was a long time ago. In any case, not ideal if you have built your entire brand on being the warmer, fluffier dressage trainer.

I think she's a symptom of the deeper, systemic problems we've been talking about on this thread. I'd like to see the FEI and judging back away from throwing the highest scores at the most extravagant, but brittle and tense movers and reward horses and riders who truly show harmony and relaxation and can do a correct bloody piaffe. Tension creates more extravagance. We all (riders) know this at some level. My old horse had a spectacular trot when we hacked past herds of cows. Could I get anything resembling that when she was relaxed and happy in the dressage arena? The f*ck I could. But man, it was a 'good' trot. It just came with the feeling of her having a meltdown and being on the edge of doing something much more unpleasant than an elevated trot down the road. My current Iberian does piaffe/passage pretty easily when she spooks at something, and I tell her that I'd really prefer it if she did not leave town at speed. Piaffe/passage is an acceptable answer. I am sure someone (lol....not me) could teach her those movements on command, but at this moment, they come out of tension.

All the whip cracking whilst holding the front end with a double bridle creates the sort of fear my old horse had about cows. She pranced down the road because I was stopping her from tanking off at a gallop. The tension leads to more 'brilliance.' Stop throwing 80s at the horses flinging their legs the highest, then we're onto some serious reform. Piaffe, passage, piris, tempis, and all that are not the problem (IMHO). The problem is breeding huuuuge movers actually not well designed for that degree of collection, then feeling like you're in a movement arms race, and you have to do whatever it takes to make your hypermobile warmblood move even bigger than the next guy's hypermobile warmblood.

 

[criso]

I can’t answer that question, but I did see extremely sharp and frequent use of the whip when I watched them train. Enough to totally take the shine off the experience.

Oh no doubt but in terms of a large number of horses carrying out certain movements over a long period of time and the effect on soundness and longevity, it would be interesting to know.

And there's maybe not the same pressure to achieve results quickly for financial reasons and get bigger and better each time, just doing the same.

 

[anguscat]

Your experiences are encouraging.

 

[I'm Dun]

Michael Peace - Think Equus

The pseudo virtue from wannabe trainers over the CDJ expose is unbearable. Despicable, blatant self promotion scavenging for clicks, likes and money. You are like hyenas surrounding an injured...

www.facebook.com

Its not the first dubious thing I've seen from him, but what an absolute idot. Why cant these people see that they are making this situation worse?! Condem what she did, condem the system that means this sort of training works and created the person she became. Dont sit there bitching about people doing this, because at best it distracts from it and at worst it confirms the opinion that people have, that we all train our horses like this.

 

[I'm Dun]

I've been on holiday this week, hence brief posts. And I haven't talked to my real life horsey friends and acquaintances about it until today. They are all pretty horrified. No excuses made. That said, CDJ is in a system where extravagance is rewarded, above harmony and even correct movements. And the insane amounts of money involved probably makes people loopy. She has free will, of course, and could have chosen to not batter a horse with a lunge whip. If only she'd done that. I hope all professional riders/trainers (well, all riders/trainers) who've got these skeletons in their closets are bricking it. Still, I like convincing myself that Valegro was a product of kinder methods. However, since CDJ has spent so long at the top of the dressage pile and has admitted that she's incredibly competitive, maybe she's turned towards more dodgy sh1t because it gets the results judges (and owners, and sponsors) want. 2012 was a long time ago. In any case, not ideal if you have built your entire brand on being the warmer, fluffier dressage trainer.

I think she's a symptom of the deeper, systemic problems we've been talking about on this thread. I'd like to see the FEI and judging back away from throwing the highest scores at the most extravagant, but brittle and tense movers and reward horses and riders who truly show harmony and relaxation and can do a correct bloody piaffe. Tension creates more extravagance. We all (riders) know this at some level. My old horse had a spectacular trot when we hacked past herds of cows. Could I get anything resembling that when she was relaxed and happy in the dressage arena? The f*ck I could. But man, it was a 'good' trot. It just came with the feeling of her having a meltdown and being on the edge of doing something much more unpleasant than an elevated trot down the road. My current Iberian does piaffe/passage pretty easily when she spooks at something, and I tell her that I'd really prefer it if she did not leave town at speed. Piaffe/passage is an acceptable answer. I am sure someone (lol....not me) could teach her those movements on command, but at this moment, they come out of tension.

All the whip cracking whilst holding the front end with a double bridle creates the sort of fear my old horse had about cows. She pranced down the road because I was stopping her from tanking off at a gallop. The tension leads to more 'brilliance.' Stop throwing 80s at the horses flinging their legs the highest, then we're onto some serious reform. Piaffe, passage, piris, tempis, and all that are not the problem (IMHO). The problem is breeding huuuuge movers actually not well designed for that degree of collection, then feeling like you're in a movement arms race, and you have to do whatever it takes to make your hypermobile warmblood move even bigger than the next guy's hypermobile warmblood.

It will never happen, but I'd love to see what happened if we did the equivalent of the mustang challenge with our top dressage riders. Let them all pick an unbroken British native pony. Exmoor/fell/highland/welsh etc and then give them x amount of time to do a novice test, then a medium test etc. It would make for incredibly interesting viewing, promote our native breeds and showcase the talent of the rider for training horses, which is what dressage is supposed to show, not whose warmblood can fling its legs the most.

 

[Jenko109]

It will never happen, but I'd love to see what happened if we did the equivalent of the mustang challenge with our top dressage riders. Let them all pick an unbroken British native pony. Exmoor/fell/highland/welsh etc and then give them x amount of time to do a novice test, then a medium test etc. It would make for incredibly interesting viewing, promote our native breeds and showcase the talent of the rider for training horses, which is what dressage is supposed to show, not whose warmblood can fling its legs the most.

I like the concept but not with time limits.

Just watching their journey would be great though.