CDJ withdrawn from paris

[Trouper]

I haven't felt the need to comment so far on this thread because lots of other people have already reflected my views but we now seem to be at the stage of "what can we do about it?" One thought occurs to me - there are lots of very knowledgeable spectators at dressage events so how about some direct action? Nothing to upset the horses of course but placards and posters pointing out the things we think are wrong with the way dressage is going and the scoring system the judges use.

Probably a mad idea.

 

[JenJ]

I think we have become used to seeing lots and lots of piaffe strides, naturally my horses will just do a few when playing and it is quite hard work for them. It does look a bit different to the dressage version...but yes, lowering the croup to take weight behind and moving on the spot/in a very collected way. Often with extra expression lol

I think when I first said it, I was visualising the movement exactly matching a ridden piaffe in an arena under test conditions, but yes, of course it will look different when done naturally. In fact many of the livery horses at the yard do something like it at feed time so, yeah, me having a stupid moment

 

[NinjaPony]

For me one of the big issues is the type of horse we now use at the top level. Iberian horses are built to collect and sit, they can transfer their weight easily if trained properly and are talented at the piaffe etc. but now we’ve got huge strong warmbloods who are built to extend and we want bigger and bigger paces. Dressage wants to have its cake and eat it and at some point we need to decide what the priority is. Breeding extremely flashy horses and forcing them to collect is clearly damaging.

 

[Equi]

I haven't felt the need to comment so far on this thread because lots of other people have already reflected my views but we now seem to be at the stage of "what can we do about it?" One thought occurs to me - there are lots of very knowledgeable spectators at dressage events so how about some direct action? Nothing to upset the horses of course but placards and posters pointing out the things we think are wrong with the way dressage is going and the scoring system the judges use.

Probably a mad idea.

This could be seen as disruptive and likely get people removed, cause arguments and eventually get out of hand. The people with good intentions would be seen as the villains.

 

[Miss_Millie]

What has stuck out to me the past few days is how much people show their biases when it's a sport they participate in and a rider from/representing their country. All of my dressage-based acquaintances (who are active posters on FB) have either remained silent or liked/shared posts in support of Charlotte, deflecting with regards to the timing of the video coming out, the whistleblower etc. Nothing about the suffering of the horse involved or the cruelty. The irony is that they're the ones who have the most to lose, they should be calling it out louder than anyone.

I truly question whether modern-day dressage is any better than animals performing in a circus. People like to say that dressage is natural, but what isn't natural is pounding horses through the same routine like a drill-sergeant until they break. I can only assume that before big events like the olympics, these movements are schooled again and again and again.

I'm just going to say it, all of the horses I've known with intermittent lameness issues have been dressage trained...make of that what you will.

 

[ester]

I've definitely heard Carl more than once say that a horse only has X number of extended trots in a lifetime, so don't overtrain them (presume he thinks the same applies to piaffe etc!)

 

[equinerebel]

Again, the movements may be natural but preforming them in the way GP horses are is not. That’s what I meant.

 

[tristars]

But the correctly trained horse can do lots of movements with ease at no cost to its soundness,! That's the whole point!

 

[Chianti]

I thought it was utterly bizarre and unintelligible and I may have just unfollowed him.

Can you please post the link. I couldn't find it.

 

[Rowreach]

Can you please post the link. I couldn't find it.

Michael Peace - Think Equus

The pseudo virtue from wannabe trainers over the CDJ expose is unbearable. Despicable, blatant self promotion scavenging for clicks, likes and money. You are like hyenas surrounding an injured...

www.facebook.com

 

[Miss_Millie]

But the correctly trained horse can do lots of movements with ease at no cost to its soundness,! That's the whole point!

But maybe constantly training on a tight circle is not conducive to soundness? Let alone the way they're ridden/tack used etc.

 

[Miss_Millie]

Michael Peace - Think Equus

The pseudo virtue from wannabe trainers over the CDJ expose is unbearable. Despicable, blatant self promotion scavenging for clicks, likes and money. You are like hyenas surrounding an injured...

www.facebook.com

Well that's grim reading.

Edited to add: haven't even heard of him but if he's a trainer/behaviourist I wouldn't touch him with a bargepole after reading that. Some masks are certainly slipping.

 

[JenJ]

I've definitely heard Carl more than once say that a horse only has X number of extended trots in a lifetime, so don't overtrain them (presume he thinks the same applies to piaffe etc!)

They should stop wasting them in the field then!

 

[Chianti]

Michael Peace - Think Equus

The pseudo virtue from wannabe trainers over the CDJ expose is unbearable. Despicable, blatant self promotion scavenging for clicks, likes and money. You are like hyenas surrounding an injured...

www.facebook.com

Thanks. That's quite strange. Given his job I would have thought that he would be more worried about the horse than the trainer. He must spend a lot of time trying to get horses to unpick mentally the damage they've sustained through bad training.

 

[nutjob]

Carlos Parro has been given a yellow card for riding Safira in Rollkur, but only after Peta wrote directly to the FEI president. Presumably, otherwise they were going to sweep this under the rug as usual. How not at all surprising that no other riders or any officials reported this .

 

[teddy_]

Michael Peace - Think Equus

The pseudo virtue from wannabe trainers over the CDJ expose is unbearable. Despicable, blatant self promotion scavenging for clicks, likes and money. You are like hyenas surrounding an injured...

www.facebook.com

Crikey, that's pretty loaded!

 

[dixie]

Ok so playing devils advocate, do we think maybe Valego was trained like this? And he was supposedly perfection...

So I wonder whether the behind the scenes abuse can truly be stopped?

Surely not . I really hope not anyway.
I can’t see that this technique actually works?

 

[Tiddlypom]

Michael Peace - Think Equus

The pseudo virtue from wannabe trainers over the CDJ expose is unbearable. Despicable, blatant self promotion scavenging for clicks, likes and money. You are like hyenas surrounding an injured...

www.facebook.com

Crikey, the CDJ incident is really flushing them out, isn’t it . What an extraordinary outburst. Followed by lots of sycophantic comments from his equally deluded groupies.

I had Michael Peace down as one of the more sensible equine professionals. I was clearly wrong.

 

[equinerebel]

But the correctly trained horse can do lots of movements with ease at no cost to its soundness,! That's the whole point!

But many don’t, and breakdown early or are hit with whips to encourage more extravagant movement, so something has to change. That was just an after thought to my other suggestions.

But I’m also just a random person on the internet, so I very much doubt the FEI will read what I have to say

 

[PapaverFollis]

The high level movements should fall out of correct gymnastic training smoothly and easily.

Yes if they are trained like tricks (either with force or positive reinforcement) in their own right to be performed by horses that are not carefully physically conditioned to perform them under saddle then they are damaging.

That's the whole point. The correct gymnastic training to carry a rider with grace and ease is the Thing. Training the Grand Prix movements as if they are circus tricks is the Appearance of the Thing.

 

[Burnttoast]

But many don’t, and breakdown early

The number of horses that are *correctly* trained these days (and always probably, given the skill and patience required) is so vanishingly small that I don't think that statement can be tested really. Done badly or just in a mediocre way dressage isn't very good for horses, that much is certainly true.

 

[Janique]

It might not be relevant but here in Switzerand, they banned the whip in flat racing.

At first, all the jockeys, trainers and owner were angry, they thought that racing would stop.

Now after, 6 months, everyone is happy, the races are still the same but without hitting the horse.

The general public is happy too and some people are even coming back to watch.

Change is always scary and people think it was better before but we need to go forwards.

Now, Swizerland is thinking of banning 2 years old racing, i can't wait, that's the next step..

Just imagine banning the whip in flat racing in the UK ! People would go mad and then like here just getting used to it.

One can dream !

 

[SaddlePsych'D]

Crikey, the CDJ incident is really flushing them out, isn’t it . What an extraordinary outburst. Followed by lots of sycophantic comments from his equally deluded groupies.

I had Michael Peace down as one of the more sensible equine professionals. I was clearly wrong.

Same here, really disappointing to read that. If he is about horse welfare, why does the only thing he has to say not even acknowledge the horse?

 

[ester]

that's really interesting thanks for posting.

 

[Rowreach]

Crikey, the CDJ incident is really flushing them out, isn’t it . What an extraordinary outburst. Followed by lots of sycophantic comments from his equally deluded groupies.

I had Michael Peace down as one of the more sensible equine professionals. I was clearly wrong.

It was the vitriol behind the post that made me think ah, that’s the real person then …

 

[equinerebel]

The number of horses that are *correctly* trained these days (and always probably, given the skill and patience required) is so vanishingly small that I don't think that statement can be tested really. Done badly or just in a mediocre way dressage isn't very good for horses, that much is certainly true.

I agree. I don’t really know where we go from here or how to be truly ethical.

 

[FieldOrnaments]

The owner of MSJ stud has also posted in support of CDJ.

 

[Burnttoast]

I agree. I don’t really know where we go from here or how to be truly ethical.

Personally, I found it least conflicting simply to step away. I can't ride now for health reasons but I was happier about horses in general after I stopped.

 

[Jenko109]

Just imagine banning the whip in flat racing in the UK ! People would go mad and then like here just getting used to it.

It does seem very backward.

Saying that it is acceptable to hit a horse with a whip seven times in a race, is simply normalising hitting a horse. A horse who is often knackered.

I understand that race whips are cushioned and not the same as a standard riding crop, but I fail to believe that they do not still administer some degree of discomfort.

Can it ever be ethically correct to lay a whip on an animal to make him go faster while in pursuit of a win and the financial gain that goes with it?

 

[anguscat]

I think they need to sort out what happens at the scenes as a starting point, stewarding should be strong in warm ups with regards to how horses are ridden, and stewards should be given enough power to follow that through. If they can't rollkur a horse in the warm up then maybe they'll have to find an alternative way of getting what they want at home. For some reason it doesn't seem to matter that the warm up is being watched by the public (whereas you'd think it would make a difference) so the power needs to be somewhere.

As suggested prior judging needs a bit of a shift away from flash/brilliance/performance to a more harmonious picture.

I think the pool of potential stewards might significantly shrink.