Nonjumper
Well-Known Member
Because dressage itself isn't the problem, and abuse happens everywhere not just in elite sportsmens yards.
CDJ withdrawn from paris
- Thread starter Zoeypxo
- Start date
criso
Coming over here & taking your jobs since 1900
Actually my experience at grassroots isn't wholly positive. For the happy relaxed horses, there are also the ones pulled into an outline and booted along.
A lot more emphasis on horses being "on the bit" even at Intro level than horses going forward freely and rhythmically in the appropriate outline for the level they are competing at.
A lot more emphasis on horses being "on the bit" even at Intro level than horses going forward freely and rhythmically in the appropriate outline for the level they are competing at.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
There are really dismal sights and miserable horses at low level dressage competitions, I wouldn’t be advocating for them.
ETA The intro classes are some of the worst for seeing horses strangled by their riders. I was sceptical of them from the off - if you and your horse can’t manage a prelim then keep on with the training til you are ready. S0d being accessible, that is just a sop to the riders.
ETA The intro classes are some of the worst for seeing horses strangled by their riders. I was sceptical of them from the off - if you and your horse can’t manage a prelim then keep on with the training til you are ready. S0d being accessible, that is just a sop to the riders.
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splashgirl45
Lurcher lover
There’s no point banning dressage, it just needs to be improved, as I have said countless times, the judges need to mark down tension, mouth opening , constant BTV,hollow backs, irregularity of paces , movement in halt both at the beginning and end . That should stop the horses at the top from getting ridiculously high marks. Until the judging reflects correct, harmonious tests the riders will continue in the same way
SaddlePsych'D
Well-Known Member
Yup at unaff. I have seen some riders coming back each month and improving, people bringing out their young/inexperienced horses, riders coming back after falls etc. and it's been lovely to see. However also seen the same overweight riders, the same ones booting with spurs, and the lady who finished every test with the saddle halfway round the horse's side having booted it the whole way round. For that last one a judge did say something to the organiser and I know it's probably not my place as writer but I did add to this that I was finding it hard to see the same thing happening over and over (the judge wouldn't have known because a different judge each time but I had been writing for every event over multiple months).
SantaVera
Well-Known Member
True
Ceifer
Well-Known Member
Fundamentally if we are going to change dressage, the horse breeding standard has got to change and that is going to be difficult as it is big money for mega stables predominantly (although not exclusively) in Europe.
sbloom
Well-Known Member
I do think there's a particular problem with dressage, in that it's rooted in a tradition where the work benefits the horse. It's now a money-sodden competition fest which feels like it would be really darned hard to make ethical, especially at the top levels. However I think there are plenty of things that could be improved and might make top level stuff something I could live with, and trickle down to lower levels. It will reveal just how poor the overall training base is, not just in this country but all over the world. It's almost impossible to find trainers and instructors that I can recommend my customers to to help them continue the work we often start in saddle fittings, very very few avoid working the horse in compression, most use LDR and other ways of controlling the front end. There are a few shining lights out there but otherwise it's going to be a hard transition to make, IF the FEI get their act in order.
Changing dressage would also affect eventing (of course) and jumping to an extent, indirectly, but would make the case for changes in both those sports for the benefit of the horse too.
Changing dressage would also affect eventing (of course) and jumping to an extent, indirectly, but would make the case for changes in both those sports for the benefit of the horse too.
PoppyAnderson
Well-Known Member
This is Carl yesterday.
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I'm Dun
Well-Known Member
But why would they? What possible benefit is there? I've taught about a bazillion kids to ride and could control every pony by voice when doing it, but it was very obvious to anyone watching that the ponies were listening to me not the riders.
KC31
Active Member
I have to strongly disagree with this comment. My old boy has travelled the world, he is now living his fully deserved semi retirement with me hacking over the countryside. He bounces out the stable every day and is sound as anything, but has the most odd shaped hooves, (my farrier is amazing), and for this reason has to have remedial shoeing in front. Not due to soundness, the vet uses him as an example, but due to confirmation which he was born with. Didn't stop him passing any vetting and winning 6 figures. Maybe some would have tried to alter the shape of his feet, but then you could have then gone down the lameness path, we just shoe him according to what he needs. My other one is barefoot and i am very fortunate has amazing feet and confirmation.
WrongLeg
Well-Known Member
No chips, I am really grateful that Charlotte’s mum was around to help me when my mum couldn’t be there. When you have a parent that’s been ill, that’s something you don’t forget.Mel and my daughter actually almost collided when both were cutting each other up, despite being told not to do it.
Words were had....
WrongLeg, remove the pack of chips, till this came to light it's been rare to see/hear of any BSPS horrors.
As I said above, there were many doing that, still are.
I'm still disgusted and furious that CDJ has beaten a horse, just vile.
CDJ was notorious among producers/ spectators for ‘competitive’ tactics: a Tiger doesn’t change their stripes.
I had a pony that came from DT’s yard that was clearly traumatised by the stick and had a mouth like a rock. I suspect (but don’t know) that CDJ has seen horses being beaten since she was 10, and has been taught that is what you need to do to win, it is normal and justified by either winning/ producing a horse to sell.
If CDJ had evented rather than showed/ competed at dressage, she would have learnt more effective ways to teach a horse to pick their legs up, like,
- trotting & cantering over tall stubble/ scrub/ heather
This does not make the horse tense & hollow their back. They love it.
I suspect that Carl Hester’s eventing background has helped him problem solve like this.
Ignoring the ethics, from a practical POV the use of the whip as shown in the video isn’t working because the horse’s inside hind is not engaged. Until, the hind is engaged, and the horse relaxed & working over the back, the whip will never get the horse to lift up his legs.
I doubt CDJ schooled Carl’s horses like this because it’s dumb and they have an easy way of going.
I think the use of the whip is just a response to the pressure and unrealistic expectations of rich clients with unrealistic demands and not enough hard work: this is exactly why people beat-up ponies in showing…and so the cycle continues.
eahotson
Well-Known Member
I had a lot of pleasure with my little cob and my novice rider doing intro.No one tried to pull her into any sort of outline and she still won competitions.We all has FUN which is surely what it is about.Better to do an intro competently than try and do preliminary badly.
palo1
Well-Known Member
I'm feeling sadder today about equestrian sport than I probably ever have done: I've had no desire to watch any of the Olympic equestrian events, for the first time in my life, although I understand that the eventing stuff was ok, with only a few bits of dodgy horsemanship.
I have lost trust even in that really - none of it feels very trustworthy now. I'd love to go back to a moment where I believed that our top riders were truly inspirational and I do imagine that some of them really, really are. But the horses...I know it is just a moment in time as well but London 52's eyes after the dressage, Carl riding in remedial shoes, stories of over-tired horses? I know I have made stupid, unfair mistakes but I've never asked for that much from them, never had such pressure on my fragile friends and haven't ever had to worry about letting a team, or an owner, sponsor, my country down. I'm not normally influenced by single pictures either. I guess, like a great many other people, a lot of horse sport feels fraudulent to a degree. I hope that feeling doesn't last, but while it does...well, thanks for souring the dreams of the child still inside me!!
I hope somehow there will be a way forward.
I have lost trust even in that really - none of it feels very trustworthy now. I'd love to go back to a moment where I believed that our top riders were truly inspirational and I do imagine that some of them really, really are. But the horses...I know it is just a moment in time as well but London 52's eyes after the dressage, Carl riding in remedial shoes, stories of over-tired horses? I know I have made stupid, unfair mistakes but I've never asked for that much from them, never had such pressure on my fragile friends and haven't ever had to worry about letting a team, or an owner, sponsor, my country down. I'm not normally influenced by single pictures either. I guess, like a great many other people, a lot of horse sport feels fraudulent to a degree. I hope that feeling doesn't last, but while it does...well, thanks for souring the dreams of the child still inside me!!
I hope somehow there will be a way forward.
SEL
Well-Known Member
That's not my experience at all. My cob likes to run into canter and gets unbalanced in a 20*40 so he's getting life experience doing Intros whilst we keep working on cob canter at home
I have seen nervous young horses out for their first few tests and also some nervous riders out who have chosen not to canter. Nothing any better or any worse than at prelim.
splashgirl45
Lurcher lover
I think it’s wrong to judge london52 from one photograph. I watched his whole test and he was a happy athlete and really deserved the high marks he got. We mustn’t start tarring all with the same brush . What Charlotte did was shocking and I could only watch the video for a short while, it was clearly abuse of a horse and also not fair to the young rider. If you take a photo of any of our horses on here you could probably find one where the horse isn’t looking happy but that doesn’t mean they are all being beaten in their training
slimjim86
Well-Known Member
Londons eyes??
PoppyAnderson
Well-Known Member
There's a picture of London 52 with worried looking eyes and a very tight flash.
sbloom
Well-Known Member
I think so often the photo being selected for publishing is the problem, the fight is against the emperors new clothes where photo editors, even equestrian ones who should know better, don't. There's a photo of all 4 combos in the arena for familiarisation and Carl's horse is super compressed in front. I don't think he never trains like that, it's not a moment in time, equally it's hardly proof of anything. Neither is the photo of Laura, but it does illustrate the wider problem. And yes, they do all show noseband tightness and that is an issue across the board.
Rowreach
Adjusting my sails
When they combine an ill fitting noseband (and sorry, kinetons do not "slip", and they are not a nice piece of equipment at all) with nasal strips, I do tend to go 
Patterdale
Well-Known Member
eahotson
Well-Known Member
SmileOr reserve them for those of us with gaited breeds
HollyWoozle
Well-Known Member
This is how I am feeling at this time too.
palo1
Well-Known Member
Yes, I know that and ordinarily would be far less bothered by a moment in time. It's just now, this fall out from CDJ. But it's still not something I have felt particularly before. Logically, and knowing some higher level equestrian competitors, I know not all are tarred with the same brush and they do work extraordinarily hard for their horse's health and wellbeing. I dunno, I just feel differently about it now I suppose.
Bellaboo18
Well-Known Member
Whereas I've spent the day watching the jumping (in Paris) and what stands out to me is how happy and relaxed these horses are in a bonkers environment/atmosphere. It makes me think we're doing something right. A flight animal standing, ears pricked taking it all in. It gives me some hope.
palo1
Well-Known Member
I just wanted to add, for a bit of balance, that it isn't just equestrianism that feels a bit grubby at these games and I don't think equestrian sport should be banned. I just wish it would change, and be better, possibly easier for the horses. But definitely get rid of all those blooming flash nosebands!!
PapaverFollis
Well-Known Member
"We got team Gold in the eventing!"
Hoo-bloody-rah.
I didn't even feel a tiny modicum of happiness at the news. Normally I'd be dead chuffed.
Amazing the change the video of CDJ has wrought in me. It's bizarre. I have been been thinking about horses or horse sports that much for two years, just been keeping mine quietly and happily (basically half feral after I lost my nerve or reached the end of my skill set or something.) But then this happens and it's like a switch flipped. I'm thinking about horse sports again but it's very negative. But also feeling a swell of passion for kind, classical training again...
I just wish I had the skills or had someone to actually teach me.
Not to me-rail (I know I do that)... that's just my thoughts. 64rr me.....fed.rah.64r me.....fed.rah.
erm... that last bit was the cat... he jumped on my phone and that happened! I think he's trying to tell me something
Hoo-bloody-rah.
I didn't even feel a tiny modicum of happiness at the news. Normally I'd be dead chuffed.
Amazing the change the video of CDJ has wrought in me. It's bizarre. I have been been thinking about horses or horse sports that much for two years, just been keeping mine quietly and happily (basically half feral after I lost my nerve or reached the end of my skill set or something.) But then this happens and it's like a switch flipped. I'm thinking about horse sports again but it's very negative. But also feeling a swell of passion for kind, classical training again...
I just wish I had the skills or had someone to actually teach me.
Not to me-rail (I know I do that)... that's just my thoughts. 64rr me.....fed.rah.64r me.....fed.rah.
erm... that last bit was the cat... he jumped on my phone and that happened! I think he's trying to tell me something
Michen
Well-Known Member
I thought some of the horses looked hideously unhappy, mouths open, insane amounts of metal in their mouths, heads flung in the air as they canter down towards a fence, eyes rolling, hoods over their faces.
Not most, some. But those some really stood out.
And not, I might add, our british horses.
Not most, some. But those some really stood out.
And not, I might add, our british horses.
Michen
Well-Known Member
The more I think about it the more I think a ban on flashes, grackles, any kind of alternative tack and the minimisation of bitting for every discipline could be a seriously interesting way to reimagine the sport.
palo1
Well-Known Member
I think grackles are considered quite sympathetic but absolutely agree about a requirement to perform with simpler tack and to get shot of faddy additions unless there is a real consensus of that being in the horse's best interests. I sort of think too, that horses that are shod should only compete if they are not receiving remedial shoeing treatment...competing a horse at the top level with physical evidence of foot issues is discomforting and is likely to encourage poor decision making all the way down the levels; similarly, medical intervention should be monitored.
I gave up endurance when it became more commonplace for horses to receive a 'comfort drip' after a hard race...I think we should have learnt lessons about how ethical or not it is to do 'everything' in the name of competitive success.