CDJ withdrawn from paris

[palo1]

Not sure how I feel about the IV on the one hand you are introducing the potential for infection etc. they are not without complications which I would have thought would want to be avoided on the other hand it can be very difficult to encourage horses to drink and adequate amount following exercise at the best of times I mean there's an idiom about it.

Yes, that is true and obviously you don't want a horse feeling awful after hard work.

But, that is kind of the point, should we be allowing for that possibility outside of a veterinary intervention? I found seeing a row of little Arab endurance horses, hooked up to drips, oh so casually, after a race, quite sickening. These are horses whose metabolism enables their heart rate to drop sufficiently quickly to vet through sound, possibly before stiffness and exhaustion are really evident but can then go back to the stable for a drip and post race anti-inflammatories. I have spoken to a vet that has also said that he has seen this and seen the advanced horses, that have vetted sound post -race, shifting from foot to foot a couple of hours later. I don't want to derail with endurance practices but it's all out there and every discipline does have these contentious management practices, which I do think need reviewing and bringing into the light of day...

 

[criso]

My farrier reckons these are getting used alot now and will eventually be more commonly used than regular shoes.

Not this type but a while ago someone said their farrier had used some sort of special sports shoe on their horse rather than standard.

They saw it as a sign their horse was regarded more as a proper competition horse than a happy hacker and told everyone proudly.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

They saw it as a sign their horse was regarded more as a proper competition horse than a happy hacker and told everyone proudly.

That could well be an aqaintance of mine. Their poor OTT horse was always needing vet's attention for intermittent lameness. She claimed the horse wasn't unsound, just that her horse was so highly bred, the implication being in comparison to our common nags, that all TBs need regular veterinary treatment to keep them at optimum level of performance. She was also extremely proud of this apparent sign of superiority.

Fair enough.

 

[Fransurrey]

I had no idea about 'comfort drips'. I have to say in my opinion, if a horse is being pushed to the extent it's necessary to administer IV of anything, then it's being pushed too far and the process is unethical. Human athletes don't do this - do they???

 

[Burnttoast]

Yes, that is true and obviously you don't want a horse feeling awful after hard work.

But, that is kind of the point, should we be allowing for that possibility outside of a veterinary intervention? I found seeing a row of little Arab endurance horses, hooked up to drips, oh so casually, after a race, quite sickening. These are horses whose metabolism enables their heart rate to drop sufficiently quickly to vet through sound, possibly before stiffness and exhaustion are really evident but can then go back to the stable for a drip and post race anti-inflammatories. I have spoken to a vet that has also said that he has seen this and seen the advanced horses, that have vetted sound post -race, shifting from foot to foot a couple of hours later. I don't want to derail with endurance practices but it's all out there and every discipline does have these contentious management practices, which I do think need reviewing and bringing into the light of day...

I must admit I'm staggered that PETA haven't become a lot more interested in endurance (desert racing particularly) given what's out there and well documented, and has been for some years.

 

[palo1]

I had no idea about 'comfort drips'. I have to say in my opinion, if a horse is being pushed to the extent it's necessary to administer IV of anything, then it's being pushed too far and the process is unethical. Human athletes don't do this - do they???

Well, I think the devil is in the detail...if a horse completes a competition: endurance, eventing, polo, for example and veterinary intervention isn't required, then many would argue that a comfort drip is an effective and supportive post-work therapy and will guarantee rehydration etc. I think some event horses get comfort drips after the xc phase, in part to speed recovery before show jumping. I think one of the Olympic horses was given fluids like this after the xc this year.

I completely agree that anything IV should be seen as veterinary, rather than supportive but not everyone sees it that way. Some horses don't or won't drink sufficiently and syringing electrolytes might be difficult I suppose. There are plenty of people that think we should not be pushing horses to the extent that we need to consider that level of recovery therapy.

I don't think there has been a Golden Age of equestrianism but certainly horses were able to complete arduous competitions safely with only very simple, low levels of support to aid recovery in the past. I don't know what should be acceptable tbh: but for me IV therapy for recovery suggests too much has been asked for.

 

[criso]

That could well be an aqaintance of mine. Their poor OTT horse was always needing vet's attention for intermittent lameness. She claimed the horse wasn't unsound, just that her horse was so highly bred, the implication being in comparison to our common nags, that all TBs need regular veterinary treatment to keep them at optimum level of performance. She was also extremely proud of this apparent sign of superiority.

Fair enough.

In this case it was a youngish ISH with no known previous problems and with average feet. It was on the same level with the competition mix and cubes it got that our mere horses didn't.

 

[eahotson]

That could well be an aqaintance of mine. Their poor OTT horse was always needing vet's attention for intermittent lameness. She claimed the horse wasn't unsound, just that her horse was so highly bred, the implication being in comparison to our common nags, that all TBs need regular veterinary treatment to keep them at optimum level of performance. She was also extremely proud of this apparent sign of superiority.

Fair enough.

Good Lord.

 

[palo1]

I must admit I'm staggered that PETA haven't become a lot more interested in endurance (desert racing particularly) given what's out there and well documented, and has been for some years.

I imagine that PETA simply would not have a voice in that arena and there are many other places where they will be heard.

 

[Ceifer]

I’m getting pretty tired now of people on social media spouting this quasi-sympathy let’s all be kind stuff when it’s clearly to get likes and shares.

 

[Burnttoast]

I imagine that PETA simply would not have a voice in that arena and there are many other places where they will be heard.

In terms of the ME countries no almost certainly not but it is also run under FEI rules and the FEI can be lobbied (albeit not very successfully hitherto)

 

[palo1]

In terms of the ME countries no almost certainly not but it is also run under FEI rules and the FEI can be lobbied (albeit not very successfully hitherto)

Well, the FEI have failed equine welfare on many counts so it's not massively surprising that they continue to fail endurance horses. It will be interesting to see if there is any change with the CDJ revelations but I suspect not!

 

[Burnttoast]

Well, the FEI have failed equine welfare on many counts so it's not massively surprising that they continue to fail endurance horses. It will be interesting to see if there is any change with the CDJ revelations but I suspect not!

Oh yes, they are one huge fail when it comes to welfare but just wondering why the big AR organisations haven't been onto them before now. I've tried not to think about endurance for a long while (used to crew for GH etc, what I rather innocently think of as 'proper' long-distance riding) but all this discussion has made me wonder about AR's almost complete absence in lobbying/protesting most horse sports up till now.

 

[HollyWoozle]

I saw a post doing the rounds on FB yesterday which said something like "was what Charlotte was doing right? Probably not" in defence of her. "Probably not"? Says it all really. Had scores of people underneath it agreeing.

 

[sbloom]

Re Fames shoes..I found this interesting reading. They could be different shoes but they look very similar to me?

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/337941214_Trot_Accelerations_of_Equine_Front_and_Hind_Hooves_Shod_with_Polyurethane_Composite_Shoes_and_Steel_Shoes_on_Asphalt

Fame's are heart bars, I've not seen a composite that looks like that. I've not looked closer than that vu suspect it's heart bars and pads and not this more modern approach (which I quite like, alongside barefoot wherever possible).

Grackles have in fact been shown to be the most sympathetic nosebands, more so than even cavessons. Correctly fitted they do not hold the mouth shut, tongue in, or impact on the sensitive facial nerves. In principle I agree with simplification from where we are now, but grackles in particular are better for the horse.

The two bit fitters I know well would disagree. The testing only looked at traditional nosebands I guess.

I had no idea about 'comfort drips'. I have to say in my opinion, if a horse is being pushed to the extent it's necessary to administer IV of anything, then it's being pushed too far and the process is unethical. Human athletes don't do this - do they???

Hideous.

I think we all need to look at each thing and decide if competing is worth the compromise to the horse. Composite shoes yes, as they'll benefit huge numbers of horses, IV drips no, absolutely not, as there is absolutely no benefit apart from to the horse that has been pushed too hard in competition.

 

[Ceifer]

I saw a post doing the rounds on FB yesterday which said something like "was what Charlotte was doing right? Probably not" in defence of her. "Probably not"? Says it all really. Had scores of people underneath it agreeing.

Exactly.

It’s the people saying “oh we’ve all done it/done worse”
Actually no we’ve not all done that.

 

[khalswitz]

I agree that what she did was unacceptable.

But (and I might regret saying this) I also find it hard because I can’t claim that I haven’t hit a horse in a temper or used tools like draw reins, market harboroughs and chambons in the past. Sure it was back when I was a teenager and being taught and mentored in a way I cannot agree with any more, but I’m not without sin in this regard and ignorance isn’t an excuse. So I can see why a lot of people will feel like the furore around this video is hypocritical.

I think it’s very true to say that many, many people behave or have previously behaved in the way Charlotte did in that video, and the irony of some of the backgrounds of people who have come out to castigate her is ridiculous. But that doesn’t make what she did ok, it makes this a difficult period in our sport where we are trying to change our culture to something more welfare focused, but we are neither there yet nor used to these standards yet across the industry.

 

[suestowford]

On the subject of nosebands...are they absolutely necessary? I ask this because my horse broke his on a gate I was trying to undo, it was in pieces so I put the remains into my pocket and we carried on. Having no noseband made no difference to him at all so I never bothered to replace it.
Are they used only to keep the horse's mouth closed? I've often wondered about this since the gate incident, I'd always just blindly put the thing on, thinking it was important. How many other things get used just because we think we need them?

 

[Pinkvboots]

On the subject of nosebands...are they absolutely necessary? I ask this because my horse broke his on a gate I was trying to undo, it was in pieces so I put the remains into my pocket and we carried on. Having no noseband made no difference to him at all so I never bothered to replace it.
Are they used only to keep the horse's mouth closed? I've often wondered about this since the gate incident, I'd always just blindly put the thing on, thinking it was important. How many other things get used just because we think we need them?

I don't use one on Arabi now he has a martingale as I like it for the grab factor and it does help with high head if he gets silly.

 

[paisley]

Well, IV hydration shouldn’t be standard, but I had one suffer impaction colic after a three day despite having plenty of access to water, electrolytes, soaked hay, lots of grazing etc. He had IV fluids when he had to travel to international events to prevent that happening again. Not ideal but not to be dismissed as an option .

 

[paddy555]

I don't use one on Arabi now he has a martingale as I like it for the grab factor and it does help with high head if he gets silly.

View attachment 143772

lovely horse PB.

 

[paddy555]

On the subject of nosebands...are they absolutely necessary? I ask this because my horse broke his on a gate I was trying to undo, it was in pieces so I put the remains into my pocket and we carried on. Having no noseband made no difference to him at all so I never bothered to replace it.
Are they used only to keep the horse's mouth closed? I've often wondered about this since the gate incident, I'd always just blindly put the thing on, thinking it was important. How many other things get used just because we think we need them?

I don't have an answer and possibly "correctly fitted" comes very much into this noseband problem.

Cortez, with your experience it would be good if you could answer this point and explain what we (they) should be using on these high class dressage horses because I am lost.

 

[Pinkvboots]

lovely horse PB.

Thank you

 

[Michen]

Grackles have in fact been shown to be the most sympathetic nosebands, more so than even cavessons. Correctly fitted they do not hold the mouth shut, tongue in, or impact on the sensitive facial nerves. In principle I agree with simplification from where we are now, but grackles in particular are better for the horse.

Bridle Testing & Design

Researchers tested under all areas of a large number of bridles on a variety of horses using Pliance pressure mapping technology and gait analysis to identify the exact location of high-pressure zones and demonstrate the performance improvements when bridle pressure is removed.

fairfaxsaddles.com

​

8.​

A cavesson noseband fitted high up against the cheekbones puts pressure on arteries running directly under the end of cheekbone and causes reduced joint flexion compared to a correctly fitting noseband.​

9.​

The flash noseband had the highest pressures and the most detrimental effect on a horse’s movement. A flash strap that drags down the lower edge of the cavesson is the most antagonistic design we tested.​

10.​

Drop and grackle nosebands perform better in terms of pressure reduction and freedom of movement compared to any other conventional noseband we tested.​

​

Except we can't trust anyone to correctly fit them, as they are often too tight.

 

[misst]

Well, IV hydration shouldn’t be standard, but I had one suffer impaction colic after a three day despite having plenty of access to water, electrolytes, soaked hay, lots of grazing etc. He had IV fluids when he had to travel to international events to prevent that happening again. Not ideal but not to be dismissed as an option .

But I am assuming your horse needed it for purely medical reasons. I am also sure you did not give your horse colic in the first place. Pushing a horse so hard that it needs IV fluid replacement, especially if it is to ensure it is fit to compete again very quickly is not the same as a medical intervention for something that is a medical emergency and likely not related to competition.

 

[Peregrine Falcon]

Just talking about the situation on discovery+

 

[HuskyFluff]

Female commentator has just come out with the old chestnut that the horses wouldn't perform if they were treated badly...

 

[lovely_ponies]

Just talking about the situation on discovery+

Am I right that I heard her say she "knows the situation" and that the person filming the video is the owner of the horse?

 

[blitznbobs]

I had no idea about 'comfort drips'. I have to say in my opinion, if a horse is being pushed to the extent it's necessary to administer IV of anything, then it's being pushed too far and the process is unethical. Human athletes don't do this - do they???

Human athletes do all kinds of shit - legal and illegal - harmful and even more harmful… if you want to get into that it’s a fascinating and dark world … the will to win makes humans take all kinds of risks with their own bodies

 

[misst]

I have just turned it off she's made me so cross.