CDJ withdrawn from paris

Bobthecob15 said:
It’s all so sad and disturbing, I have a very sad and upset 9yr old that adored Charlotte, she’s always looked up to her and idolised her. she can’t believe it. What do you say to a child to even begin to explain it? 😭
Click to expand...

Unfortunately it appears that that is how life works. Life has a rude habit of waking us up to the true natures of people. Use it as a lesson on how power and ambition corrupt.

(As a sidenote, I was a big fan of Michael Jackson and Rolf Harris at that age. Of course, it's not the same thing but the feeling of betrayal was unreal even as an adult!)
 
Bobthecob15 said:
It’s all so sad and disturbing, I have a very sad and upset 9yr old that adored Charlotte, she’s always looked up to her and idolised her. she can’t believe it. What do you say to a child to even begin to explain it? 😭
Click to expand...
You tell her what Charlotte was like as a 9 year old!
She would do anything to win, including stepping forward to take a prize when someone else’s number was called.
Cutting other kids up in the ring…riding in between other kids and the judge; ignoring the steward at HOYS when they were pulling everyone in reverse order so she was higher up the line-up…
 
WrongLeg said:
You tell her what Charlotte was like as a 9 year old!
She would do anything to win, including stepping forward to take a prize when someone else’s number was called.
Cutting other kids up in the ring…riding in between other kids and the judge; ignoring the steward at HOYS when they were pulling everyone in reverse order so she was higher up the line-up…
Click to expand...

And if you look at any other sport those are often the qualities needed to win, but we try and combine it with horses...mismatch for sure.
 
Bobthecob15 said:
It’s all so sad and disturbing, I have a very sad and upset 9yr old that adored Charlotte, she’s always looked up to her and idolised her. she can’t believe it. What do you say to a child to even begin to explain it? 😭
Click to expand...
Explain that when money is involved then people start to take shortcuts and embrace behaviours that aren't right to get to the top. Gymnastics, cycling and even Strictly have all had their dirty washing dragged out in public and equestrian sports seem to be doing their best to join them.

What really confuses me is training - good or bad - is about repetition. If you are going to train a horse to lift it's legs by cracking a whip then a one-off session won't do it. Needs to be over & over. But this it being touted as a one-off lesson so how was it supposed to "improve" the horse? If that was mine we'd have gone home confused and upset but unlikely to be picking up legs any higher. Unless of course she expected the whip cracking up continue outside her lesson.
 
WrongLeg said:
You tell her what Charlotte was like as a 9 year old!
She would do anything to win, including stepping forward to take a prize when someone else’s number was called.
Cutting other kids up in the ring…riding in between other kids and the judge; ignoring the steward at HOYS when they were pulling everyone in reverse order so she was higher up the line-up…
Click to expand...
To be absolutely fair, there were a good number in that age group who were exactly the same 30 years ago, they all grew up.
That was the hay days for when I was producing too, with a daughter a year older.
Do you think this new? Still going on these days, just different faces. I digress.....

I dont think it compares whatsoever to an adult beating a horse, do you?
 
blitznbobs said:
Given the few answers here then confessing to doing wrong is the worst thing someone can do because the way she did it she might have got away with it …

I’m not saying I believe what she said - I think I have been quite vocal that I don’t but if no credit is given for telling on yourself then why would anyone ever do so. Thus the not sorry then only sorry now message doesn’t really hold up —
Click to expand...
But she wasn't being truthful in her sincerity of regret. She was trying to get out ahead of an inevitable PR nightmare - IMO. That's the difference to me.

I will use myself as an example. I said in an earlier post how, as a teenager, I participated in a dressage lesson at my then place of work and continued the lesson despite being asked to ride in a way that I didn't agree with. I regret that, deeply, to this day. Yes I was a nervous teenager in a power imbalance, but as an adult, I look back with regret and am fully open and honest to being a part of a problem that day.

CDJ didn't do that. IMO, she lied. Because I think it is her usual way of teaching and wasn't a one-off mistake.

You don't admit to wrong doing for a pat on the back and sympathy, you do it because it's the right thing to do.
 
I can't get over the fundamental misunderstanding that lifting the legs higher should be trained like a trick rather than emerge naturally from correct gymnastic conditioning. Even if you were to train leg lifting with well-executed positive reinforcement rather than a stupid and poorly timed attempt at negative reinforcement I suppose, it would still be incorrect training and produce potential longer term negative physical consequences for the horse.

I can't get over whacking a ridden horse with lunge whip especially with the rider being a youngster.

Mad.
 
Miss_Millie said:
This is going to be an unpopular opinion, but I'm quite disappointed by this part of Pammy Hutton's response:

'If riding stops; horses are unnecessary; too expensive to keep for pets. Let the cull begin.'

I don't actually think that this is true, I think that there are many people who care about their horses deeply to the point that it goes beyond riding. I know lots of people with non-ridden horses and ponies who don't treat or view them any differently than their ridden steeds, they get a lot out of joy out of caring for them and doing groundwork activities, just watching them being horses.

I think that anyone who would immediately kill their horse when they are no longer 'useful' is part of the problem. Yes I know that horses are very expensive to keep, but so are many other animals, especially when they reach old age and need medications and extra vet care. Taking on that responsibility is a choice as soon as you purchase an animal and become their guardian.

I would argue that people who would cull their horses if they couldn't ride them anymore, didn't deserve them in the first place.
Click to expand...
I think she has a point.

Like most people with leisure horses I would absolutely keep my horse for the rest of her life if I could no longer ride her. However I don't think I would acquire another if I could never ride it. So what happens to the young horses being bred now? What happens to the horses in competition and racing yards that no longer have a job? The military and police horses? That's a lot of horses to retire if there are no leisure riders.

How would a riding school cope? Even the most loving and responsible owner probably can't care for twenty odd ponies when their income has vanished.

If all riding had to cease many horses would be destroyed.
 
The Fuzzy Furry said:
To be absolutely fair, there were a good number in that age group who were exactly the same 30 years ago, they all grew up.
That was the hay days for when I was producing too, with a daughter a year older.
Do you think this new? Still going on these days, just different faces. I digress.....

I dont think it compares whatsoever to an adult beating a horse, do you?
Click to expand...
Charlotte had a reputation that was much worse than any other jockey.
Put it this way, I was specifically told to keep an eye on her in the ring…

I was drawn next to Charlotte, (Ardenhall Royal Secret) Melanie P/ Imogen A (Bradmore Catkin) at most Wembley Qualifiers and I never had to watch out for either of them.

Her mum and sister are really nice and never behaved like this.
 
SEL said:
Explain that when money is involved then people start to take shortcuts and embrace behaviours that aren't right to get to the top. Gymnastics, cycling and even Strictly have all had their dirty washing dragged out in public and equestrian sports seem to be doing their best to join them.

What really confuses me is training - good or bad - is about repetition. If you are going to train a horse to lift it's legs by cracking a whip then a one-off session won't do it. Needs to be over & over. But this it being touted as a one-off lesson so how was it supposed to "improve" the horse? If that was mine we'd have gone home confused and upset but unlikely to be picking up legs any higher. Unless of course she expected the whip cracking up continue outside her lesson.
Click to expand...
This is why I no longer have dressage lessons with "big names". I think they feel under pressure to show something in one session otherwise customers feel disappointed. This I felt has led to instructors trying to push beyond what I am happy for the horse to do at the current stage of training. I would far rather they asses us and point out where our training holes or weaknesses are and then describe some exercises I can do over time to improve. That would be far more beneficial then trying to change everything in 45 mins!
 
Miss_Millie said:
I don't actually think that this is true, I think that there are many people who care about their horses deeply to the point that it goes beyond riding.
Click to expand...
I do think it is true.
Most people with pet ponies have them because they are long standing family members. Normally its because they once were ridden horse and people can’t bare to part with them.
Those won’t be culled but they also are unlikely to be replaced when they do die.

Millions of breeding stock and competition horses would be culled.
No point breeding ridden horses if no one can ride.

Horses ARE expensive to keep and there are only a very very small minority that would be willing to buy a new horse that you can’t ride.
 
I honestly think 80% of people in the horse world treat horses badly at one time or another and bury their heads in the sand. I know plenty of people who Ive seen with my own eyes doing horrid things to their horses at events, yet their the ones on social media advocating horse welfare... I genuinely think a lot of people believe they're lovely to their horses when actually they're really not. To be honest, yes Ive probably witnessed far worse over the years many times so we all know its a massive widespread problem. I dont know what the answer is, I dont know how you change peoples attitudes. Its sad the whole thing :(
 
conniegirl said:
I do think it is true.
Most people with pet ponies have them because they are long standing family members. Normally its because they once were ridden horse and people can’t bare to part with them.
Those won’t be culled but they also are unlikely to be replaced when they do die.

Millions of breeding stock and competition horses would be culled.
No point breeding ridden horses if no one can ride.

Horses ARE expensive to keep and there are only a very very small minority that would be willing to buy a new horse that you can’t ride.
Click to expand...
And if ridden horses reduce in number then the livery spaces for those who want to keep non ridden horses will be few and far between (and probably expensive)
 
There has been talk about the age of the rider.

Personally I'd be very interested to know the age of the horse in the video. As I mentioned in a post yesterday there is pressure to produce quickly and we are seeing GP horses at age 8 now.

Yet it is well known the warmblood horses are slow maturing and often are not physically mature until age 8 and yet they are pushed into movements for 4 yo and 5yo classes that are really quite advanced.

That is really the fundamental 'abuse' in the current sport of the higher grade dressage these days. No wonder so many WB horses are finished and pts by age 7 or 8 (if not younger) due to irreversible/untreatable veterinary conditions.

If that was a young(ish) horse in that video it makes it even more inexcusable as the horse patently wasn't understanding what was being asked of it. As stated above, training horses is a repetition of 'commands' over time. Young horses pushed too high up the grades too fast don't have the store of knowledge input into them by repetition to survive the competition pressures.

Adding into the mix a younger rider and it fulfills the old saying 'don't put a novice with a novice'.
 
MagicMelon said:
I honestly think 80% of people in the horse world treat horses badly at one time or another and bury their heads in the sand. I know plenty of people who Ive seen with my own eyes doing horrid things to their horses at events, yet their the ones on social media advocating horse welfare... I genuinely think a lot of people believe they're lovely to their horses when actually they're really not. To be honest, yes Ive probably witnessed far worse over the years many times so we all know its a massive widespread problem. I dont know what the answer is, I dont know how you change peoples attitudes. Its sad the whole thing :(
Click to expand...
MM - when you say that, are you meaning professionals or the armature - I am not saying either is right btw
 
WrongLeg said:
Charlotte had a reputation that was much worse than any other jockey.
Put it this way, I was specifically told to keep an eye on her in the ring…

I was drawn next to Charlotte, (Ardenhall Royal Secret) Melanie P/ Imogen A (Bradmore Catkin) at most Wembley Qualifiers and I never had to watch out for either of them.

Her mum and sister are really nice and never behaved like this.
Click to expand...
🤣🤣🤣🤣 Mel and my daughter actually almost collided when both were cutting each other up, despite being told not to do it.
Words were had....
WrongLeg, remove the pack of chips, till this came to light it's been rare to see/hear of any BSPS horrors.
As I said above, there were many doing that, still are.

I'm still disgusted and furious that CDJ has beaten a horse, just vile.
 
IrishMilo said:
I hate what Charlotte has done. But what I hate more is seeing friends, people I know, stick up for her, admit they've done the same/worse and stay mute on the subject. Why are people so afraid of standing up for what is right?

How is anyone able to defend this?
Click to expand...
I feel similarly. Less so direct friends as I have very few horsey connections and the ones I do have don't seem to have posted anything but then neither have I. I have banned myself from reading comments sections on articles about CDJ because I can't stand the sheer volume of 'I've seen/done worse'. Not as points of reflection or change but almost as bragging. There was even a 'the horse was misbehaving it should be under control' and I just think nope. I'm out. It is overwhelming how many people are defending it or trying to deflect on to other things.
 
IrishMilo said:
I hate what Charlotte has done. But what I hate more is seeing friends, people I know, stick up for her, admit they've done the same/worse and stay mute on the subject. Why are people so afraid of standing up for what is right?

How is anyone able to defend this?
Click to expand...

Yep I've seen a few sharing posts that defend her, alluding novices are worse
 
IrishMilo said:
I hate what Charlotte has done. But what I hate more is seeing friends, people I know, stick up for her, admit they've done the same/worse and stay mute on the subject. Why are people so afraid of standing up for what is right?

How is anyone able to defend this?
Click to expand...

I'm not seeing people defend it but I am seeing people put their hands up and say welfare is more than just an awful, nasty training session.

On my timeline yesterday I had some good eyebrows raising moments as there were "omg this is awful" comments from
- a massively overweight rider
- more than one person with overweight horse who has suffered laminitis (I'm in that category this year and mortified)
- someone who is so deep in the "horses must live out" life that her horses spent all of winter knee deep in mud.

None of those people seemed to have an recognition of their own welfare issues.

I'm pretty sure some of the more competitive crowd were silent because they know their halos aren't always sparkly.

Horse welfare (animal welfare even) has always had the good, the bad and the downright ugly.
 
I am not for one minute defending CDJ AT ALL. But where is the rest of the video, the whole lesson? We are seeing one moment in time I'd be interested in seeing the whole video for context. Also curious as to the horse, where is it now and what is it doing.
Like I say am not defending her but there must always be context!
 
equinerebel said:
But she wasn't being truthful in her sincerity of regret. She was trying to get out ahead of an inevitable PR nightmare - IMO. That's the difference to me.

I will use myself as an example. I said in an earlier post how, as a teenager, I participated in a dressage lesson at my then place of work and continued the lesson despite being asked to ride in a way that I didn't agree with. I regret that, deeply, to this day. Yes I was a nervous teenager in a power imbalance, but as an adult, I look back with regret and am fully open and honest to being a part of a problem that day.

CDJ didn't do that. IMO, she lied. Because I think it is her usual way of teaching and wasn't a one-off mistake.

You don't admit to wrong doing for a pat on the back and sympathy, you do it because it's the right thing to do.
Click to expand...
I absolutely agree - I don’t think it’s a one off and they should come down on her like a tonne of bricks but Had her statement have been true and she had decided to come straight out and say I’ve cocked up in a big way she would have been equally vilified and that isn’t good over all… as it makes people conceal things more
 
Cortez said:
Most horse abuse is through ignorance, perpetrated by people who don't understand that they are being abusive. That cannot be said of what occured in that video, but I presume that either she didn't consider it abuse, or didn't care that it was.
Click to expand...

I think this is a key point for me - we’re not talking a novice here, we’re talking about someone who should in theory know better.
 
Ifmpw said:
Even if the complaint is thrown out by the FEI, the truth is thankfully out in the public domain.

But what a pathetic measure to try and say - I have been caught out brutalizing's a horse, but because folk were scared at the time, and it was 2 years ago, then I should be allowed to get away with it.
Click to expand...
I’m hoping there’s no statute of limitations on that. I get that she’s being punished by having to withdraw from the Olympics, most high profile equestrian event worldwide, but there must (should) be recourse to further sanctions?
 
I don’t think riding is going anywhere. Not in our lifetime. I’m the first to admit that I have horses for riding and would not buy them for the purpose of being expensive unridden pets unless I had my own land (obviously if one became an unridden pet due to injury, that’s different).

If the UK government banned all riding tomorrow, I’d probably up and move to Ireland. Or back to the States. I don’t see those countries banning riding. I’ve just spent many hours in a pub in Leitrim with a shrine to racing on the wall. One of the largest photos was a montage of someone having a rotational fall over a jump. I think it was meant to be funny. I was trying to play bloody tunes but found that quite off putting! The Irish posters might tell me I’m wrong, but I don’t see that country doing enough hand wringing to ban all riding.

And as for the US, well, I don’t think an explanation is needed. Freedom, yo (except for reproductive freedom but that’s a different problem).
 
teapot said:
I think this is a key point for me - we’re not talking a novice here, we’re talking about someone who should in theory know better.
Click to expand...
Yes, this is such a large part of my sense of anger and disappointment. In the video footage CDJ just looks like a cheap, low end dealer (I can't think of the right word and not intending to slur decent people who deal in horses but I think most people will understand a culturally colloquial reference here) - aggression instead of clarity, total lack of empathy for the horse, with only an immediate outcome in mind. There is ego a-plenty and total lack of self awareness.

I thought, hoped, assumed, that with the length and extent of her training, experience and opportunity to think, full time, about horses that she would be 'better', in just about every way. I know people who have had good training experiences with her but this is a world apart from a values and integrity based approach to horses. It is just so, so sad and disappointing that, on this day, our 'top' equestrian couldn't find better tools and a kinder approach.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top