CDJ withdrawn from paris

Pearlsasinger said:
I talk to my horses all the time BUT, I have known RS owners who have controlled their horses by voice at quite a distance. I suppose it would be possible for someone ringside to use voice aids to sideline the rider I used to know one RS owner who could control a group of at least 10 horses on their way back to their field from the yard by voice, she stood at the yard gate and watched them all turn into the field gate.
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Very good point. I had to put a ban on my instructor saying anything about what was next.. she would tell me what I had to before hand and I would just have to remember it or I was getting a face full of horse ears at any mention of ā€œwalkā€ lol my boy is very very voice sensitive.
 
Another thought..

CDJ says how sorry she isā€¦didnā€™t apologise to the horse though did she, Iā€™ve just realised.

Before anyone reminds me horses canā€™t read, thank you Iā€™m aware, but from a karmic point of view, if I were sorry, theyā€™d be top of my list (although Iā€™m also, back in reality, minded to think sheā€™s not that sorry never mind worrying about karma)ā€¦.
 
Burnerbee said:
Another thought..

CDJ says how sorry she isā€¦didnā€™t apologise to the horse though did she, Iā€™ve just realised.

Before anyone reminds me horses canā€™t read, thank you Iā€™m aware, but from a karmic point of view, if I were sorry, theyā€™d be top of my list (although Iā€™m also, back in reality, minded to think sheā€™s not that sorry never mind worrying about karma)ā€¦.
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To be fair, we have no idea what steps she has and hasnā€™t taken personally.
 
Instructors should be using cue words, we did, not sure why they wouldn't. I was taught to do that 35 years ago when doing my exams. They were changed each lesson. I take it ways have changed and nobody bothers doing it like that. I did most of my training at the YRC and that's how I was taught. They had very high standards when they did lessons.

Also there are loads of people in the audience who will be say trot now blah blah the point is to let your horse listen to you. You just need the voice communication there. You don't have to use the words walk trot canter etc. You can train to the words of your choice.
 
LadyGascoyne said:
I understand all the arguments about the fact that these sports horses are naturally really tense, and itā€™s really hard to ride tense horses at a really high level. I do really understand that itā€™s often (often, not always sadly) not the riders ā€œfaultā€ that the horse is tense.

But I think that if we enforced marks off for symptoms of tension, then tense horses would become less desirable rides. Theyā€™d become less sellable, and those lines of sports horses which tend towards being highly strung would become less valuable. Weā€™d stop breeding from the horses that are known to produce very hot offspring.

There would be fewer inappropriate horses who donā€™t make top grade flowing down into amateur competition, and weā€™d have less reason to normalise tension throughout the levels. Or even to glorify it.

It might inadvertently penalise riders who are in an existing partnerships with tense horses, and owners with investments in those kind of horses. But I think it would be for the best.

ETA, I should link that to what Iā€™ve been thinking about today which is, I wonder how much of the whipping of that horse in the video was to get that massive expression in movement that has become so popular. It didnā€™t look like she was trying to provoke the horse to move forward alone. She chased from behind into heavy contact, and then she hit the shoulder too, so it seemed like both pushing the horse both forward and back... so maybe it was motivated by seeking elevation in its paces that is so often deemed ā€œexpressiveā€ these days. Iā€™m still struggling with that video and what on earth it was trying to achieve tbh
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Whenever I did dressage with my Arab's and I have also ridden other people's Arab's as well i got rubbish scores sometimes because of tension, this was only prelim and novice but at times it was written several times and yes I can agree they were tense at times.

I do feel it was down to being in a unfamiliar environment and them being a bit like that because that's just how Arab's are sometimes, so it's obviously picked up on in low level but not as you go up the levels and not at top level.

I also remember a dressage instructor saying to me if you want to do serious dressage don't do it on an Arab.
 
southerncomfort said:
Yep.

Like the ones that dared to mention studies showing that frothing at the mouth is actually caused by tension, not relaxation as previously thought. Pammy and her pals didn't like that and were incredibly rude and belittling.

Or the ones suggesting that double bridles be optional, not compulsory.

I'm afraid they are dinosaurs, desperately scared of any kind of change, and absolutely not the kind of people we want speaking for the us (or horses).
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Too much frothing of the mouth is caused by tension, compression of a gland in the neck? However, a horse should have a wet, relaxed mouth.

More froth does not mean better.
 
Talking of froth, A well respected dentist who likes to talk a lot whilst working mentioned he has seen horses arrive at a comp venue and soon as unloaded started to froth before the tack was on, and I talk to my animals all day, never stop, they love it, but when riding as needed, the voice can be very calming, I see nothing wrong in the voice used to calm and remind the horse you are there with it, and to thank it, there is great difference between horses working in training induced tension and highly strung horses, the first is the riders fault, the second being incapable of chaneling the natural energy to allow the horse to express it in a good way, to totilas was an example, particularly when ridden by a rider of the German school
 
paddy555 said:
how does this bit work. :mad: Is it acceptable
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Interesting, it looks like the horse has the nasal strips put on to no effect since lower down, the noseband / bit contraption is pressing on the soft part of the nose and visibly restricting the breathing. It's really sickening that there are no stewards at this level who can or are willing to pick this up. FEI will presumably think this is acceptable until there is a public outcry or they are petitioned by PETA to respond. In some ways these things are worse than the whipping as the general public are unaware of the problem and none elite riders are considered insufficiently experience to comment. It's very demoralising.
 
nutjob said:
Interesting, it looks like the horse has the nasal strips put on to no effect since lower down, the noseband / bit contraption is pressing on the soft part of the nose and visibly restricting the breathing. It's really sickening that there are no stewards at this level who can or are willing to pick this up. FEI will presumably think this is acceptable until there is a public outcry or they are petitioned by PETA to respond. In some ways these things are worse than the whipping as the general public are unaware of the problem and none elite riders are considered insufficiently experience to comment. It's very demoralising.
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agree
 
Kaylum said:
Instructors should be using cue words, we did, not sure why they wouldn't. I was taught to do that 35 years ago when doing my exams. They were changed each lesson. I take it ways have changed and nobody bothers doing it like that. I did most of my training at the YRC and that's how I was taught. They had very high standards when they did lessons.

Also there are loads of people in the audience who will be say trot now blah blah the point is to let your horse listen to you. You just need the voice communication there. You don't have to use the words walk trot canter etc. You can train to the words of your choice.
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I am definitely not saying that horses shouldn't react to voice aids but if we are talking about cues which don't use the traditional words for the gaits, that leaves the way open for someone 'in the know' I.e. a team member to give cues that judges and stewards won't pick up.
 
Orangehorse said:
Too much frothing of the mouth is caused by tension, compression of a gland in the neck? However, a horse should have a wet, relaxed mouth.

More froth does not mean better.
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Yes, that's what the studies showed. However, Pammy wouldn't accept it and was mocking anyone who did. It wasn't pleasant.
 
paddy555 said:
and what about it's position on the nostrils?
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It's just slipped down in that photo, it should be worn much higher. The leather noseband bit in the middle is on a 'hinge' almost with the rings that go around the bit so if not fitted correctly they can slip. It's just an error/tack malfunction, not intentional abuse I would say. It works by the metal rings going around the bit at the sides so when you put some pressure on the bit it shares that pressure between the nose and the bars of the mouth, it's supposed to be a kinder way of putting some brakes on something that is super strong - I have used one in the past and it's very effective.

Below to show how it should be fitted - please ignore the horrid martingale thing they have attached to the reins for some reason.... šŸ™„ šŸ™„

1722253397967.png
 
AShetlandBitMeOnce said:
It's just slipped down in that photo, it should be worn much higher. The leather noseband bit in the middle is on a 'hinge' almost with the rings that go around the bit so if not fitted correctly they can slip. It's just an error/tack malfunction, not intentional abuse I would say.
View attachment 143736
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This apparently came from one of the captures that the FEI decided was fit to share to their Instagram story. You would think that with all the controversy over tack etc they would check a pic. and, if it was a genuine accident, discard it PDQ. So who knows.
 
paddy555 said:
This apparently came from one of the captures that the FEI decided was fit to share to their Instagram story. You would think that with all the controversy over tack etc they would check a pic. and, if it was a genuine accident, discard it PDQ. So who knows.
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Oh I didn't see that, what a stupid choice for a photo - I really wish people would think sometimes!
Although that could be applied to a million different things, if people thought first we wouldn't be having to be so careful in the first place!!
 
AShetlandBitMeOnce said:
VERY selective photos chosen to post on Facebook by British Equestrian today of the dressage riders doing the arena familiarisation... they are definitely hyper aware (I would also like to think the riders are riding nicely too of course)
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Yes I think I saw those too, are they the ones where they are saying about the riders patting their horses?.
 
Horseysheepy said:
Yes I think I saw those too, are they the ones where they are saying about the riders patting their horses?.
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I'm not sure to be honest, I just had a quick flick through the photos rather than reading the post. I am a bit over anything to do with elite dressage at the moment so not paying a huge amount of attention above and beyond passive scrolling I have to admit!
 
Perhaps because banning things is draconian, especially when dressage serves a useful purpose for horse fitness, suppleness etc via the scales of training and improving rider ability, which again in turn *should* help the horse. A ban also removes the opportunity to improve things, which would be massively beneficial. Dressage is an accessible sport - you CAN do dressage at lower levels with pretty much any rideable horse. You might not win, but you can take part and really enjoy it. Thatā€™s great for keeping people interested in horses and helping them to improve.

Finally, sending horse abusers elsewhere doesnā€™t help horses. Improving the sport with horse welfare at the forefront shows thereā€™s a better way and abuse would actually be counter productive. Thatā€™s the most effective way to stop it. Dressage offers a golden opportunity in this regard because the risk to the horse is substantially lower than in other equine sports - if it really was pure dressage, the aim was always presented as to help the horse to develop fitness and athleticism and give them a long, healthy, sound career. At the lower levels, I still believe thatā€™s true.

BUT massive changes to dressage and a mission statement along these lines from BD are necessary to deliver that imo.
Backtoblack said:
Reading through these threads it appears there's a lot wrong with dressage. Why not just ban it completely,and let the horse abusers move on to some other thing.
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Backtoblack said:
Reading through these threads it appears there's a lot wrong with dressage. Why not just ban it completely,and let the horse abusers move on to some other thing.
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I agree there is a lot wrong with dressage. But to ban it completely punishes many who enjoy their dressage and training their horses with ethical and humane methods. I think it would be better and fairer if we (they) could winkle out the abusers and cruel methods of training, severe tack etc. etc. If that is possible it would certainly sort the men from the boys and show us some beautiful examples of nicely ridden quality horses with exceptionally talented riders. Don't let's throw the baby out with the bath water.
 
SadKen said:
Perhaps because banning things is draconian, especially when dressage serves a useful purpose for horse fitness, suppleness etc via the scales of training and improving rider ability, which again in turn *should* help the horse. A ban also removes the opportunity to improve things, which would be massively beneficial. Dressage is an accessible sport - you CAN do dressage at lower levels with pretty much any rideable horse. You might not win, but you can take part and really enjoy it. Thatā€™s great for keeping people interested in horses and helping them to improve.

Finally, sending horse abusers elsewhere doesnā€™t help horses. Improving the sport with horse welfare at the forefront shows thereā€™s a better way and abuse would actually be counter productive. Thatā€™s the most effective way to stop it. Dressage offers a golden opportunity in this regard because the risk to the horse is substantially lower than in other equine sports - if it really was pure dressage, the aim was always presented as to help the horse to develop fitness and athleticism and give them a long, healthy, sound career. At the lower levels, I still believe thatā€™s true.

BUT massive changes to dressage and a mission statement along these lines from BD are necessary to deliver that imo.
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Cross posted with you SadKen, but thanks for your post that put it far more eloquently than mine did. ā˜ŗļø
 
SadKen said:
Perhaps because banning things is draconian, especially when dressage serves a useful purpose for horse fitness, suppleness etc via the scales of training and improving rider ability, which again in turn *should* help the horse. A ban also removes the opportunity to improve things, which would be massively beneficial. Dressage is an accessible sport - you CAN do dressage at lower levels with pretty much any rideable horse. You might not win, but you can take part and really enjoy it. Thatā€™s great for keeping people interested in horses and helping them to improve.

Finally, sending horse abusers elsewhere doesnā€™t help horses. Improving the sport with horse welfare at the forefront shows thereā€™s a better way and abuse would actually be counter productive. Thatā€™s the most effective way to stop it. Dressage offers a golden opportunity in this regard because the risk to the horse is substantially lower than in other equine sports - if it really was pure dressage, the aim was always presented as to help the horse to develop fitness and athleticism and give them a long, healthy, sound career. At the lower levels, I still believe thatā€™s true.

BUT massive changes to dressage and a mission statement along these lines from BD are necessary to deliver that imo.
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I think of a small venue near me.Very low key.Most people do either walk trot or the simpler prelims with their nice but ordinary horses and ponies.You see families there and everyone ,including the horses seem unstressed and enjoying their day out.It would seem a shame to stop things like that.
 
Mrs. Jingle said:
Cross posted with you SadKen, but thanks for your post that put it far more eloquently than mine did. ā˜ŗļø
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Yours had a lot more brevity; Iā€™ve always had a tendency to go on!

Three cheers for small venues with happy riders on their fantastic ordinary horses (we all know no such thing really exists! Iā€™ve never met an ordinary horse šŸ˜‚) and for those asking the hard questions like whether dressage should be banned. Long past time for these conversations to take place.

Imo the average rider should be given more power to direct the future of this sport; the best have shown they arenā€™t the right ones to have it. With great power comes great responsibilityā€¦
 
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