CDJ withdrawn from paris

reynold said:
Whilst not thinking that a witch hunt is a good thing, perhaps if the owners of competition horses were more widely publicised, say every time the horse entered the ring the owner was announced over the tannoy, it could help to stop the 'financial support' given to those suspended for horse abuse.

As mentioned several times above, the owners of CDJ current mounts are complicit in facilitating the possible future abuse of horses - similarly Helgstrand's owners. Outing owners though won't stop CDJ riding horses she owns personally in competition.

Personally I think there ought to be more long term consequences for abuse and I will be disgusted if CDJ gets back her UK Sport funding.

As there has been mention/comparison above with starting stalls in racing I will put out a racing analogy here. Recently Oisin Murphy was convicted of drink driving and banned for 20 months. Although previously champion flat jockey he has also had a previous long ban from racing for drink/drug abuse. Following his dd conviction the racing authorities have put in place long term pre-race and out of race testing programs, but also put in place additional 'support' to help him with his alcohol problems.

Horse racing is not perfect but it does seem in comparison that BD is prepared to let a rider banned for serious horse abuse just pick up where they left off and carry on without any further oversight.

Also in regard to owners I believe that one of the people laughing in the gallery of the original CDJ video was the abused horse's owner. Perhaps she ought also to have received a ban or other 'punishment' for allowing abuse to continue right in front of her....?
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Perhaps owners should be subject to the same fines and bans as the riders on the basis that they acted as procurers in effect and should take responsibiity for the behaviour of their employees. Unfortunately that never happens in any walk of life (gamekeepers take the fall for estate owners over raptor killings, eg) because the higher you rise the more untouchable you become.
 
I think these "owners" have a lot to answer for as well. How could people still have horses with Helgstrand? I expect a lot demand instant results in return for their £££'s. Plus sponsors for continuing to financially support these people just because they are out there/getting results. The whole picture is very poor with many strands in this whole disgusting web

And why it seems to have become a thing to breed and reward horses who look like their leg is dislocating and broken, goodness only knows, I think it looks absolutely hideous

Id gladly see the back of most horse "sports"
 
In fact I'm thinking that owner bans could apply across their string so none of their horses could be transferred to another rider and horses not proved to be involved in incidents would also be unable to compete for the duration. That would concentrate a few minds. They could be banned from attending events too. I'm on a roll here...
 
Burnttoast said:
In fact I'm thinking that owner bans could apply across their string so none of their horses could be transferred to another rider and horses not proved to be involved in incidents would also be unable to compete for the duration. That would concentrate a few minds. They could be banned from attending events too. I'm on a roll here...
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Yes! Perhaps you should be on the FEI might actually be more effective thrn
 
Yes - as per my recent post - Oisin Murphy has an addiction problem and is receiving support from the horseracing authorities for that problem as part of his new schedule.

However it has been gone over many times previously in this thread that abuse is related to 'temper'. Bullying/abuse is also known to be 'addictive' in that perpetrators become repeat offenders.

Surely the least that BD/FEI should do with those banned for abuse is to compel them to take an Anger Management course as part of their punishment?

@Burnttoast that is a very good idea that during bans ownership transfers/sales cannot take place. Although for the sake of the horse(s) involved movement of the horse to another stable/carer should still be permitted.
 
Crazy_cat_lady said:
Yes! Perhaps you should be on the FEI might actually be more effective thrn
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I wrote:

"In light of recent horse abuse scandals and in view of the FEI's stated commitment to horse welfare, can I ask what measures are taken against *owners* of horses involved in abuse cases? I fear that the answer is none (unless the rider is the owner) and that this situation is analogous to others, such as wildlife crime on sporting estates in the UK, where a culture encouraging wildlife crime is arguably fostered by estate owners but where the only people prosecuted are gamekeepers, despite there being an argument that their employers are effectively inciting them to commit criminal acts.

In the case of horse sport, owners who do not ensure that their riders are acting in a manner conducive to horse welfare but who supply those riders with horses can be seen as effectively acting as procurers or enablers.

I would propose that: owners of horses identified as being abused by their rider/trainer or treated in a manner that attracts rider/trainer sanctions by the FEI should be subject to the same sanctions (fines and suspensions), and that any suspensions should be extended across owners' horses as a whole, so that no horses in that ownership can be transferred to another rider, sold, or have ownership transferred to another party for the duration of the suspension. A ban on attending events organised by or associated with the FEI could also be put in place. This would encourage owners to take a keener interest in the behaviour of anyone involved with their horses."

They are going to get sick of me soon.
 
reynold said:
Yes - as per my recent post - Oisin Murphy has an addiction problem and is receiving support from the horseracing authorities for that problem as part of his new schedule.

However it has been gone over many times previously in this thread that abuse is related to 'temper'. Bullying/abuse is also known to be 'addictive' in that perpetrators become repeat offenders.

Surely the least that BD/FEI should do with those banned for abuse is to compel them to take an Anger Management course as part of their punishment?

@Burnttoast that is a very good idea that during bans ownership transfers/sales cannot take place. Although for the sake of the horse(s) involved movement of the horse to another stable/carer should still be permitted.
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That last part is a good point which I didn't include in my email and wish I had
 
reynold said:
Yes - as per my recent post - Oisin Murphy has an addiction problem and is receiving support from the horseracing authorities for that problem as part of his new schedule.

However it has been gone over many times previously in this thread that abuse is related to 'temper'. Bullying/abuse is also known to be 'addictive' in that perpetrators become repeat offenders.

Surely the least that BD/FEI should do with those banned for abuse is to compel them to take an Anger Management course as part of their punishment?

@Burnttoast that is a very good idea that during bans ownership transfers/sales cannot take place. Although for the sake of the horse(s) involved movement of the horse to another stable/carer should still be permitted.
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Anger management is not meant to be punishment.
 
eahotson said:
That pre and post testing plus support is to help that particular person with addiction problems that could cost him his life.It is good management practice.
We all know that dressage has its problems but when did you last see a dressage horse dragged into a ring with a blind folded on and the rider hitting it?Do you think anyone audience would find that acceptable?
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Well I've just watched one being repeatedly beaten in order to look fancy in a dressage arena about 30 seconds ago.

I dont get your point, genuinely don't get it. We blindfold and hit racehorses publicly, so CDJ et al repeatedly beating horses behind the scene as part of an overall training method that is abusive and cruel, is ok because its behind closed doors?
 
sport horse said:
I cannot believe the unwillingness to at least accept that she has 'paid the price' not only in her ban but also in the total loss of her career, the respect of her peers and the public, and also a devastating toll on her mental health. Whatever happened to 'be kind'? It certainly missed most of the posters on this thread. She has apologised and accepted how wrong she was, now she must have a second chance. Absolutely never a third chance and I am sure she will be watched over by all the vultures out there who have seemingly never done anything wrong.
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This. I do think people have to be given a second chance, would you advocate keeping all prisoners locked up for life?

I suspect what happened to her has made a lot of other people reconsider what they do (and less helpfully where) to avoid being in the same situation, and so has maybe done more good than realised. Can any of us honestly say we've never done anything we felt was wrong and later regretted it? I know I can't.

As long as her approach has changed then I wish her all the best for the future.
 
I'm Dun said:
Well I've just watched one being repeatedly beaten in order to look fancy in a dressage arena about 30 seconds ago.

I dont get your point, genuinely don't get it. We blindfold and hit racehorses publicly, so CDJ et al repeatedly beating horses behind the scene as part of an overall training method that is abusive and cruel, is ok because its behind closed doors?
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Was Charlotte responsible for that too.
 
No @eahotson anger management is not meant to be a punishment. It is 'treatment' for a 'behaviour or addiction' and as such is relevant to the crime of animal abuse.

It is a relevant and a suitable 'treatment' for cases like Helgstrand/CDJ in a similar way that Oisin Murphy is getting both attentive testing for alcohol/drug abuse and at the same time getting support counselling for his alcohol addiction.

Similarly people sent to prison are (supposed to) get rehabilitation to prevent them reoffending.

Abuse cases should merit punishment and also remedial training/treatment to prevent recurrence.
 
I'm Dun said:
yes, it was her in the video.
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I thought you meant someone else somewhere else.Well what Charlotte did was wrong but in my book at least ,it was better than taking a horse,blindfolding it,having two people dragging it from the front and two pushing it from behind while the jockey looked as though he was hitting it.To add to this pretty picture it was surrounded by shouting people.
 
eahotson said:
I thought you meant someone else somewhere else.Well what Charlotte did was wrong but in my book at least ,it was better than taking a horse,blindfolding it,having two people dragging it from the front and two pushing it from behind while the jockey looked as though he was hitting it.To add to this pretty picture it was surrounded by shouting people.
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At least part of people's issue with CDJ's return is that she is steeped in the systems (both the front-to-back training system and the overall industry) that produced that behaviour in her and others, and which was documented in Julie Taylor's book, which I believe you've read. She's shown no sign of wanting anything other than to regain her place in the industry. Therefore people are dubious and annoyed, and expect recidivism, if I may also jump on the prison analogy bandwagon. Racing obviously has its own problems but as a rule being tricky to get into the stalls is a bug, not a feature.
 
Burnttoast said:
At least part of people's issue with CDJ's return is that she is steeped in the systems (both the front-to-back training system and the overall industry) that produced that behaviour in her and others, and which was documented in Julie Taylor's book, which I believe you've read. She's shown no sign of wanting anything other than to regain her place in the industry. Therefore people are dubious and annoyed, and expect recidivism, if I may also jump on the prison analogy bandwagon. Racing obviously has its own problems but as a rule being tricky to get into the stalls is a bug, not a feature.
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So that treatment of that horse in racing was acceptable because it was tricky to get into a stall.?Is that right?Racing has its systems too.
I agree that the training in top class dressage can be poor but Charlotte is not responsible for all of it.
 
Nari said:
This. I do think people have to be given a second chance, would you advocate keeping all prisoners locked up for life?

I suspect what happened to her has made a lot of other people reconsider what they do (and less helpfully where) to avoid being in the same situation, and so has maybe done more good than realised. Can any of us honestly say we've never done anything we felt was wrong and later regretted it? I know I can't.

As long as her approach has changed then I wish her all the best for the future.
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Are you volunteering your horse to test if her approach has changed?
 
Nari said:
This. I do think people have to be given a second chance, would you advocate keeping all prisoners locked up for life?

I suspect what happened to her has made a lot of other people reconsider what they do (and less helpfully where) to avoid being in the same situation, and so has maybe done more good than realised. Can any of us honestly say we've never done anything we felt was wrong and later regretted it? I know I can't.

As long as her approach has changed then I wish her all the best for the future.
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I don't think she should be locked up for her crime, but nor do I think she should be able to just slot back in to her career without any consequences. In any other job, gross misconduct would see you immediately sacked, not just put on gardening leave when you were planning on being off anyway.
 
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meleeka said:
I don't think she should be locked up for her crime, but nor do I think she should be able to just slot back in to her career without any consequences. In any other job, gross misconduct would see you immediately sacked, not just put on gardening leave when you were planning on being off anyway.
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Exactly!!! Well said.
 
eahotson said:
So that treatment of that horse in racing was acceptable because it was tricky to get into a stall.?Is that right?Racing has its systems too.
I agree that the training in top class dressage can be poor but Charlotte is not responsible for all of it.
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No it isn't acceptable and my preference would be for horses not to be used competitively at all. But what I find particularly disturbing about dressage is that the majority of modern dressage training, the basic system, is based on compressing the horse by telling them to stop and go at the same time. It's this basic fact that's at the root of most of the terrible training outcomes we are seeing - horses that have decided not to go at all (Heath Ryan), horses that need to be literally driven into the contact (CDJ), horses that need to be made sore and frightened of the aids (lots of people both at high and lower levels), horses flying along off the spur yet with such pressure in their mouths that the blood supply is compromised - the basic system creates all these issues so we shouldn't be saying great, let's let her get on with doing more of that!

Vaguely pertaining to this entire debate is this recent article:

www.cambridge.org

“But my horse is well cared for”: A qualitative exploration of cognitive dissonance and enculturation in equestrian attitudes toward performance horses and their welfare | Animal Welfare | Cambridge Core

“But my horse is well cared for”: A qualitative exploration of cognitive dissonance and enculturation in equestrian attitudes toward performance horses and their welfare - Volume 34
www.cambridge.org www.cambridge.org
 
meleeka said:
I don't think she should be locked up for her crime, but nor do I think she should be able to just slot back in to her career without any consequences. In any other job, gross misconduct would see you immediately sacked, not just put on gardening leave when you were planning on being off anyway.
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Her reputation has been destroyed, so yes she was sacked in a sense. Even after being sacked you can get another job doing the same thing in the same industry.

Honestly I just don’t get why people can’t just let others move the heck on and stop beating them with a stick. I just hope all these people holding the stick have never made a mistake or chose the wrong path in their lives. Makes the whole thing seem a bit hypocritical IMO 👀
 
Burnttoast said:
No it isn't acceptable and my preference would be for horses not to be used competitively at all. But what I find particularly disturbing about dressage is that the majority of modern dressage training, the basic system, is based on compressing the horse by telling them to stop and go at the same time. It's this basic fact that's at the root of most of the terrible training outcomes we are seeing - horses that have decided not to go at all (Heath Ryan), horses that need to be literally driven into the contact (CDJ), horses that need to be made sore and frightened of the aids (lots of people both at high and lower levels), horses flying along off the spur yet with such pressure in their mouths that the blood supply is compromised - the basic system creates all these issues so we shouldn't be saying great, let's let her get on with doing more of that!

Vaguely pertaining to this entire debate is this recent article:

www.cambridge.org

“But my horse is well cared for”: A qualitative exploration of cognitive dissonance and enculturation in equestrian attitudes toward performance horses and their welfare | Animal Welfare | Cambridge Core

“But my horse is well cared for”: A qualitative exploration of cognitive dissonance and enculturation in equestrian attitudes toward performance horses and their welfare - Volume 34
www.cambridge.org www.cambridge.org
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I would agree with a lot of that.It is hideous but that's what the judges reward.Why I don’t know.On the other hand I was watching a low key dressage competition the other day and the horses looked relaxed and I didn't see any abuse.No one was competing above novice though.It was a BD comp.
A lot of people do get a lot of pleasure training their horses and going to competitions.I wouldn't want it to stop but the abuse must stop or horse sports will go the way of bear bathing for instance.
 
Roasted Chestnuts said:
Her reputation has been destroyed, so yes she was sacked in a sense. Even after being sacked you can get another job doing the same thing in the same industry.

Honestly I just don’t get why people can’t just let others move the heck on and stop beating them with a stick. I just hope all these people holding the stick have never made a mistake or chose the wrong path in their lives. Makes the whole thing seem a bit hypocritical IMO 👀
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Well when she shows some remorse for actually beating a horse with a stick, in fact multiple horses with multiple sticks and training other people how to hit horses with sticks, and proves shes using alternative methods then maybe people will stop beating her with a metaphorical stick.

If you are sacked for gross misconduct you will find it next to impossible to get another job, you damn certainly wouldnt be in the same job after a lovely holiday. But lets say you did get extremely lucky, if you repeated the same behaviour you'd be sacked again. But in this instance, she wasnt sacked, she was sent on gardening leave, and shes back, exactly where she was prior to this coming out, showing no remorse and using the same techniques, just hiding them better this time.
 
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