Debate for the rights and wrongs of racing

[SO1]

What is the average retirement age of a race horse. I know they start early?

I suppose rehoming is difficult if they retire due to injury people will be wary. Even if they retire due to being slow these are hot blooded competition horses than many leisure riders might not feel up to reschooling.

As we know the leisure market wants the ready made safe all rounder easy to handle. Even confident experienced riders who could take on a ex racehorse are in the market for the competitive safe all rounder. I presume there comes a point if the owner can't rehome as the supply is greater than demand and they don't want to pay for retirement livery or reschooling then they give up PTS.

I think perhaps in other equine sports perhaps owners are more likely to pay for retirement livery or if they have space at home take back the horse from the professional if they are not competing themselves to retire it at home.

 

[ponynutz]

I’m sure @Elf On A Shelf and @Gamebird

Also 2022 National was the worst since 2012, why? Ground? Quality of runners? Speed?

I do wonder this too. Why was it so bad this year? And could how bad it was have been prevented?

 

[teapot]

I have no doubt they are PTS pretty quickly. Question is did that many of your average leisure horses actually need to be PTS?
I'm OK they were PTS quickly, I am not OK that they needed to be PTS just to either provide entertainment or money.

4 horses died.

If we take the same number of leisure horses as were overall racing at Aintree did 4 of them die in the same 3 day time scale from heart attacks, pelvic injuries, head injuries and similar.

To play Devil’s advocate how many leisure horses don’t get pts when they should because too many people think it’s the worst possible thing to do, when it actually isn’t?

 

[paddy555]

To play Devil’s advocate how many leisure horses don’t get pts when they should because too many people think it’s the worst possible thing to do, when it actually isn’t?

don't get your question. Do you mean people are not putting down leisure horses who had heart attacks and was it head and pelvic injuries? I doubt there are many. I don't suppose any horse could move with those sort of injuries.

 

[SO1]

I think that is possibly not the reason it is probably because they love them so much they feel they can't bare the emotional pain of being without them so they try and hold out as long as possible same reasons for many cats and dogs really.

A lot of leisure horses have a job as an emotional crutch or companion to their owner. A different job to a racehorse but again may have welfare implications.

To play Devil’s advocate how many leisure horses don’t get pts when they should because too many people think it’s the worst possible thing to do, when it actually isn’t?

 

[Soap On A Rope]

I do wonder this too. Why was it so bad this year? And could how bad it was have been prevented?

Have a look at the size of the fences in the 1970/80s before "snowflakes" came along.....

 

[ponynutz]

Have a look at the size of the fences in the 1970/80s before "snowflakes" came along.....

Can't find anything online, were they bigger?
Not sure what you mean by snowflakes here?

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Can't find anything online, were they bigger?
Not sure what you mean by snowflakes here?

The fences were much bigger and stiffer. You had to jump them not skim through them. The winning times haven't changed much over the years but what has changed is the circuit times. The horses used to do the first circuit a full minute slower over the bigger fences. If you jumped clear a circuit you knew your horse could jump and so you raced the 2nd circuit. These days the jumps are much smaller and you can take the top 3ft off of them - it's just loose conifer tree branches. So horses no longer need to to be able to jump to get round. They complete both circuits in roughly the same time so they are going faster ever step of the way.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

What is the average retirement age of a race horse. I know they start early?

I suppose rehoming is difficult if they retire due to injury people will be wary. Even if they retire due to being slow these are hot blooded competition horses than many leisure riders might not feel up to reschooling.

As we know the leisure market wants the ready made safe all rounder easy to handle. Even confident experienced riders who could take on a ex racehorse are in the market for the competitive safe all rounder. I presume there comes a point if the owner can't rehome as the supply is greater than demand and they don't want to pay for retirement livery or reschooling then they give up PTS.

I think perhaps in other equine sports perhaps owners are more likely to pay for retirement livery or if they have space at home take back the horse from the professional if they are not competing themselves to retire it at home.

Retirement age depends on the code. Flat racers tend to retire from racing aged 6-8. Some go on for longer. The good ones get shipped off to stud at the end of their 4yo season. These horses will generally have been started as yearlings or 2yos.

Jumps horses retire at 10-12yo mostly. Again some go on longer. Rarely under rules but quite a few will do a couple of seasons point to pointing as safe conveyances to the next generation of jockeys. Mostly these horses won't have been broken in til they were 3 or 4yo.

As to rehoming - we have never failed to rehome a horse, including ones with injuries. Yes some have taken longer to find a home for than others but they do all go to good homes. We don't just punt them off to anyone. You would be surprised at just how many people want exracers. A lot of people still see them as the cheap option of getting a horse. And others want to tell all and sundry they have "rescued" a horse from racing.

 

[Fred66]

The fences were much bigger and stiffer. You had to jump them not skim through them. The winning times haven't changed much over the years but what has changed is the circuit times. The horses used to do the first circuit a full minute slower over the bigger fences. If you jumped clear a circuit you knew your horse could jump and so you raced the 2nd circuit. These days the jumps are much smaller and you can take the top 3ft off of them - it's just loose conifer tree branches. So horses no longer need to to be able to jump to get round. They complete both circuits in roughly the same time so they are going faster ever step of the way.

I seem to remember reading somewhere (quite a few years ago) that in attempt to make the course more jumpable they had inadvertently made it less safe as it enabled them to jump it faster and this was causing more injuries
Bechers used to have a fairly deep pronounced dip on landing on the rail side hence why many used to take it wide, this has been made significantly shallower and less pronounced so more take the shorter route.

 

[ycbm]

What is the average retirement age of a race horse. I know they start early?

Regarding starting, there are two completely different sets. The ones who start as flat racers will generally be backed in time to race when they have just turned 2 years old ?

The horses destined only ever to jump can be seen sold as "stores" at the bloodstock auctions and my experience of those auctions is that some of those are unbroken 5 year olds (especially if they are very big), and most are 4 year olds who are either unbroken or they have been backed and quietly ridden away but done little hard work.

ETA I understand that these days a majority (?) of hurdlers are flat racers who were too slow to win on the flat, rather than being bred specifically to jump race. In terms of buying one, those are the ones I'd be least happy to buy and I only ever bought flat racers at 3 or 4 years old.
.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Yes quite a lot of hurdles come off the flat but the majority aren't. All racehorses start off on the flat whether it be flat raced or bumpers (1m6f-2m flat races for national hunt horses) or they off over hurdles before they go chasing in their 2nd or 3rd season. The exception being point to pointers who jump chase fences straight away but ptp fences are smaller. Bigger than hurdles but smaller than regulation chase fences.

Red Run started off in flat races and indeed won a 5 or 6 furling sprint in his youth.

 

[ycbm]

All racehorses start off on the flat whether it be flat raced or bumpers

I didn't know that, my involvement with jumpers was all through point to point friends.

Is there a reason they run horses that have been bred to jump on the flat first? It doesn't outwardly seem any more logical than competing a showjumper in a Prelim dressage ?

 

[humblepie]

Elf will know more than me but it gives the horse the racecourse experience and education. I suppose it could also be a sales opportunity as could catch someone’s eye. The championship bumper at Cheltenham is prestigious.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I didn't know that, my involvement with jumpers was all through point to point friends.

Is there a reason they run horses that have been bred to jump on the flat first? It doesn't outwardly seem any more logical than competing a showjumper in a Prelim dressage ?

Bumpers are just education really. They don't have starting stalls so it is your usual jump racing tape start and it is pretty much most horses first experience of galloping in a big group as well as at the races. Most people see it as a racecourse gallop with some prize money at the end and can also be used to gauge how fit the horse is. These are horses that have never ran before really so you might think they are fitter than they are at home. The only horses that can run in Bumpers are horses that have never run under rules before. Ptp doesn't count. You can run in 4 normal bumpers and 2 Champion bumpers before you have to go hurdling or chasing. Juvenile Bumpers are for 3yo's and they don't appear until late October/November time and are run over 1mile 6furlongs. 4-6yo's can run in normal Bumpers which are 2miles.

Obviously flat horses start on the flat and stay on the flat with their starting stalls.

 

[Marigold4]

Question for those in the racing industry. Just thinking about the 2 year olds who race. Do they continue to race in later years or just as 2 year olds? What happens to the 2 year olds that race?

 

[humblepie]

Question for those in the racing industry. Just thinking about the 2 year olds who race. Do they continue to race in later years or just as 2 year olds? What happens to the 2 year olds that race?

Totally depends - may race once show nothing be retired. Need at least three runs for a handicap rating. Some will keep going as flat horses whether successful or not others may switch to hurdling or just be retired. My current one raced 32 times from the age of 2 - 8. He was a successful horse and lightly campaigned aimed at particular races.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Question for those in the racing industry. Just thinking about the 2 year olds who race. Do they continue to race in later years or just as 2 year olds? What happens to the 2 year olds that race?

Depends on how good they are. Some will have 2 or 3 runs to get a handicap mark then be put away for their 3yo year. Some will race half a dozen times. Some will only race once. The good ones will be saved for the Pattern races as 3yo's. Some show absolutely nothing and get retired. Some are trained as 2yo's but deemed to weak to run so they are turned away to mature and will come back as a stronger 3yo to race then. Not all flat horses run at 2yo, more are left for the following season than run as a 2yo.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

The thing I really noticed this year was the sheer amount of brush that was dislodged at every jump. I was struggling to see the horses through the clouds of it. That in itself didn't seem very safe to me.

 

[tristar]

it needs to stop now

also a quick decision about pts of injured horses would never have anything to do with the fact they need to clear the course for the next race, would it?

some of those jockeys are appalling riders, and the likes of gordon elliot will bring the castle tumbling down in the end

to send out the best and fittest horses in races and 4 die is proof enough and all taking part from grooms to vets should examine their part in enabling this barbarism to continue

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Races have been delayed for over an hour before to allow a horse that is on course to receive medical treatment. So no we don't just bump them off for the sake of saving time. The horses always come first.

 

[ponynutz]

The fences were much bigger and stiffer. You had to jump them not skim through them. The winning times haven't changed much over the years but what has changed is the circuit times. The horses used to do the first circuit a full minute slower over the bigger fences. If you jumped clear a circuit you knew your horse could jump and so you raced the 2nd circuit. These days the jumps are much smaller and you can take the top 3ft off of them - it's just loose conifer tree branches. So horses no longer need to to be able to jump to get round. They complete both circuits in roughly the same time so they are going faster ever step of the way.

Thanks elf! (Sorry to quote you for my reply to everyone but wanted to thank you for explaining).

Seems then has actually become less safe even though height has been taken off. Clarkson's "speed and power" can't be applied to horses ?.

On a serious note, I also noticed a lot of brush coming off this year and horses seemingly either tripping on it upon landing and that taking them out or tripping and making a fall much worse.

Not to push on the point but I see no sense for the word "snowflake" here ... in fact it doesn't seem to apply much at all. If anything the younger generation have made things much worse for the poor horses here!

 

[Tiddlypom]

Whilst I'm no longer a racing fan at all, I will state that the veterinary care that the horses at Aintree get is exemplary. I didn't watch any racing from Aintree this year, but I can usually spot and recognise certain very well regarded local vets out on course and in the after race pull up and cool down areas, including ones from my own equine vet practice. There is no way that any of them would be bustled into a rushed PTS decision out on course just to prevent a hold up to the next race.

If an injured horse makes it alive to Leahurst, it will get state of the art care.

I do remember, though, walking across the equine yard at Leahurst after Dark Ivy's National ? with someone who just had a peek through the PM room door to see if there was a large grey cadaver awaiting attention.

That was the start of me falling out of racing, culminating with According to Pete's death many years later in 2012.

 

[Clodagh]

I’m dipping in and out here but as regards HK. My grandpa bred 6 horses in his life. One of those won at Royal Ascot. Pretty amazing all round. He was offered a lot of money to sell him to HK but said never would a horse he had any dealings with go there.
And FWIW all his horses had a long and happy retirement.
I know his was a hobby and not a business, which helped his decision making.
I dislike the GN. Seeing the horses jump the Chair like it’s a Fakenham hurdle, what’s the point. I don’t like long distance staying chases full stop and the GN is the worst.

 

[ycbm]

Races have been delayed for over an hour before to allow a horse that is on course to receive medical treatment. So no we don't just bump them off for the sake of saving time. The horses always come first.

I understand what you're saying, and the vet care is first rate, but what comes first is sometimes the monetary value of the horse, especially if it's a very valuable stallion. There have been some very dubious, imo, decisions made to try save horses for their future earning potential.

ETA it's not restricted to racing. The last top class show jumping I watched live, a horse broke its leg. It was flapping in the breeze. That horse was taken to a vet hospital before it was euthanized.

 

[j1ffy]

I believe Hong Kong have one of the biggest racing industries in the world, and none of their horses are ever turned out, I personally think its very sad but someone said to me they are 'treated better than my horses' because they have their air conditioned stables and are exercised daily and go on the walker everyday... id personally take turnout over air conditioned stables and a horse walker any day

HK's racing industry is interesting. As Elf said, all the horses are imported either by owners / trainers or by the Hong Kong Jockey Club (HKJC) and not just from Australia - I had two loan horses during my time there, one was from South Africa and one from Ireland. When racing they are stabled near the racecourse at Sha Tin and do all their training there...and always in the same direction so they're all pretty wonky when they retire. If they are racing at Happy Valley on HK island itself they are trucked in but only stay for a short time as stables are limited so the horses for the early races are taken over, then go home and horses for the later races are taken. There are 'spelling' facilities for horses that are rehabbing injuries or just need a break.

On retirement from racing they all go to an assessment facility and I believe they become property of the HKJC. They spend time being assessed physically and for temperament and are then re-homed appropriately. Some go to rehoming centres abroad, I know of a place in NZ that rehomes them, some go to be police horses (yes, really!) and a lot go to equestrian centres in mainland China or HK. If they are not suitable to be riding horses they are PTS. All the riding schools in HK have ex-racehorses hence me having a couple on loan. Only a couple of RS have any turnout facilities, horses at my yard were turned out in an arena a few times a week but otherwise were stabled.

HKJC runs all the betting in HK as well as the racing itself. They're a not-for-profit organisation so all surplus is ploughed into charitable causes around HK - you see their emblem all over the place. An interesting fact is that they estimate that income tax would need to be 7% higher in HK if racing stopped!

 

[humblepie]

Jiffy - that is very interesting. Years ago at the livery yard I was at, there was an ex Hong Kong race horse that the owner had brought back to the UK with them (the racing owner who came back to the UK). I think the Hong Kong Jockey Club do a lot that is not racing related as well.

 

[Clodagh]

It would be much better for racing if the tote had more power. And if the off shore betting companies paid something for their sport.
Mind you betting ads should be banned.

 

[Fred66]

I understand what you're saying, and the vet care is first rate, but what comes first is sometimes the monetary value of the horse, especially if it's a very valuable stallion. There have been some very dubious, imo, decisions made to try save horses for their future earning potential.

ETA it's not restricted to racing. The last top class show jumping I watched live, a horse broke its leg. It was flapping in the breeze. That horse was taken to a vet hospital before it was euthanized.

The majority of NH races are geldings or mares, there are very few stallion. So from your point earlier in the thread that NH generates an increased likelihood of serious injury resulting in death then I would imagine these instances would be extremely rare in racing

 

[sakura]

Have a look at the size of the fences in the 1970/80s before "snowflakes" came along.....

Are you suggesting that people didn't care about the welfare of horses back in the 70s/80s?