Debate for the rights and wrongs of racing

[Getbackboys]

paddi22 - i like your post and your concern and i am with you all the way having seen it with my own eyes and speaking up when i saw it, but you need to remember those employed are just the staff, they have no authority to go and complain and saying something could make their daily grind even harder, so they choose to look the other way and hope it stops.

those at the top need to make the change, walk around see whats going on, horses with sore mouths do follow up, whose been riding the horse, have they altered the bridle shorter on one side in the belief the horse will be easier to stop, no it wont it will fight the rider more, the riders need to be educated about things like this and over tight girlths and yanking horses with a bridle on when leading them, being surprised when told there is only 5mm skin between that metal bit and the jaw bone. leading a horse wile holding both reins over its neck so the nutcracker is pushing up into the roof of its mouth causing pain and the rider/leader cant understand why is is resisting and so they pull harder, drives me up the wall.

thats all from me for now - enjoy

 

[Orangehorse]

A racehorse is essentially a working animal, not a pet - although some become pets and I the grooms that look after them get very fond of them because they are with them every day.

The trainer and the owner are in it for the money, but that doesn't mean that they don't care for the horses or love horses and spend hours worrying over them and wanting to do the right thing.

But in the end it is the job of a racehorse to go out there and run in a race. That is what they have been bred for and what they are made for.

I don't know why someone thought it was wrong for Blaklion to run, he has completed before, he finished this time and he won a race earlier in the season.

 

[paddi22]

racehorses never asked to bred or to be put into that system.

The majority of owners and trainers quickly stop worrying and loving those horses once they are no use, or out of their yards. the slaughterhouses don't have queues of owners and trainers wailing at those horses being pts. I've met and talked to owners and trainers of horses we have that were in their yards, and yes, they wish the horses well, but to say they genuinely care for them or what happens to them would be incorrect. If you are making money or prestige off any object, you care about that object once it is useful. same with any system where people profit from animals through a business.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

Good horse people have happy horses, and sometimes they have dead horses.

This, a thousand times!

We don't sell on, so every horse we have ends up as a dead horse, eventually. As an old farmer friend used to say 'If you have livestock, you will have deadstock'. Some of our horses have died far too young, others have lived into a healthy very old age (30s)
Our first horse died aged 18 after 8 yrs with us, as a light 'retirement' hacking job, after earning his living as a driver who did a bit p/t in the RS in winter. You might have thought that his working life contributed to his teenaged death but no, it was a field accident.

 

[Getbackboys]

only those of value will return to Aus, the jockey club will keep a few for their equestrian ventures and the others, lets just say horses dont retire in HK. this was told to me by a lady who was from HK and was working in racing so from the horses mouth so to speak.

abbatoirs horses can smell death, they communicate with each other thats how they survive the fear from the one going in to the kill shute has already sent his sense of fear back to the others waiting in line to suffer the same fate. those that choose to try and take flight do not die peacefully sadly.

 

[Burnttoast]

But in the end it is the job of a racehorse to go out there and run in a race. That is what they have been bred for and what they are made for.

Masterly use of the passive voice there. We bred them and made them to carry out a function for us. Unfortunately people didn't bother to breed out their physiology and instincts at the same time so that they might actually suit the management imposed on them. Saying horses have jobs is ridiculous. Like they rocked up for an interview. Their existence and what happens to them is all on us, but we don't have to suffer the injuries, the lack of freedom, the utterly unnatural lifestyle. The horses have to put up with that stuff. (And that does apply more widely than racing, but is particularly acute in racing in general.)

 

[ponynutz]

I ‘think’ that horses that suffer a catastrophic injury whilst racing are pumping adrenaline and pain levels are minimal.

Does that make it okay?
Also not sure anyone on here who is anti racer has refused to listen or acknowledge any pro racer's views, although I am sure there are those that do.

RE: horses being bred to do a job... again does that mean that everything they endure is okay? (given at the end of the day theyre animals and have no choice).

 

[sakura]

A racehorse is essentially a working animal, not a pet - although some become pets and I the grooms that look after them get very fond of them because they are with them every day.

The trainer and the owner are in it for the money, but that doesn't mean that they don't care for the horses or love horses and spend hours worrying over them and wanting to do the right thing.

But in the end it is the job of a racehorse to go out there and run in a race. That is what they have been bred for and what they are made for.

I don't know why someone thought it was wrong for Blaklion to run, he has completed before, he finished this time and he won a race earlier in the season.

That is all human choice, not the horses. The only "job" any horse actually has is to be a horse. Anything else is what we have decided their purpose to be. Sure, many seem to enjoy the work they're asked to do, but that doesn't remove the moral questions behind the industry.

This then becomes a much bigger conversation on the ethics of using animals for financial gain and entertainment, but in this case we're talking about racing.

 

[TPO]

One big pro is the money it brings to equine health research.

Agreed, but at what cost to the horses in racing/training?

Does the means justify the end?

I'm sure most of us have benefitted from this in one way or another

"Good horse people have happy horses, and sometimes they have dead horses"

And sometimes they take pictures sitting on dead racehorses while giving the fingers...?

 

[humblepie]

Re Blaklion. He had won this year and completed the GN. How is the trainer having the expertise to prepare, train, and manage a 13 year old racehorse different to an event rider with a horse in its teens competing the Olympics perhaps in a climate alien to the horse?

 

[Fred66]

Agreed, but at what cost to the horses in racing/training?

Does the means justify the end?

I'm sure most of us have benefitted from this in one way or another

"Good horse people have happy horses, and sometimes they have dead horses"

And sometimes they take pictures sitting on dead racehorses while giving the fingers...?

Whilst this was not pleasant and certainly impacted on his reputation it was not in itself a welfare issue.
Would it have made me think twice about sending a horse to him then yes definitely

 

[TPO]

Whilst this was not pleasant and certainly impacted on his reputation it was not in itself a welfare issue.
Would it have made me think twice about sending a horse to him then yes definitely

Fair points but *I* feel it's a reflection on how racehorses are viewed and valued. I'm pretty sure none of us "haters", once we finally get out of our beds, would be sitting on any of our dead horses because we did care for and respect them.

 

[Gallop_Away]

To be fair the racing world reacted to that photo with just as much disgust and contempt as the rest of the world (and rightly so).

 

[ponynutz]

To be fair the racing world reacted to that photo with just as much disgust and contempt as the rest of the world (and rightly so).

Good! As they should! Can they react to the rest of what goes on that way now too?

 

[sakura]

Whilst this was not pleasant and certainly impacted on his reputation it was not in itself a welfare issue.
Would it have made me think twice about sending a horse to him then yes definitely

I would argue that it is a sign of welfare issues. It suggests to me, a mere leisure horse owner, that the trainer in question is probably more likely to see the horses under their care as a commodity rather than a living, feeling animal.

 

[Fred66]

I would argue that it is a sign of welfare issues. It suggests to me, a mere leisure horse owner, that the trainer in question is probably more likely to see the horses under their care as a commodity rather than a living, feeling animal.

From a purely welfare POV what they view them as is largely irrelevant. If someone values something because of its worth to them as an asset and treats it well because they want to ensure it gives best return then this is better than someone loving their horse but through ignorance not caring for it properly.

 

[ycbm]

To be fair the racing world reacted to that photo with just as much disgust and contempt as the rest of the world (and rightly so).

Mmm, sort of. I got the impression that about 50% of the racing reaction was anger that he had done something so stupid to bring racing into disrepute, not anger that he disrespected a dead horse.
.

 

[milliepops]

although it was hopefully an isolated incident, the sitting on the dead horse thing is at complete odds with the "treated like kings" and all "stable staff love the horses like their own" narrative

it's yet more bad optics

 

[Gallop_Away]

Mmm, sort of. I got the impression that about 50% of the racing reaction was anger that he had done something so stupid to bring racing into disrepute, not anger that he disrespected a dead horse.
.

My interpretation was that it was both to be honest. Either way I think he got off lightly considering, which is a great shame. I personally wouldn't send a rocking horse to be trained by him after THAT photo

 

[sakura]

From a purely welfare POV what they view them as is largely irrelevant. If someone values something because of its worth to them as an asset and treats it well because they want to ensure it gives best return then this is better than someone loving their horse but through ignorance not caring for it properly.

I get what you’re saying, but I think that’s where a lot of the issues with racing in particular come from, and so I don’t think it is largely irrelevant.

 

[paddy555]

A racehorse is essentially a working animal, not a pet - although some become pets and I the grooms that look after them get very fond of them because they are with them every day.

The trainer and the owner are in it for the money, but that doesn't mean that they don't care for the horses or love horses and spend hours worrying over them and wanting to do the right thing.

But in the end it is the job of a racehorse to go out there and run in a race. That is what they have been bred for and what they are made for.

.

I agree by virtue of what they do they are working animals and they are there to make money but should they be?

In the past horses were working animals. They brought in the harvest or transported the milk for example because there was no other way. Doing those things was not a luxury, it was a necessity for basic living.
They had a hard life and some a miserable life but to some extent there was justification that they were needed.

Running a race is not a necessity. It is done purely for the pleasure of people and to make money for some.

of course they spend hours worrying over them and wanting to do the right thing. The aim is for the horse to win.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Are you with all your experience and responsibilities not being paid above the NMW rate, Elf?

?????? about 3p more.

 

[Gingerwitch]

although it was hopefully an isolated incident, the sitting on the dead horse thing is at complete odds with the "treated like kings" and all "stable staff love the horses like their own" narrative

it's yet more bad optics

Whilst I do not agree with racing, you cannot judge this person as anything more than an obnoxious oaf and no matter what career he had chosen he would have been just the same. He just became news for all the wrong reasons. X

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I would argue that it is a sign of welfare issues. It suggests to me, a mere leisure horse owner, that the trainer in question is probably more likely to see the horses under their care as a commodity rather than a living, feeling animal.

Bit it *wasn't*a living breathing animal by that stage. The trainer was an idiot and i wouldn't have sent any animal to him to be looked after, he certainly did his reputation no good but the horse knew nothing at all about it by that stage.

Have you seen a horse after it was pts?

 

[Alwaysmoretoknow]

Ok so this is going to be a bit muddled but....

I dislike the GN - too many runners over a too challenging course likely to create falls with too few horses really properly able for the challenge and entered for their owners ego without any real chance of winning or completing.

The whiff of the 'Circus Maximus' about it with hoards of baying punters perhaps attracted by the danger element as well as it's renown?

In racing generally the over breeding and resulting wastage of horses not good or sound enough.

The management and training of potential racehorses (too young and too 'un-natural') to equip them for a potential career out of racing with the health, soundness and compromised mental health issues associated with such management (when we do it to non-neurotypical people in institutions it is considered abuse).

The lack of planning /care of where the 'disgards' are going to go if they fail to make the grade due to lack of talent or physical/mental robustness?

Other horse sports also have their challenges with welfare issues - endurance seems particularly horrific currently.

I also get a bit twitchy about the seeming need to build XC courses to be over-challenging and too risky.

Surely we can find a way to show how amazing a horse/rider partnership can be without putting our horse partners at unnecessary risk?

 

[Tiddlypom]

?????? about 3p more.

That's ridiculous . You are being used, no wonder you want out.

 

[sakura]

Bit it *wasn't*a living breathing animal by that stage. The trainer was an idiot and i wouldn't have sent any animal to him to be looked after, he certainly did his reputation no good but the horse knew nothing at all about it by that stage.

Have you seen a horse after it was pts?

Unfortunately, yes. And I certainly didn’t sit on them and pose for a photo. It’s not about what the horse feels at that point, obviously it’s dead. It’s fundamentally a greater question of how the trainer views the horses when they are no longer of any financial use to them

 

[MagicMelon]

I can't think of any rights....

At a push the money from/in racing used to try to fix broken racehorses filters down to help our "pets".

Wrongs:

Intensive breeding
Wastage
How they are kept
Lack of forage
Fed high starch feeds that their digestive system isn't designed for
Started <2yrs old
In training/racing before they've matured
Shod before their hooves have developed
Lives endangered to make money for people
Lives endangered for entertainment
"Socked in the mouth" by stable staff in a mood as just one example of the "love" some staff have for them.

Absolutely none of it is for the benefit of the horse/horses. It's just man doing what man always has to do and try to have the "best" at any cost.

This is also my opinion. I disagree massively with racing. I also disagree with how many eventers/dressage etc. horses are kept too - hate when people say they live a life of luxury, luxury for a horse is not being stabled the vast majority of the time, clipped out with expensive rugs on etc. I firmly believe the basic right of any horse should be outside eating grass with other horses. Yes, morally I do question what I do with horses. I event, show jump etc. but I guess I feel that Im giving them as natural a life as possible and when riding I minimise strong tack, dont carry a whip or wear spurs. The overuse of the whip in racing is horrific, you wouldnt be allowed to do that in any other disipline so how on earth should they get away with it? Some of the public only support it because ultimately they are clueless and purely view it as entertainment.

 

[teapot]

I’m sure @Elf On A Shelf and @Gamebird will correct me if I’m wrong, but from a welfare/suffering point of view, I’ve always got the impression horses with irreparable injuries will be/are humanely put out of their misery on course far quicker than your average leisure horse would be?

From a welfare/suffering point of view I’m ok with that. Am I okay at the numbers involved that end up in that situation I don’t know… ?

Also 2022 National was the worst since 2012, why? Ground? Quality of runners? Speed?

 

[paddy555]

I’m sure @Elf On A Shelf and @Gamebird will correct me if I’m wrong, but from a welfare/suffering point of view, I’ve always got the impression horses with irreparable injuries will be/are humanely put out of their misery on course far quicker than your average leisure horse would be?

From a welfare/suffering point of view I’m ok with that. Am I okay at the numbers involved that end up in that situation I don’t know… ?

Also 2022 National was the worst since 2012, why? Ground? Quality of runners? Speed?

I have no doubt they are PTS pretty quickly. Question is did that many of your average leisure horses actually need to be PTS?
I'm OK they were PTS quickly, I am not OK that they needed to be PTS just to either provide entertainment or money.

4 horses died.

If we take the same number of leisure horses as were overall racing at Aintree did 4 of them die in the same 3 day time scale from heart attacks, pelvic injuries, head injuries and similar.