Debate for the rights and wrongs of racing

[Burnerbee]

I’ve watched racing all my life and have become very uncomfortable with it. Members of my family worked in National Hunt so I was brought up to believe it was beyond reproach…

But now I see it, like, livestock farming is not necessary: it happens because humans like it. Simple as. If you’d said this to me twenty years ago I’d have argued that of course it’s necessary, the horses wouldn’t exist if it were not for racing and oh wouldn’t that be awful. No.

They wouldn‘t exist and they wouldn’t suffer either. They exist so people can bet (generally the less well off) and the rich can feel rich. You might disagree with that last bit. Or all of it. I don’t mind.

 

[sasquatch]

It's statistically easy and imo valid to compare deaths on the course between NH racing and BE cross country, which is probably is nearest equivalent.

The difference is very stark.

I don't belive BE would last out one season if death rates on the course came anywhere close to what is accepted as unavoidable in NH racing.
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It’s actually very hard to find information on eventing horse deaths, unless you mean at top level competition. Eventing horse deaths rarely make front page news outside of equestrian publications. I don’t remember there being much coverage of the horse who died at the Olympics outside of horse-related media. Until eventing has the same regulation and financial backing as racing does at all levels, these statistics will be hard to find.

Racing is able to provide statistics and numbers, including horses who have died in training. Eventing relies solely on the individual rider to report these injuries during training. Have a quick google for eventing horse deaths, there is no web page or even a list of all the horses who have died in eventing-related accidents. You can easily find a list of horses who’ve died in the GN since it’s creation on the Wikipedia page, yet the Wikipedia page for Badminton doesn’t include a list of all horses who have died during or after competition since the creation of the event. The information is just not as readily available as it is for racing. Therefore, being able to compare the statistics will take someone with a lot of time and willing to put the effort in to trawl the internet for reports and records of all eventing deaths that have happened during competition as well as in training, as that’s at least how racehorse deaths are recorded for HRI, where any death of a horse that is registered with HRI is recorded (including, as I have said, colic, unraced horses in training etc.)

I would say Team Chasing is probably closer to NH racing than eventing, and again, trying to find statistics on team chasing will probably be even harder than eventing.

 

[ycbm]

Racing is able to provide statistics and numbers, including horses who have died in training.

Racing doesn't seem to be providing those statistics in any easy to find place any more. The youngest figures I can find are 5 years old, and they are mixing up all on course racing deaths so you can't split out NH racing to find out whether the figure of 1 in 250 stats dies on course, that was published about 10 years ago by the BHA, stands or if that has improved and by how much.

From the download I pointed to above, you can roughly make our that of all racing, flat and NH, 2 in a thousand starters die on course. 1 in 500. It looks like the NH deaths are about twice the flat deaths, so a guess at 1 in 300 seems not unreasonable.

But why aren't those figures more clear and easy to find?

And not forgetting that those figures don't include the horses put down back at home after assessment there.

Have a quick google for eventing horse deaths, there is no web page or even a list of all the horses who have died in eventing-related accidents.

On course deaths are pretty rare, as anyone involved day to day with horse social media knows. If the numbers were anything like racing, no doubt the pressure group that maintains the register I've pointed to would have an eventing one. Except they wouldn't need to, because if BE killed one in 300 starters and one horse died at every weekend of cross country competition, I'm sure it would stop.

The level of denial that NH racing is far more dangerous a sport for horses to participate in than any other is really telling on this thread. Support racing by all means if it's a sport you love and believe in, but for goodness sake have the honesty to own the death rates.
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Edited to correct spelling.

 

[ponynutz]

As others have said the level of whip use and deaths is overwhelming and has always made me very uncomfortable.

I also feel that when it comes to deaths in other sports (most relevant I think here is eventing/XC given it's similarities) it is an accident and more of a rarity. Also more things are put into place I feel in eventing (correct me if I'm horribly wrong here) for example the fact that if pushed hard enough most XC fences will collapse to try and avoid the worst of accidents.

I do think there is a problem with all disciplines though to a certain degree... the sheer amount of dressage horses I see who are tense and behind the vertical receiving very high marks and the overuse of whips in show jumping (this one applies more to things I see in local and smaller shows with mainly kids to be perfectly honest, especially in things like POYS and HOYS) are just a couple that come to mind.

I think what separates racing is how popular it is with the general public and how much money it makes that means these things will always be essentially let go by the people who benefit from it.

Also think there are definitely some examples of good eggs who genuinely love their horses and the sport as it SHOULD be however it's hard to get away from what is accepted (not by us anti-racers) at the really high levels. If you have enough pressure on you to win and at the last second someone comes up behind you and overtakes purely because they're whipping the poor thing I feel like competitiveness and pressure to win the prize and potentially avoiding overwhelming shame of losing would mean people could be inclined to mimic that behaviour and start pushing their own horse... i.e. use the whip themselves.

At a push I'd say I could put up with flat racing... I mean who in the living hell came up with brush fences that high going full pelt on an animal that can make it 30mph+? It's like adding swinging knives to a tightrope competition in my eyes.

 

[SO1]

Racing is pretty much 100% professional riders and commercial. I don't know if any jockeys own horses they compete on.

The other equine sports do have people at the top level who own and compete their own horses.

I think for the average horse owner racing is very far removed from their every day experience. The Olympic horse most rider can have a go at the low levels racing is not something you can do unaffiliated at local level.

I think because racing is so commercial the horses are more likely to be treated as disposable commodities. They have fairly short careers, rehoming is tricky, school masters in other disciplines have value teaching people the ropes at lower levels. A school master race horse has probably little use in the amateur market.

Horses that won't make the top in other equine sport horses can probably find an amateur home with someone wanting to compete at a lower level.

Race horses are hard to rehome as you need to retrain them and also they are used to kept very differently to most leisure horses so they need to adjust to a different lifestyle. The owners perhaps are less invested in rehoming or retiring them if they don't ride themselves or the horse is syndicated.

I do think it is sad that they are thought of as disposable. I can see why it happens though as owners may feel better to PTS than have the responsibility or hassle of trying to rehome especially owners who know nothing about horses and don't need the money from selling the horse.

For me it is the lack of turnout with other horses which bothers me they probably have little pleasure in their lives. This applies to any sports horse kept the same way.

Death whilst racing I think is a red herring because it is in the public eye. Many horses sadly die young due to human interventions we just don't see it on tv. These are catastrophic deaths rather than a result of chronic conditions.

I don't know the average age of retirement of a race horse but I expect it is a lot earlier than those in other disciplines. If you are racehorse owner maybe your racehorse might if you are lucky retire perhaps at 10 whereas other sports horse you may still be competitive in thier early teens so you don't have to fund so many years of retirement or can be more easily rehomed without retraining.

 

[LEC]

I was at a fun ride yesterday - overweight riders in saddles too small, bilateral hind lameness, overweight horses, underweight horses with no topline. Leisure industry is no better than racing and shouldn’t be throwing stones IMO. All should do better.

i have no issue with racing.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

The whataboutery is deflection. Of course there are issues anywhere a horse is used for sport-leisure or otherwise. The discussion though is about racing, an industry that exists to make money through betting on the fastest animal that moment and how his affects animal welfare.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Racing exists purely so that the betting industry can make vast profits out of human misery. The horses are merely tools of the trade. Let's not pretend that many in racing actually care about the horses except wrt the financial return they can get from them.

The usual whatabouteries are being posted up to try to deflect the discussion away from racing.

 

[Goldenstar]

I am not seeking to deflect discussion from racing it’s not being a whatabouteries to say all areas of horse use have issues with welfare and that definitely includes the appalling care metered out to many leisure horses .

 

[Gallop_Away]

*sigh* it is not about whataboutery at all, but the hypocrisy of the equine world where people are prepared to condemn racing without acknowledging the failings across the world of equestrian sports in general.

Also I have to say Tiddly I couldn't disagree with this comment more, and is frankly quite insulting to those who work in the industry

Let's not pretend that many in racing actually care about the horses except wrt the financial return they can get from them.

 

[ycbm]

*sigh* it is not about whataboutery at all, but the hypocrisy of the equine world where people are prepared to condemn racing without acknowledging the failings across the world of equestrian sports in general.

Those faults are acknowledged and criticised constantly on this forum and nobody who has criticised racing has denied them.

Two wrongs don't make a right.
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[TPO]

It is whatabouttery

There have been plenty of threads about dressage (breeding and producing) and leisure horses (weights of horses and riders, fitness or lack of, how easy got horses are by people with little to no clue, etc)

This is a thread about racing. I don't see how it's OK that X happens in racing because Victoria* has a horse that she can't afford vet/physio/farrier/saddle fitter for and she's too heavy for the horse/ unfit horse in poor condition and she doesn't fit into her saddle. What happens in the leisure industry is irrelevant to this thread which is solely about racing.

*made up and apologies to any Victoria's that feel targeted

 

[Gallop_Away]

Those faults are acknowledged and criticised constantly on this forum and nobody who has criticised racing has denied them.

Two wrongs don't make a right.
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No it certainly does not make it right and I don't think anyone is trying to justify the failings of the racing industry by using the failings in other equestrian sports (myself and Elf have clearly said that there are issues with racing). However it is relevant to this discussion imo, to point out that there are many issues that affect many equestrian sports, not just racing. If you want to see racing banned, then I'm sorry but you also need to look at other equestrian pursuits and their failings, as some of those issues are not just unique to racing.

It's incredibly frustrating on this forum when someone attempts to offer a wider perspective of the issue, those who don't want to hear it simply scream "oh that's just whataboutery" instead of engaging in further discussion. I would argue that is far greater deflection tactic than pointing out issues with the wider equestrian world in general.

 

[ycbm]

No it certainly does not make it right, but it is relevant to this discussion imo, to point out that there are many issues that affect many equestrian sports, not just racing.

But it is acknowledged, month in month out, on other threads. This thread is about racing.

If you want to see racing banned

I don't. Personally, all I want at the moment is for it to acknowledge its problems in the way the horses are bred, kept, used, disposed of and own the NH deaths rates, even if the answer given is they died doing what they loved and you find that acceptable.

So far nobody has said that last one, everyone has simply denied that the deaths are exceptional in horse sport.,

It's incredibly frustrating on this forum when someone attempts to offer a wider perspective of the issue, those who don't want to hear it simply scream "oh that's just whataboutery" instead of engaging in further discussion. I would argue that is far greater deflection tactic than pointing out issues with the wider equestrian world in general.

You're free to start yet another thread to add to the many which discuss cruelty in the horse world. This one was started to discuss racing and bringing in the other activities without answering the questions about racing is deflection.
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[Meowy Catkin]

In this day and age of organisations such as PETA I don't think that looking at equestrianism as a whole is a bad thing. Looking at the whole variety of human/horse interactions and improving welfare across the board is essential IMO.

I think that this dystopic vision they have of huge numbers of human beings with no pets or contact with other species is horrific.

If equestrianism can tackle the worst aspects that it contains, it becomes much easier to defend to non-horsey members of the public. EG, this racing surface has the most fatalities, so we'll stop using it or this tail mutilation has no benefit for the horse, lets make it illegal. Even just adhering to the five freedoms would be a great start.

 

[piebaldproblems]

If 90% of the argument why racing is good is that everything else is worse, then it’s not good is it? Imagine if I posted saying I had mugged someone, but upon being told I’m a criminal, I pointed out how many murderers there are so clearly I’m innocent.

 

[fankino04]

But shouldn't we look at how to get a better reporting system in place for deaths in leisure horses and other equestrian sports? At least then fair comparisons came be made and if racing is found to be more dangerous to the horse then its easier to bring a case to reform it?

 

[SO1]

It is not the dangerousness that is the issue for me, hacking out has become dangerous due to traffic and general business in many parts of the country.

It is the quality of life that is quite poor with no turnout for most especially at a young age when 2 and 3 year olds should be out playing with other youngsters not being intensively trained. Horses that get turnout are less likely to get soft tissue injuries.

But shouldn't we look at how to get a better reporting system in place for deaths in leisure horses and other equestrian sports? At least then fair comparisons came be made and if racing is found to be more dangerous to the horse then its easier to bring a case to reform it?

 

[MotherOfChickens]

It's incredibly frustrating on this forum when someone attempts to offer a wider perspective of the issue, those who don't want to hear it simply scream "oh that's just whataboutery" instead of engaging in further discussion. I would argue that is far greater deflection tactic than pointing out issues with the wider equestrian world in general.

and I find it frustrating that people can't keep the discussion in line. There are endless threads on fat riders, fat horses, dressage horse training, the evil of showjumping although I'd argue that eventing more often than not gets a free pass. These are all bad things that we need to improve but they are not related to the racing industry. Because of these other bad things, we can't try and improve another?

I am glad that there is a level of transparency in racing wrt inspection etc but is it enough and from a horse welfare point of view, are they even looking at the right things? (going back to 'treated like royalty' phrase).

Racing is the only equestrian sport (including harness racing in that) that exists to support a gambling industry and that has an effect on most everyone's actions within that industry-from not turning out, from not feeding enough forage, to pushing a tired horse etc.

 

[Gallop_Away]

But it is acknowledged, month in month out, on other threads. This thread is about racing.



I don't. Personally, all I want at the moment is for it to acknowledge its problems in the way the horses are bred, kept, used, disposed of and own the NH deaths rates, even if the answer given is they died doing what they loved and you find that acceptable.

So far nobody has said that last one, everyone has simply denied that the deaths are exceptional in horse sport.,



You're free to start yet another thread to add to the many which discuss cruelty in the horse world. This one was started to discuss racing and bringing in the other activities without answering the questions about racing is deflection.
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Yes this thread is about racing, and myself and others have offered our opinion, which included areas we feel racing needs to change and improve.
At the same time we have also pointed out that some of these issues are not unique to racing, but other equestrian sports also. It is relevant TO THIS THREAD, whether people like to acknowledge it or not. That is not whataboutery. That is offering a wider perspective to the discussion.
I didn't mean that you yourself wish to see racing banned. I was referring to the question in the title of the thread. Apologies for not making that clear.
What question are you referring to that has not been answered? Apologies if I have missed it. I think I answered the initial question in the thread in my first post?

 

[ycbm]

But shouldn't we look at how to get a better reporting system in place for deaths in leisure horses and other equestrian sports? At least then fair comparisons came be made and if racing is found to be more dangerous to the horse then its easier to bring a case to reform it?

It would be a start if anyone could find the figures published in a clear form for racing. They used to be, they've stopped.

I'm baffled how anyone can doubt it. I don't feel any need to ask BE how many horses died on course last year (I'm pretty sure they know) to know that it doesn't hold a candle to NH death rates.

Over 50 deaths in racing on course this year before we are half way through April. BHA 2017 statistic of 1 in 500 starters, including flat racers, making a guess of 1 in 300 NH reasonable, but why are we having to guess?

If 1 in 300 starters died on course in BE after leaving the start box, (to bang the point again that's at least one, often two, every weekend on every course running that weekend, week after week) would there even be a season next year?
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[ycbm]

What question are you referring to that has not been answered

I haven't referred to any questions.
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[SO1]

If the gambling element was removed and it was less commercial and more for the love of sport maybe the set up and welfare might improve.

In terms of general welfare maybe we do need to consider a minimum amount of turnout for youngsters regardless for what discipline they are being bred or trained for.

Racing is the only equestrian sport (including harness racing in that) that exists to support a gambling industry and that has an effect on most everyone's actions within that industry-from not turning out, from not feeding enough forage, to pushing a tired horse etc.

 

[Fred66]

This going to be unpopular but deaths per se are not a measure of animal welfare or animal cruelty. So a sport that has a higher risk does not make it more cruel.

For example beef cattle are destined to be killed but that does not make the rearing or killing cruel.

 

[sbloom]

I’ve watched racing all my life and have become very uncomfortable with it. Members of my family worked in National Hunt so I was brought up to believe it was beyond reproach…

But now I see it, like, livestock farming is not necessary: it happens because humans like it. Simple as. If you’d said this to me twenty years ago I’d have argued that of course it’s necessary, the horses wouldn’t exist if it were not for racing and oh wouldn’t that be awful. No.

They wouldn‘t exist and they wouldn’t suffer either. They exist so people can bet (generally the less well off) and the rich can feel rich. You might disagree with that last bit. Or all of it. I don’t mind.

Apart from not having been surrounded by racing I'm the same. Used to go to the odd point to point for a jolly, watched the big races on telly, but the world has changed, I've changed with it, and I don't like it anymore. I can't see me going vegan or even vegetarian, but indulging in a sport that destroys horses (and not just by killing them, even the ones that go onto be rehabilitated don't always have great lives, the damage is long term) AND human lives through betting, is one that needs to go. Betting ads on TV should never have been allowed, the level of misery the industry causes makes me nauseous.

 

[Goldenstar]

I am very anti gambling , it’s causes misery for many but for many it’s a fun pastime It is however a separate issue to that of the care and treatment of racehorses .
I am really conflicted about racing tbh I don’t like all those yelling and screaming people with The horses one bad step from injury or death it just makes me feel sick
Thats a different thing though to wanting it banned , wanting the thoroughbred not to exist .
Thats where organisations like PETA are .

 

[Burnerbee]

If the gambling element was removed and it was less commercial and more for the love of sport maybe the set up and welfare might improve.

In terms of general welfare maybe we do need to consider a minimum amount of turnout for youngsters regardless for what discipline they are being bred or trained for.

Racing would not exist if there was no betting.

 

[bonny]

Racing would not exist if there was no betting.

So there’s no racing in the Middle East ?

 

[humblepie]

There is a Racing Post article from February 2022 with the BHA figures and data for 2021 although can't see it on the BHA website.

I really disliked on Saturday when Sire du Berlais won beating the favourite and there was booing but I am sure if you were at Newton Abbot on a weekday and a favourite got turned over you wouldn't get that.

 

[ycbm]

beef cattle are destined to be killed but that does not make the rearing or killing cruel.

You need to include the method of death.

Beef cattle dying of a captive bolt doesn't compare in terms of humane deaths with breaking a leg and waiting for the emergency team.
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