Dilutes in the Hunter Ring

[mcjberkshire]

Currently in the process of purchasing a foal to be a middleweight/heavyweight hunter and have been offered a cracking palomino colt which ticks all of my boxes.

I’ve personally never seen it happen, but have had some people mention that some judges don’t prefer color or dilutes in the ring, but I have heard this is mainly with spots and colored.

Do you think I will still run into judges who wont place a dilute?

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Unfortunately so. I only know of one palomino riding horse who made it to the top. Otherwise its bays, greys and chestnuts all the way. Whilst a lot of younger judges won't mind the colour the old school judges will.

 

[minesadouble]

Elf on a Shelf is right, also personally, I've never seen a palomino of the height and type to make a Show Hunter though I'm not saying it could never happen.

 

[YorkshireLady]

I have seen coloured do well in middle weight....not in lightweight

 

[Snowfilly]

I’ve seen a cracking spotted take a large hunter championship, and a dilute (buckskin) place as a hack (albeit I think it would have placed higher if it had a better nature, it was a grouchy sod every time I ever saw it) but in general, no, they don’t place as well especially with the older judges.

If you want one to ride and showing is extra, I’d go for it, but if you’re focussing on showing, you’re starting at a disadvantage and I’d pass.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I’ve seen a cracking spotted take a large hunter championship, and a dilute (buckskin) place as a hack (albeit I think it would have placed higher if it had a better nature, it was a grouchy sod every time I ever saw it) but in general, no, they don’t place as well especially with the older judges.

If you want one to ride and showing is extra, I’d go for it, but if you’re focussing on showing, you’re starting at a disadvantage and I’d pass.

But that will have been at a local show yes? Not a qualifier or county show?

 

[Pinkvboots]

Agree with Elf local shows won't matter but anything else they are just not seen.

You can do shows specific to palomino horses my friend did really well with hers

She was a PB Arab so she also did those classes at County and affiliated level as any sort of colour is more accepted.

 

[Snowfilly]

But that will have been at a local show yes? Not a qualifier or county show?

The spotted was at Stithians, which is a county level show and was a qualifier for something, I don’t remember what because it was about 15 years ago. The show currently hosts BSHA qualifiers; they’ve had RI and Olympia in the past. I later saw it out on the hunting field, never saw it in the show ring again. I do wonder if they knew the judge wasn’t adverse to some colour and brought it out for a jolly and did better than expected.

The buckskin I saw place in a Royal International qualifier twice, never high enough up the line to take a ticket but I also saw it place in Equifest classes a couple of times.

 

[MystieMoo]

Without wishing to sound ignorant, can someone explain why dilutes are a problem?
I showed my Welsh B locally as a child and remember dilutes/coloured horses and ponies being very frowned upon, I don't think I ever saw one placed high up in the line. They were pretty rare at all back then and seemed to be reserved for riding schools.
Nowadays, I've seen some absolutely stunning dilutes - it seems such a shame.
Is it just an old-fashioned idea not to consider them, or is it to do with specific kines of breeding etc?

 

[Snowfilly]

Without wishing to sound ignorant, can someone explain why dilutes are a problem?
I showed my Welsh B locally as a child and remember dilutes/coloured horses and ponies being very frowned upon, I don't think I ever saw one placed high up in the line. They were pretty rare at all back then and seemed to be reserved for riding schools.
Nowadays, I've seen some absolutely stunning dilutes - it seems such a shame.
Is it just an old-fashioned idea not to consider them, or is it to do with specific kines of breeding etc?

It’s just tradition mixed with ignorance.

There’s a lot of people will tell you a blue eyed horse, which covers a lot of dilutes, is deaf, blind or more prone to illness (some of the pink skinned are more liable to sun burn but that’s about it.)

There is an issue where some breeders have breed for colour over everything else, leading to dodgy looks and temperament but that’s certainly not the case for most of them.

You’ll find a lot of older people will still call them circus horses or the like, and insist they can’t do the job as well, and a lot of judges just won’t place one. Certain breed societies won’t register them or place them in an X register so they can’t even get into the show ring.

(Shetlands, Welsh and minis are all very accepting of colour, and so are the Arab part bred classes in a lot of places)

It is ridiculous and ignorant but it takes years to change.

 

[RachelFerd]

It’s just tradition mixed with ignorance.

There’s a lot of people will tell you a blue eyed horse, which covers a lot of dilutes, is deaf, blind or more prone to illness (some of the pink skinned are more liable to sun burn but that’s about it.)

There is an issue where some breeders have breed for colour over everything else, leading to dodgy looks and temperament but that’s certainly not the case for most of them.

You’ll find a lot of older people will still call them circus horses or the like, and insist they can’t do the job as well, and a lot of judges just won’t place one. Certain breed societies won’t register them or place them in an X register so they can’t even get into the show ring.

(Shetlands, Welsh and minis are all very accepting of colour, and so are the Arab part bred classes in a lot of places)

It is ridiculous and ignorant but it takes years to change.

What happened to the (old fashioned) adage that a good horse is never a bad colour?

It's yet another reason why showing can go and do one as far as I''m concerned.

 

[MystieMoo]

It’s just tradition mixed with ignorance.

There’s a lot of people will tell you a blue eyed horse, which covers a lot of dilutes, is deaf, blind or more prone to illness (some of the pink skinned are more liable to sun burn but that’s about it.)

There is an issue where some breeders have breed for colour over everything else, leading to dodgy looks and temperament but that’s certainly not the case for most of them.

You’ll find a lot of older people will still call them circus horses or the like, and insist they can’t do the job as well, and a lot of judges just won’t place one. Certain breed societies won’t register them or place them in an X register so they can’t even get into the show ring.

(Shetlands, Welsh and minis are all very accepting of colour, and so are the Arab part bred classes in a lot of places)

It is ridiculous and ignorant but it takes years to change.

Thanks for replying. Such a shame it's still so short-sighted. I had hoped things might've changed since the 1980s when I showed. I remember the stigma, but I'm glad some societies are more inclusive. We have a pink-skinned Blue & White mare and she's amazing.

 

[minesadouble]

What happened to the (old fashioned) adage that a good horse is never a bad colour?

It's yet another reason why showing can go and do one as far as I''m concerned.

I think with a Hunter, especially a Middle or Heavyweight I'd wonder where the colour had come from, traditionally there tends to be a huge amount of ID among the middle and heavyweights, sometimes with a bit of TB mixed in. You're not going to get a Palomino from that kind of traditional breeding.

 

[milliepops]

isn't a hunter a type of horse rather than a breed though? (showing numpty klaxon). so would it matter if the horse was still typey?

 

[minesadouble]

isn't a hunter a type of horse rather than a breed though? (showing numpty klaxon). so would it matter if the horse was still typey?

It is a type rather than a breed, but usually that type comes from ID or part bred ID. They tend to be 16.3+ and judges do tend to favour traditional types rather than Warmblood types so IDs and ID/TB mixes tend to be popular.

 

[Snowfilly]

I think with a Hunter, especially a Middle or Heavyweight I'd wonder where the colour had come from, traditionally there tends to be a huge amount of ID among the middle and heavyweights, sometimes with a bit of TB mixed in. You're not going to get a Palomino from that kind of traditional breeding.

Easy as anything to get a palomino. Just add a bit of Connemara blood - there’s still a lot of buckskins around - and then find a nice chestnut mare. Probably needs to be two generations down to breed the size back up.

You need a stallion carrying chestnut and dilute, to throw both of those against a chestnut mare and you’ve got a palomino foal. You’ll find a lot of Irish sports horses described as ‘dun’ are actually buckskin.

Also works with Welsh, although that’s not as easy to fit into Hunter breeding.

 

[minesadouble]

Easy as anything to get a palomino. Just add a bit of Connemara blood - there’s still a lot of buckskins around - and then find a nice chestnut mare.

You need a stallion carrying chestnut and dilute, to throw both of those against a chestnut mare and you’ve got a palomino foal. You’ll find a lot of Irish sports horses described as ‘dun’ are actually buckskin.

Also works with Welsh, although that’s not as easy to fit into Hunter breeding.

I'm no colour expert but I'd be surprised if many 16.3+ traditional hunter types have very much pony blood in them.
If it was an outstanding example of it's type I'd take a punt on a Palamino but tbh I've never seen such an animal, not just in the show ring but even in the hunting field.

 

[spacefaer]

Anything with bloodlines that produce the colour "tends" not to have the size or bone required. Not many quality hwts with 10"+ bone have dilute colour breeding as it tends to come from wb or pony lines which are light of bone for the type

There's an RID line, based on a horse called Cork Arthur, which produces duns/buckskins (I'm no colour expert ?)
There's also a horse called Major Gold who produces palominos but I've never seen a hwt by him. Some nice mwts though.
I think judges tend to assume that the colour comes from non traditional breeding and can't see past that assumption.

 

[Tiddlypom]

What happened to the (old fashioned) adage that a good horse is never a bad colour?

It's yet another reason why showing can go and do one as far as I''m concerned.

This with bells on!

 

[Leandy]

I'm not a hunter expert and the only showing I have done was in the last century so I may well count as old fashioned! That said, I also have trouble envisaging of a palomino turning out to be absolutely the right stamp for a HW/MW show hunter (although I could see a dun making the cut). I guess the very essence of a show hunter is that it should be a well put together handsome, practical and workmanlike type for a good day's hunting. I fear a palomino would risk just looking "pretty" which is not the image required, however lovely it may be. Also think of the cost of groom's time in keeping a palomino hunter clean and presentable (yes, I know greys do fine nevertheless). If you have found one which truly is the right type irrespective of its colour, then crack on and break the mold but I would seriously ask - is it still impressive if you imagine it bay, or does it stand out because of its colour? I'm not a fan of breeding for colour at all. Whilst progress has been made, there are still far to many fancy coloured horses around which have sacrificed quality and type in favour of colour. I get that that is part of the journey to getting the right quality coloured types aimed for but it seems those buying and breeding such animals imagine that the colour should compensate somehow for compromises in type and quality. That is a valid opinion, but so is the view that colour is not a relevant factor and hence unless the type and quality is nevertheless there, then the animal should not be highly placed. It is easy for owners of not tip top animals to imagine that the colour is the reason the animal is not put up. There are many bays and chestnuts down the line too!

 

[Snowfilly]

I'm not a hunter expert and the only showing I have done was in the last century so I may well count as old fashioned! That said, I also have trouble envisaging of a palomino turning out to be absolutely the right stamp for a HW/MW show hunter (although I could see a dun making the cut). I guess the very essence of a show hunter is that it should be a well put together handsome, practical and workmanlike type for a good day's hunting. I fear a palomino would risk just looking "pretty" which is not the image required, however lovely it may be. Also think of the cost of groom's time in keeping a palomino hunter clean and presentable (yes, I know greys do fine nevertheless). If you have found one which truly is the right type irrespective of its colour, then crack on and break the mold but I would seriously ask - is it still impressive if you imagine it bay, or does it stand out because of its colour? I'm not a fan of breeding for colour at all. Whilst progress has been made, there are still far to many fancy coloured horses around which have sacrificed quality and type in favour of colour. I get that that is part of the journey to getting the right quality coloured types aimed for but it seems those buying and breeding such animals imagine that the colour should compensate somehow for compromises in type and quality. That is a valid opinion, but so is the view that colour is not a relevant factor and hence unless the type and quality is nevertheless there, then the animal should not be highly placed. It is easy for owners of not tip top animals to imagine that the colour is the reason the animal is not put up. There are many bays and chestnuts down the line too!

Most duns in the U.K. especially Irish ones are buckskin ie single dilute on bay. If you cross one that carries chestnut with another chestnut and you get the dilute and chestnut both thrown, you’ll have a palomino of exactly the same stamp.

This misunderstanding of basic colour genetics causes all sorts of problems!

Dun is rare in the U.K aside from Highlands.

 

[Leandy]

Most duns in the U.K. especially Irish ones are buckskin ie single dilute on bay. If you cross one that carries chestnut with another chestnut and you get the dilute and chestnut both thrown, you’ll have a palomino of exactly the same stamp.

This misunderstanding of basic colour genetics causes all sorts of problems!

Dun is rare in the U.K aside from Highlands.

Thank you for the lecture. I'm old fashioned and not a geneticist so they are all dun to me! Out of interest, we had a dun pony mare (yes you would probably call it buckskin but to me that is an Americanism and I'm not American) when I was a child which, bred with a bay TB produced a surprise palomino foal. The vet looked at it and said "but where have the black points gone?" So even for the professionals it is not a common occurence. So I'm well aware they can just appear from certain breeding without intention. It doesn't change my other comments though, based on what I observe and my own preferences on colour. I say I could see a dun being a show hunter because to me it is still a "workmanlike" rather than a "pretty" colour. In fact from having one, I'd say it is one of the best for not showing the dirt!

 

[criso]

It's not just about bone and substance and appearing not to have traditional breeding as it's not just hunters where traditional colours are preferred but Hacks and Riding Horses. I remember someone I know who takes her showing seriously was looking for a new horse, dismissed horses with too loud white markings i.e. blazes and white legs as judges preferred.

When I was a kid there was a fashion for palomino part bred arabs to show but in pba classes. My chestnut mare came out of this as using a palomino stallion meant it was 50/50 chestnut or palomino.

 

[fetlock]

A fabulous dun show hunter from 1955 (Ireland)

 

[millikins]

Most duns in the U.K. especially Irish ones are buckskin ie single dilute on bay. If you cross one that carries chestnut with another chestnut and you get the dilute and chestnut both thrown, you’ll have a palomino of exactly the same stamp.

This misunderstanding of basic colour genetics causes all sorts of problems!

Dun is rare in the U.K aside from Highlands.

And Shetlands though I doubt they'd produce many hunters! I believe there is dun in I.D's though very rare, and I assume that's dun not buckskin.

 

[Rowreach]

I put a really lovely coloured Hunter through in a qualifier a few years ago. Organisers were horrified and I was never invited back to judge there.

 

[I'm Dun]

A fabulous dun show hunter from 1955 (Ireland)

View attachment 92825

That is buckskin. Buckskin and dun are completely different genetically and fairly different visually

 

[I'm Dun]

Thank you for the lecture. I'm old fashioned and not a geneticist so they are all dun to me! Out of interest, we had a dun pony mare (yes you would probably call it buckskin but to me that is an Americanism and I'm not American) when I was a child which, bred with a bay TB produced a surprise palomino foal. The vet looked at it and said "but where have the black points gone?" So even for the professionals it is not a common occurence.

We wouldn't call the pony buckskin, it is. Buckskin is one copy of a cream gene on top of bay. The pony passed that cream gene on to produce the palomino, palomino is one copy of cream on chestnut. They don't just appear And this is why people need to differentiate between dun/buckskin etc. That way no one is surprised.

Buckskin is not an americanism, its the name for a specific set of genes which produce a specific colour.

 

[Snowfilly]

I put a really lovely coloured Hunter through in a qualifier a few years ago. Organisers were horrified and I was never invited back to judge there.

Argh. Congratulations to you for being a judge with the ability to see past as something superficial as colour!

The organisers sound stuck in the Dark Ages.

 

[humblepie]

One of the top producers had a palomino riding horse a few years back. Whilst I’d say some of it is tradition I would also say that mainly type. I have friends with nice bay horses that don’t fit into hack, riding horse or hunter type.