Dog bit me - my fault - then I kicked it - need (much) better strategy

DressageCob

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Hang on...I. agreed with each and every paragraph of the posters laborious three years with this dog and her attempts to remedy the problems..
Poster has worked extremely hard and followed every protocol that she could to get results...
UNTIL,, she stepped in and took a huge bone off an ex rescue dog..and got bitten..and then she kicked it...failures on each side..but, perfectly understandable....and so you move on..no bones ,or prize toys left on the floor. next time use a broom stick to remove bone..
.......what I don’t think is fair is to use Board pack mentality to swoop on Levrier to nip at her heels for her comments and refer back to her own previous experiences with her own dogs.( But totally unrelated posts to this scenario)
This smacks of bullying.( edit..did I really say smacks. Lol)
.We all have an opinion.I-love posting here for the freedom of expression I believe it gives ..I don’t believe in old grudges ,I do believe in open discussion, not sniping.
I do agree with you, but I also think it was cruel and uncalled for to suggest that this poster should have her dogs taken off her, when she posted here as a safe place to try to learn from her mistake. I’m afraid I see that as bullying, particularly when what we are talking about is a small kick which wasn’t hard.

Given the demands that the OP give up dog ownership, I’m not surprised people reminded the poster of her own shortcomings. We all make mistakes; if we all lost our dogs over it then the shelters would be full and all homes would be empty.

I think a little more empathy and humanity was needed all round.
 

YorksG

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My late father used to walk five labs through the village, 2 on one side 3 on the other, with none of them on leads, they all sat at the kerb and crossed the road on command. They were also happy, joyous dogs, with plenty of personality, who adored Dad. Dad did not tolerate badly behaved dogs, food stealing and not dropping an item were high on his list of not happening! He would smack a dog for those trespasses, not hard, but they knew it was not acceptable. I have to say if one of them had ever bitten him, the wrath of God would have landed on them!
The bitch who we bred from ruled the pack and was not above grabbing the younger ones by the scruff and putting them in their place. I don't think anyone is advocating battering dogs but dogs and children thrive when there are boundaries to live within.
 

TPO

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OP was clearly having the original bad day given post title and content.

They were clearly remorseful and beating themselves up. Theres no need to kick someone already down on themselves enough to have made a new user name and berate their own actions. They asked for help how to fix the training issue that had arisen; nothing else needed to be commented on.

One incident in three years with a rescue dog who had/has issues isnt bad going.

I hope OP is feeling a bit better and has some new tools in their box to do the required training with their (clearly loved and cared for) Dog.
 

skinnydipper

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I am an amateur, not a professional. (I only have experience of training my own dogs)

If a dog is not doing as I ask then I feel it is a failure on my part because I have not helped them to understand what it is that I am asking them to do.
I was thinking this evening and remembered Mrs Ransome.

I have never been brilliant at maths. At school, when I was about 8, we were doing "sums" one day and I can't remember what it was but I got it wrong. I was called to the front of the class and the teacher - Mrs Ransome - slapped the back of my legs. I was humiliated, it didn't help me understand where I was going wrong or look forward to her lessons.

Mrs Brown, on the other hand, was patient and generous with praise. I enjoyed her lessons and worked hard to please her.

I like to train like Mrs Brown not Mrs Ransome.

ETA. I am not sure if they are still in use in schools but Mrs R sat on a tubular metal chair with canvas seat. I wasn't at all sorry when she fell through the seat one day.
 
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Levrier

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I don’t always like what you write or how you say things, but you’re obviously really upset right now, I’m guessing about Ace? I hope he’s ok and that you can find the funds to help him. I’m just posting to offer you a virtual hug as my gut tells me you need one. And the same to the original poster who clearly knows they did absolutely the wrong thing and feels horrible about it.
Just wanted to say thanks for this BBP - I am still very upset and angry with my vets for not treating Ace properly, and I will be submitting a formal complaint to them.

I was wondering why I felt so rubbish and desperate on Tuesday evening but all became clearer when I woke up on Wednesday with a persistent cough, muscle ache, going hot and cold, nausea etc - currently waiting for the outcome of my Covid-19 test. It’s probably just a cold 😳
 

BBP

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Just wanted to say thanks for this BBP - I am still very upset and angry with my vets for not treating Ace properly, and I will be submitting a formal complaint to them.

I was wondering why I felt so rubbish and desperate on Tuesday evening but all became clearer when I woke up on Wednesday with a persistent cough, muscle ache, going hot and cold, nausea etc - currently waiting for the outcome of my Covid-19 test. It’s probably just a cold 😳
Fingers crossed for you that it isn’t Covid or Flu, but sounds horrid anyway. Hope you feel better soon.
 

jenniehodges2001

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I was smacked as a child.

It never did me any harm. You have to set boundaries as far an animals are concerned.
Two scenarios.

1. The dog raided the cupboard this morning, pulled out some dog biscuits which even she won't normally eat, and ate a number of them. She did not get reprimanded because she is on steroids and is incredibly hungry and it is totally out of character for her to do such a thing.

2. However, had she ran over to a child or dog in the park and nipped at either for know reason when she knows better then we would have possibly smacked her. When I say smacked I mean a short tap and a gruff 'NO!'.

I was smacked as a child at the back of my knee when I misbehaved. But maybe that is why I frequently go round punching the **** out of anything that moves and have been locked in jail numerous times for GBH and murder :rolleyes:
 

jenniehodges2001

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Oh and I probably smack my horse once, maybe twice a year. He is a happy, well rounded and kind individual but he still needs to be set boundaries and told. And if you think that tapping a horse on the shoulder is going to 'hurt it' well it probably in all likelihood won't even feel it tbh.

Whereas I know of another livery on our little yard whose pony walks all over him, threatens to bite or kick anything that goes without 10 foot of it, spends all day kicking the door and is a totally miserable horse that won't stand still for more than a couple of minutes without scraping its foot constantly on the floor. The owner, a man of enough years to know better says 'oh you naughty boy' or tells the person who nearly needed a face transplant 'oh he won't hurt you' . He wouldn't dream of smacking it (probably because said horse would floor him) ;) and he thinks that his method of nicey, nicey fluffy cloud thinking is best.....
 
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MrsMozart

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Just wanted to say thanks for this BBP - I am still very upset and angry with my vets for not treating Ace properly, and I will be submitting a formal complaint to them.

I was wondering why I felt so rubbish and desperate on Tuesday evening but all became clearer when I woke up on Wednesday with a persistent cough, muscle ache, going hot and cold, nausea etc - currently waiting for the outcome of my Covid-19 test. It’s probably just a cold 😳
I hope you're okay lass.
 

jenniehodges2001

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You have a lot to learn if you think setting boundaries involves punishment.

Intimidation is also unnecessary.
You could put them in the naughty corner I suppose......

Sometimes a smack is all it takes. My horse isn't intimidated because i smack him once or twice a year, I actually find that he has more respect for me because I treat him as he would be treated in the wild by another horse if he stepped out of line, obviously not a smack from a horse as they don't have hands but a quick nip. I assume he doesn't hate me as I get a massive whinny off him every day when I arrive on the yard. I have on occasion made myself 'big' by using my body language but have found that that isn't as effective. Five minutes after smacking a horse they've forgotten all about it, they don't turn into cowering wrecks.

So you can reason with them and say 'what a naughty pony' for taking someone's face off or for scraping its foot on the ground for the past two hours. And it has no effect whatsoever. Or you can use whatever other coping strategies work best in your ideal world, but I have never found anything but mutual respect for my animals by curbing any bad behaviour in their tracks and before it develops into a habit which is harder to resolve.
 

skinnydipper

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You could put them in the naughty corner I suppose......

Sometimes a smack is all it takes. My horse isn't intimidated because i smack him once or twice a year, I actually find that he has more respect for me because I treat him as he would be treated in the wild by another horse if he stepped out of line, obviously not a smack from a horse as they don't have hands but a quick nip. I assume he doesn't hate me as I get a massive whinny off him every day when I arrive on the yard. I have on occasion made myself 'big' by using my body language but have found that that isn't as effective. Five minutes after smacking a horse they've forgotten all about it, they don't turn into cowering wrecks.

So you can reason with them and say 'what a naughty pony' for taking someone's face off or for scraping its foot on the ground for the past two hours. And it has no effect whatsoever. Or you can use whatever other coping strategies work best in your ideal world, but I have never found anything but mutual respect for my animals by curbing any bad behaviour in their tracks and before it develops into a habit which is harder to resolve.
Oh, not again. This is tedious.

I'll stick to discussing dogs if you don't mind.

I prefer co-operation, trust and mutual respect.

I don't use aversives. I don't smack, slap, tap the nose, kick, jerk, shock, choke or yell.

You shouldn't bully or push a dog around just because you can. There are better ways. We have bigger brains than dogs.

I think you used the term "fluffy". I can assure you there is nothing "fluffy" about me.

The dog in my avatar was a behavioural mess when I got him. At 18 months he had spent his short life in a back yard, not been for a walk or socialised with other dogs or people. He was wild and distrustful. How far do you think it would have got me if I had started slapping him around? We built a strong relationship, he trusted me and would do anything I asked. I trusted him. He would have given his life for me. That was achieved with patience, guidance, and confident, calm leadership.

I had between 8 and 9 dogs living with 4 cats in peaceful harmony. No crates, cages or kennels. All living freely in the house. No chewing, separation anxiety, destruction or stress related behaviour. No fighting or bickering.

I also took all the dogs out together on my own, they could all walk nicely on a lead and come when called (yes, including the sight hounds, terriers and a dog who was born deaf). We had fun.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, as they say.

I agree with @Sandstone1

Dogs do not bite out of the blue or for no reason. They give lots of warnings but we often just do not read their body language.
If you get bitten you need to examine your own behaviour leading up to the bite, then give yourself a slap for getting it wrong.

I suggest you have a look at the thread "Any corgi experts out there" and any other thread that comes up when you search aversives or punishment - you will see I always take the same stance.

I became so weary of having the same discussion over and over that I rarely post on AAD these.

I have patience with dogs, with people not so much. I have wasted enough time with this, I'm done.

NB I came on this thread not to berate the OP but to offer advice about feeding from separate bowls.
 
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Clodagh

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I don't know when I did last smack a dog. I have to admit I don't think I have ever done it and actually achieved anything! I certainly haven't smacked one for 20 or more years, I think I did smack my rescue bull terrier way back in the day when she was caught bin diving for the umpteenth time. Then learned it was easier to keep the bin out of reach.
The OP admitted she was wrong in kicking the dog and SD I didn't think you were having a go at her.
I know now I only have labradors from pups so colour by numbers training wise but we used to have all sorts of rescues and rehomes and the ones that wanted to bite you - you'd have been in more danger smacking them than you were trying to get round the situation without doing so.
Absolutely not saying I haven't felt angry, exasperated and at the end of my tether on occasion.
 

Levrier

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I hope you're okay lass.
Thanks MrsM - 50 hours later I’ve finally got my result and it’s negative, phew!!! A friend says she has had the same symptoms as me for 2 months now 😱 so who knows what it is, but at least I can go out and walk the dogs again 😊

On completely another note it appears from one of BellaSophia’s replies that I missed a total bitchfest in response to my criticism of the OP - so sorry all those who posted totally wasted their time, I didn’t see any of it....
 

IrishMilo

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I do not care what they do or do not do to be honest, a happy confident animal is my aim not a robotic circus animal. That is just me though.
Happy animals are ones who know their place and have firm boundaries. To say that makes them robots is a ridiculous stretch at making those boundaries sound like animal abuse.

Have you ever seen the way a dog nips another when it's been pissed off by it? Do you think the adult dog who disciplines the puppy with a short nip is abusive?
 

jenniehodges2001

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I think you used the term "fluffy". I can assure you there is nothing "fluffy" about me.

The dog in my avatar was a behavioural mess when I got him. At 18 months he had spent his short life in a back yard, not been for a walk or socialised with other dogs or people. He was wild and distrustful. How far do you think it would have got me if I had started slapping him around? We built a strong relationship, he trusted me and would do anything I asked. I trusted him. He would have given his life for me. That was achieved with patience, guidance, and confident, calm leadership.
.
Gosh so we have gone from an occasional smack to 'slapping around' an animal on a daily basis.

That's a big jump and totally NOT what I (or anyone on here for that matter) said.
 

Goldenstar

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AAD does seem to be a kind place to come for constructive advice atm .

I was bitten by dog I was walking along it was with its owner on one of those idiotic extending leads it ran up to me grabbed me by the knee .
I felt no need to examine my behaviour sometimes it’s not the fault of the person who been bitten
 

Sandstone1

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Happy animals are ones who know their place and have firm boundaries. To say that makes them robots is a ridiculous stretch at making those boundaries sound like animal abuse.

Have you ever seen the way a dog nips another when it's been pissed off by it? Do you think the adult dog who disciplines the puppy with a short nip is abusive?
Yes, but people are not dogs.
 

skinnydipper

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AAD does seem to be a kind place to come for constructive advice atm .

I was bitten by dog I was walking along it was with its owner on one of those idiotic extending leads it ran up to me grabbed me by the knee .
I felt no need to examine my behaviour sometimes it’s not the fault of the person who been bitten
I believe we were talking about owners and their dogs?
 

Tiddlypom

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I felt no need to examine my behaviour sometimes it’s not the fault of the person who been bitten
Gosh, GS, steady on, we’ve been told that it’s always the fault of the person who’s been bitten. What did you do to antagonise that dog?
 

Sandstone1

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So are you anti Caesar then? He makes his hand into a dog jaw shape and uses it to chastise dogs as their mother would do. I don't see anything wrong with that.
I am 100% anti caesar Milan if thats who you mean. The mans a complete idiot and has set dog training back massively.
Try looking up the canine ladder of aggression.
 
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