Dressage Peeps - Help with rhythm/tempo

[Ambers Echo]

Lottie is very inconsistent. She speeds up then if you half halt she falls being the leg and so you need to micro manage every step and it just feels go/slow/go/slow.
I have been working on her being more responsive to both up and down transitions - and she is - but she still needs to be constantly adjusted. She won't just stay in the tempo I put her in. I've tried maintaining the trot tempo with my rise - counting out loud sometimes - but she isn't really improving with that. My RI says it;s an evasion - she is coming above, pushing through or leaning on the bit she will get better over time as she gets stronger. But I can't see why just maintaining a particular pace is harder for her than the stop/go approach she is taking? What is happening from her POV?

RI confirms that she also has to ride every stride, and micromanage at the moment - it's not just my riding.

Any exericses that help with this?

 

[palo1]

Lottie is very inconsistent. She speeds up then if you half halt she falls being the leg and so you need to micro manage every step and it just feels go/slow/go/slow.
I have been working on her being more responsive to both up and down transitions - and she is - but she still needs to be constantly adjusted. She won't just stay in the tempo I put her in. I've tried maintaining the trot tempo with my rise - counting out loud sometimes - but she isn't really improving with that. My RI says it;s an evasion - she is coming above, pushing through or leaning on the bit she will get better over time as she gets stronger. But I can't see why just maintaining a particular pace is harder for her than the stop/go approach she is taking? What is happening from her POV?

RI confirms that she also has to ride every stride, and micromanage at the moment - it's not just my riding.

Any exericses that help with this?

I think long, fairly steady hacking can really help with this, especially if you really focus on w/t with plenty of transitions and changes of diagonal. It seems to help them find their own rhythm, tempo and balance. Sometimes in the school there can be a lot to think about or focus on too many things at once. Hacking can help to consolidate rhythm I think because it provides a clearer field for finding consistency iykwim.

 

[tda]

Have you tried having some music on
Otherwise I'd do what Palo suggested

 

[Ambers Echo]

Nope not tried music! And she does hack a lot so hopefully that will help.

 

[MuddyMonster]

Ditto hacking. Especially incorporating hill work as I found once he become stronger, it was much easier keeping his own balance & rhythm.

If you can't hack then 'hacking' in the school has really helped us in the past- literally laps of the school trying to maintain rhythm and pace. Now I use the same for fitness work.

I also found riding with very little contact helpful (and using circles to slow when needed) helped take some of evasion/brace element out of it for us - but pony hates feeling micro managed and used to brace against the rider a lot.

 

[Bernster]

Loss of balance or a bit weaker in terms of core strength? As you know, I’m on a similar path and that’s what causes loss of rhythm with Bertie. He used to dive onto the forehand, rush a bit, then steady up to much. He also needs more leg in canter than you’d think.

I’ve been plugging away doing the usual - poles, lunging, regular schooling and lessons, hacking, physio…you know the drill 8 months along and the paces are much more regular, hardly any diving, better transitions and just losing balance for a stride or two coming out of canter. No time to rest on our laurels though as now we’re moving onto expecting better quality work. It never ends but it’s fun to work through it ?

 

[Ambers Echo]

Yes perhaps I need to be more patient. I have taken a short video clip of dressage work in Dec/jan/Fen and will keep adding to the video. The change from 1 month to the next is pretty clear but Rome wasn't built in a day! Need to just koko

We are doing our first comp on Saturday. With no expectations - just for expereience, exposure nas a baseline. That will be interesting!

 

[mavandkaz]

Maybe you need to look at ways to increase her independence, so to speak. Ideally you want her to maintain rhythm without your help.
My boy is very sensitive to the aids, which of course is great but I got into the habit of micro managing his tempo, and this caused huge issues when jumping. A slight half halt to balance on a corner and he would drop back too much, or ask for a slightly bigger stride to meet a jump, and he would take it too far.

What is she like if you lunge her? Can she maintain her own rhythm, even if it's not the one you want?
I agree hacking with a light contact would be good. Not having to worry about balancing for corners etc would allow you to work with her natural rhythm, and then begin to work on using your seat to maintain the rhythm/tempo you want. Don't forget she will also need the strength to do this, so the hacking is going to help with that too.

 

[Ambers Echo]

She is a bit better on the lunge actually.

 

[Cortez]

A bit more info would be helpful - how old is she? What's she done up to now? That sort of thing.

A great way to get them swinging along, and also stronger, is trot poles (generally on a curve when lunging, but can be straight too), on the lunge at first, and also ridden. I also sometimes set them so they have to juuuust stretch a little to get the distance.

 

[Ambers Echo]

She’s 9 this year from a show jumping background though only low level. Came with an upside down neck and not much education on the flat and verdict from trainer is she has not been worked over her back and was weak and unbalanced. But she is loads stronger now.

 

[ycbm]

DabDab gave me this one a couple of years back. Count. Out loud if necessary. One two one two one two ....

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I rode with a metronome before. I only had to use it a few times.

I also agree with the suggestion of using poles.

 

[scats]

I had a similar problem with Millie when she arrived. If she drops behind you when you half half, she’s not quite infront of the leg (even if she has fooled you into thinking she is- Millie is good at this trick!). It occurred to me that she actually didn’t really understand the half half, so I had to re-establish this with her using an exercise where I would do a walk stride across the diagonal and back to trot, eventually scrapping the walk stride but keeping the initial half half aid so she anticipated and sat back. This made a huge difference because she started to realise that a half half didn’t mean to die or go flat.

Make sure that you aren’t getting into the habit of pushing, nudging or using leg every stride when she back off or loses the tempo.
Polework can be useful, as can sending them into canter and getting off their back to let them swing along, then forwards again to trot.

 

[milliepops]

What's going on from her POV is that she is dealing with whatever the problem is at the time, the only way she knows how. whether that's stiffness, lack of balance, one sidedness etc. the horse doesn't *know* that it will be better if it trots in an even rhythm and tempo, after all it's only better from the rider's POV. for the horse that is harder work than scrabbling around.

I think one of the things that really helps me is to have in my mind how i want the horse to feel, and ride to THAT feel. It's very easy to get into over managing them, which turns into a cycle of over-management - you over correct the speed, then the horse is going too slow, then you send it forward, it shoots off, you correct the left or right bend and the horse does too much and ends up banana-ed the other way...
if you pick the speed and tempo you want in your head and ride that, the horse stands a better chance of falling in step. it's hard to do if you are used to doing a bit of this and a bit of that. that's not to say that you don't correct the horse, but you start from where you want to be each time, rather than where you currently are, if that makes sense? the rider has to ride at an "8" level, if the horse is giving a "4", then you might meet at 6. you can't go down to her 4 and hope you can both go upwards.

 

[oldie48]

MP, totally agree but perhaps to put it another way, there's a reason that rhythm is the first scale of training, without it the rider doesn't have much to work with. Some horses seem to have a natural rhythm, others don't, even the horses with good natural rhythm can lose it when the work gets harder for them so it's up to the rider to keep that consistent even if they lose the quality. I wonder how much this is about having a horse that is "in front of the leg" and ensuring that it stays "in front of the leg". Rhythm or lack of rhythm stalks us through the levels and is actually the basis of everything. I'd be interested to hear what others think?

 

[milliepops]

Yeah its definitely a bit of a circular thing I think. e.g how often do you see a rider allow an egg shaped circle, which then disrupts the rhythm the horse might have tootled along in a rhythm had the rider looked after the line a bit better.

The opposite is probably likely too, but as you say it's up to the rider to control or enable correct rhythm and tempo as the horse doesn't have a benchmark of "correctness " to refer to

 

[Ambers Echo]

MP why is trotting in a rhythm harder than scrabbling around? When I was running I hated mass participation events because it was impossible to get into a rhythm until the crowds thinned out and it felt so much harder constantly having to adjust. I assumed it was similar for horses but sounds like that’s not the case x

 

[Ambers Echo]

ETA and even running alone , if felt a lot easier in a rhythm than mixing the pace up

 

[ycbm]

MP why is trotting in a rhythm harder than scrabbling around? When I was running I hated mass participation events because it was impossible to get into a rhythm until the crowds thinned out and it felt so much harder constantly having to adjust. I assumed it was similar for horses but sounds like that’s not the case x

I think horses lacking strength need to get the next foot/feet back on the floor as soon as it begins to lose balance. A rhythmic trot requires them to hold their balance until it's the right time for the feet to be put back down, and that takes core strength and energy.
.

 

[ycbm]

ETA and even running alone , if felt a lot easier in a rhythm than mixing the pace up

If you watch a toddler learning to walk without enough balance and core strength, they'll speed up and slow down (until they fall over). I think Lottie is closer to the toddler than a proficient runner, by the sound of it.

 

[milliepops]

I think horses lacking strength need to get the next foot/feet back on the floor as soon as it begins to lose balance. A rhythmic trot requires them to hold their balance until it's the right time for the feet to be put back down, and that takes core strength and energy.
.

Exactly this. You don't see horses trotting round a field in a perfect rhythm in superb dressage balance, they adapt to the line and terrain in the most efficient way. Maintaining a consistent rhythm and tempo takes more effort... it must do otherwise they'd all offer it without a rider having to ask

 

[Ambers Echo]

Ok makes sense! Thanks xx

 

[daffy44]

I agree with a lot thats been said, poles, singing/counting out loud are really helpful tools for the rider to help the horse maintain rhythm. Certainly some horses are more natural than others, but natural or not, its hard work at the beginning, the horse requires a certain level of core strength, balance and energy to achieve a good consistent rhythm.

I would also add that for horses who are less natural, or less strong, its not helpful to do too many transitions in quick sucession, of course transitions are one of a riders most useful training tools, but if you have a horse who is strugging to maintain a rhythm asking for something different too quickly is not helping the horse.

 

[stangs]

I think long, fairly steady hacking can really help with this, especially if you really focus on w/t with plenty of transitions and changes of diagonal. It seems to help them find their own rhythm, tempo and balance. Sometimes in the school there can be a lot to think about or focus on too many things at once. Hacking can help to consolidate rhythm I think because it provides a clearer field for finding consistency iykwim.

This.

You've said before that she's better out hacking anyway, so long steady hacks should naturally help her build up her strength in a setting where you're not having to work against her running through the bridle as well. Counting is also a life-savour; I've previously spent 20 minutes saying "mon-key mon-key" on repeat and only realised when other riders entered the arena just how strange I must have come across.

 

[Jango]

Are you trying to ride her into an even contact, ride good circles with correct bend etc while also working on rhythm? If you are, I'd try and take a step back and just aim to trot round the outside of your school on a fairly soft/loose contact (but not washing lines) in a good rhythm like she was a newly backed 4 yo. Interfere with her as little as possible, leg off. Then if slows down, let her slow right down before you correct, don't micromanage. Same if she gets quicker, let her canter, then calmly bring her back to a sensible trot. Once you get a period of good rhythm, reward with voice, pat, back to walk and stretch and then try again. She needs to learn for herself that she stays where the rider puts her on her own, until she receives a different instruction.

 

[Bernster]

She’s 9 this year from a show jumping background though only low level. Came with an upside down neck and not much education on the flat and verdict from trainer is she has not been worked over her back and was weak and unbalanced. But she is loads stronger now.

 

[palo1]

Is her rhythm better in any particular pace I wonder? My young mare has always had a rather rhythmic trot (Welsh lol!) but walk took loads and loads of work - she was either dawdling along on the forehand or jig jogging and trying to trot which she finds easy. Time has helped but so has working with trot as a 'reward'. If she walked out nicely then I would allow her a little bit of her lovely trot as a break from the hard work of walking lol. She has a good walk now (she did have a wonderful walk as a 2 yo so I know it is there!) but still needs me to half halt when she starts to rush. Loads of hill work in walk has helped no end to strengthen her which has made it much easier for her too and has really improved her naturally nice trot as a bonus Canter is naturally quite rythmic but she is not strong enough to cope with circles so easily nor changes so that is still a bit messy!! It is really interesting what horses have in their 'bank' tbh: I think it can be helpful, really helpful to look at the scales of training (or other view of the same) and see where the 'natural' strengths lie too. Most horses haven't read the book but arrive in the world with a variety of natural talents. Sometimes you have to work a bit backwards though!!

 

[Ambers Echo]

I don’t really know! She is very slow/go in trot -and she is go/go in canter! If you try and slow she’s more likely to break to trot. I know she finds canter hard - partly because of her SI injury. She walks calmly and lets me choose the pace and stays in it. Walking hacks feel great on the buckle.

I’m not really sure what’s physical : balance/strength/natural rhythm. And what’s mental - freshness/ anticipation/not really understanding the aids. Her trot is so much worse after a canter because Adrenalin is up and she anticipates the next canter.

 

[tristar]

i would try trotting below the stop go and riding every stride thing, that sounds awful

i would let the horse go forwards even in a shuffle if it maintained rhythm, the same tempo, and leave it alone to learn one thing at a time

until it can `cope` i would leave it alone, loads of time with gentle not too frequent transitions, just to get the swinging to start and the consistency makes an appearance

perhaps she needs to build up physically to produce what it wanted then accept it mentally