Dressage Peeps - Help with rhythm/tempo

[palo1]

I don’t really know! She is very slow/go in trot -and she is go/go in canter! If you try and slow she’s more likely to break to trot. I know she finds canter hard - partly because of her SI injury. She walks calmly and lets me choose the pace and stays in it. Walking hacks feel great on the buckle.

I’m not really sure what’s physical : balance/strength/natural rhythm. And what’s mental - freshness/ anticipation/not really understanding the aids. Her trot is so much worse after a canter because Adrenalin is up and she anticipates the next canter.

It may be a combination of strength, balance and her expectations of what is required. I think it can take ages for a horse to believe that we want what we are asking for in a sense, especially if they have experiences and expectations about something - they tend to default to that I think. Not being able to go slowly in canter is often a strength/balance issue in my experience so that may be the issue in canter but something else might be difficult for her in trot! Also, each canter rein is difficult so there might be different things going on (and in trot also tbh; my senior horse is pretty one sided still - born that way largely lol so I have to use different strategies with each rein to achieve the same effect). I think it is easy to overthink and over-worry but giving it time and a decent consistent strategy should help.

 

[Bernster]

So similar! Always a bit tricky to give full info in a thread but for the specific trot/canter issue - we keep canter periods short, do the downward transition heading towards the outside of the school, then smallish circles to establish the trot, quite a firm half halt needed initially as he doesn’t really get half halt well yet. I try very hard not to brace, lift my toes into the transition, take the knee off and sit up. Trot poles help with rhythm. We don’t do lots of transitions as that winds him up too much. Once we’ve done the canter work, we don’t go back to that and work on re establishing the trot work.

These are obv addressing specific issues that we have, so may not be the same for you.

ETA when we started, I didn’t canter in the school for weeks as it was too hairy! It’s steadily improved and now we don’t need the circles after canter and I generally get the trot back in 1/2 strides. I forget how far we’ve come but it’s been slow and steady throughout.

 

[Leandy]

Mmm, I would generally think that an inability to maintain a decent rhythm is more of a rider issue than a horse issue. Is she properly in front of the leg and working to a consistent, soft contact? I would work on that, even if it means loss of rhythm every time you have to correct. Once the horse is properly off the leg and you don't have to nag it along, I would expect it to find a rhythm (and improve the contact). I would guess, without a video of course, that this is what is happening.

 

[Crollaz]

jumping on this thread i have all the same problems thanks for the advice guys but unfortunately I do not have any hills to build up strength

 

[Ample Prosecco]

So rode today and I think I am begiining to glimpse a way forward. And I am probably not explaining things well.

I tried going large on a long rein to see what would happen. It was fine in walk but once we were trotting it was like that headcam video clip of that racehorse - slow trot to medium trot to spanking trot to canter to faster canter..... All very calm but speeding up all the time. So in a 'what will you do if I do nothing?' scenario the asnwer is go quicker.

So then I tried the 'riding to my own rhythm' like MP said the and 1,2,1,2 out loud several people have said. And that really did help - I stopped over-correcting and things smoothed out. And actually when I say micro-managaing I think this is what my RI does as she rides in a way that creates consistency. She describes it as 'riding every stride' and says Lottie is not easy as she won;t just stay in the rhythm you put her on but needs continually adjusting, But she also says make tiny adjustments all the time with seat, position and brief half halts and give the hands forward wherever possible. And eventually she well get better and carry herself for longer and need less input from the rider. So is that the same as riding own rhythm and expecting her to adjust under me? Which I think is what s being suggested upthread?

But then there were also times when she just blew through the aid and bogged off. Which I think was just rude! And I remember the Buck Brannaman 'ask nicely then make it happen' approach. Or 'light as you can be, hard as you need to be' then release immediately and repeat. So each time she just completely ignored me and tried to take over I'd bring her right back to rein back, then rein back to where she took over. Halted soft there and then proceeded in trot and circled back to whatever we were doing before she took over. And even though getting too strong upsets her in general, she seemed to accept it done like this. It seemed ot make some sense to her.

By the end she was listening much better so hopefully we have a plan. Overall I was riding with a much much lighter hand today, making smaller adjustments, and giving her more responsibility. But it was both lighter than usual when she was ok and harder than usual when she ignored me. Maybe that clarity will help her understand?

 

[Bernster]

I’d say so yes. And the more you do, the better it will get, and the less you have to do. ?

 

[JGC]

What's going on from her POV is that she is dealing with whatever the problem is at the time, the only way she knows how. whether that's stiffness, lack of balance, one sidedness etc. the horse doesn't *know* that it will be better if it trots in an even rhythm and tempo, after all it's only better from the rider's POV. for the horse that is harder work than scrabbling around.

I think one of the things that really helps me is to have in my mind how i want the horse to feel, and ride to THAT feel. It's very easy to get into over managing them, which turns into a cycle of over-management - you over correct the speed, then the horse is going too slow, then you send it forward, it shoots off, you correct the left or right bend and the horse does too much and ends up banana-ed the other way...
if you pick the speed and tempo you want in your head and ride that, the horse stands a better chance of falling in step. it's hard to do if you are used to doing a bit of this and a bit of that. that's not to say that you don't correct the horse, but you start from where you want to be each time, rather than where you currently are, if that makes sense? the rider has to ride at an "8" level, if the horse is giving a "4", then you might meet at 6. you can't go down to her 4 and hope you can both go upwards.

I really needed to see this post today - thank you!

 

[TPO]

One helpful hint I was given about rhythm was to count higher than 1-2, 1-2 so 1 2 3 4 at least, my trainer made me call out up to 8.

He said 1- 2 wasn't long enough to create a rhythm because you start over on the one subconsciously.

 

[LEC]

I was discussing this with my trainer the other day. Her opinion is with young horses you spend your life micromanaging/correcting the horse while you teach them what is correct. You should be vigilant at all times with riding them and IMO this is the difference between pros and amateurs. Pros literally correct everything all the time, where as amateurs let things slide and later have to fill in the holes.

 

[milliepops]

i don't think that's particularly a pro/amateur split, it's a rider competence thing isn't it?

 

[LEC]

i don't think that's particularly a pro/amateur split, it's a rider competence thing isn't it?

meh, potato-potato!

 

[milliepops]

jokes aside i do think it's important to notice a difference, amateur riders can learn/train themselves to ride like this, it's not the reserve of people who do it for a living... that's how amateurs get good

 

[mavandkaz]

i don't think that's particularly a pro/amateur split, it's a rider competence thing isn't it?

I was thinking about this, and although not necessarily a pro Vs amateur thing, the riders outlook will have a huge impact and so often comes down to amateur/pro.
As a pro, riding multiple horses alot of it will be muscle memory - they will be used to constantly making corrections without thinking about it. Also, if making a living from competition results they, and the horse, need to be on top form so they can't let things slide.

I am a hobby rider, riding is a way for me to de-stress. If I am constantly worrying about every little thing, and having to micro manage, that's not going to be fun for me. Obviously I want my horse to be able to maintain a rhythm/tempo but I want them to do it 'themselves' rather then rely on me.
The end result is the same, but have probably gone down completely different ways of getting there. I do not have the mental strength after a long day at work to micro manage my horse during a schooling session. I will focus and one or two things and probably just let the rest slide.
Will we progress up the levels as quick as we could? No. Will we do as well in competitions as we would if I was always on it, and insisted on perfection all the time? No.

Am I happy with what we achieve, and am I enjoying the journey? Most definitely yes.

 

[LEC]

jokes aside i do think it's important to notice a difference, amateur riders can learn/train themselves to ride like this, it's not the reserve of people who do it for a living... that's how amateurs get good

Absolutely - it’s a trainable outcome.

 

[milliepops]

I was thinking about this, and although not necessarily a pro Vs amateur thing, the riders outlook will have a huge impact and so often comes down to amateur/pro.
As a pro, riding multiple horses alot of it will be muscle memory - they will be used to constantly making corrections without thinking about it. Also, if making a living from competition results they, and the horse, need to be on top form so they can't let things slide.

I am a hobby rider, riding is a way for me to de-stress. If I am constantly worrying about every little thing, and having to micro manage, that's not going to be fun for me. Obviously I want my horse to be able to maintain a rhythm/tempo but I want them to do it 'themselves' rather then rely on me.
The end result is the same, but have probably gone down completely different ways of getting there. I do not have the mental strength after a long day at work to micro manage my horse during a schooling session. I will focus and one or two things and probably just let the rest slide.
Will we progress up the levels as quick as we could? No. Will we do as well in competitions as we would if I was always on it, and insisted on perfection all the time? No.

Am I happy with what we achieve, and am I enjoying the journey? Most definitely yes.

it's a very personal decision, neither is wrong. for me, i am the opposite and i get a lot of fulfilment from the "pro" type of riding, but i am sadly very much not a professional rider i just think that it's important that amateur riders who WANT to progress quickly know that it's a think they can learn to do and is not some mystical thing that gets handed to you with your first cheque from an owner

 

[LEC]

I was thinking about this, and although not necessarily a pro Vs amateur thing, the riders outlook will have a huge impact and so often comes down to amateur/pro.
As a pro, riding multiple horses alot of it will be muscle memory - they will be used to constantly making corrections without thinking about it. Also, if making a living from competition results they, and the horse, need to be on top form so they can't let things slide.

I am a hobby rider, riding is a way for me to de-stress. If I am constantly worrying about every little thing, and having to micro manage, that's not going to be fun for me. Obviously I want my horse to be able to maintain a rhythm/tempo but I want them to do it 'themselves' rather then rely on me.
The end result is the same, but have probably gone down completely different ways of getting there. I do not have the mental strength after a long day at work to micro manage my horse during a schooling session. I will focus and one or two things and probably just let the rest slide.
Will we progress up the levels as quick as we could? No. Will we do as well in competitions as we would if I was always on it, and insisted on perfection all the time? No.

Am I happy with what we achieve, and am I enjoying the journey? Most definitely yes.

I think we all have days where we CBA so much but those are the days I go hacking as my expectations and having to be anal about everything can drop. If I am schooling then it’s 100% and is probably why I only school for around 20-30 mins as all I can sustain with concentrating and having a plan on what I want to do.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

At the moment not addressing this feels like the worst option - she is not fun to ride when she is ignoring me. Also I find making progress really rewarding. If I want to de-stress I'd also choose hacking not schooling. Schooling is only fun for me because I enjoy the focus and I like seeing things getting better.

One other thing I am puzzling over is how to track progress on something so hard to define as how well I feel she is going. I make notes on all my sessions and not long ago every session felt great whereas recently they have felt a bit more frustrating. Is that becasue she is less consistent or are my expecations higher now? How do people tell!

 

[milliepops]

It can be hard to be objective about your horse when your goalposts and own abilities are changing. Personally I do analyse my own sessions and try and notice things that are improving or more difficult. As a reference point I like picking a dressage test to ride through, I'll remember the bits that were dodgy before and hopefully find that elements have become easier.and having a long term trainer who can be unemotional and objective is another useful input.

 

[blodwyn1]

Have you tried rhythm beads? My mare finds the jingling relaxing and you can hear the rhythm easily.

 

[daffy44]

One other thing I am puzzling over is how to track progress on something so hard to define as how well I feel she is going. I make notes on all my sessions and not long ago every session felt great whereas recently they have felt a bit more frustrating. Is that becasue she is less consistent or are my expecations higher now? How do people tell!

This is one of the many million reasons why people progress more with consistent training with the same trainer, its very hard to be objective about yourself and your own horse, skills change, expectations change etc, but if you are seeing the same trainer regularly they will be the objective eyes on the ground that everyone needs.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I video a lesson a month and select short clip of the best work in the video. I then splice the clips together. Lottie has only been schooled since Dec - before that she was just hacked as part of her rehab. So I’ve got Dec/Jan/Feb. I can see a clear difference each month which is good. So I’ll keep doing that every month. The video at the end of the year should be interesting. Hopefully she will look very different then.

 

[milliepops]

Just a little thing about keeping the best bits.... I had it pointed out to me, one day after a rehab from injury when I was feeling like we weren't achieving something I'd previously felt, that I was remembering one moment in time which was not representative of what the horse really had established prior to her sick leave. That feeling was a flash in the pan, 0.05% of the horse's way of going. I was hanging onto that feeling but actually it was not realistic to expect my horse to "get back to that". I should be comparing current feel to everything we'd achieved except that moment

So while it's helpful to notice the sparks of progress, don't let it distort your expectations in real time. It's the "99.95% of the time" way of going that is representative of where you currently are. The 0.05% is the glimmer of hope ?

 

[milliepops]

^ managing expectations, essentially

 

[Ample Prosecco]

True but each month is a minute long continuous clip so I do think it is a vaguely meaningful yardstick of where we are each month. But it’s also useful I guess to reflect that as you expect more from the horse some of the basics fall apart for a bit. So yeah - how to evaluate overall progress - or lack of!

 

[milliepops]

Yeah my flash in the pan was most of a 45 minute lesson, but the point being... every other ride that week/month was not of the same quality. So it wasn't a fair representation of where we really were . If you (one) focus on the great bits you are being a bit unfair on the pair of you because the nature of progress is not linear, it's not that you'll never regain that feeling but about how to not find the interim period that is made up of great moments and longer spells of less-greatness frustrating ?

 

[Roxylola]

On the other hand though if you're not trying to recreate the best feel to date every time you're using the video to track visual progress its not such an issue. Its just a straight comparison the best minute from month to month and hopefully shows progress (albeit gradual)

 

[Ample Prosecco]

MP that's actually really reassuring and helpful because you're right - a couple of weeks ago I had a session that felt amazing and since then I have been feeling that that is where we 'should be' as opposed to recognising that that was a glimpse of what is possible but not a consistent level we have reached. So I have been geetting frustrated comparing what I have day to say with that best-ever session.

RL - yes that is how I am using it - it's random which lesson I get videoed. I have never captured a 'breakthrough' feel on the video. It does seem a reasonable way of tracking progress - among other metrics.

 

[milliepops]

That's exactly the point. Then you get despondent, none of us ride at our best when we're frustrated so it gets even harder to get the feeling again ?

Its an aspirational thing, that little glimpse of possibility, rather than something to beat yourself with.

 

[Bernster]

I’ve been going on about how much progress we’re making and yesterday it was a bit meh. He wasn’t very rideable and I struggled, got tense, he got tense…but I am forgetting the nice bit in the middle when we had some really nice work and were able to work on the next stage, which is smoother transitions. I’m not very good at remembering the better bits!

 

[CanteringCarrot]

It can be frustrating at times when you get a glimpse/feel of something amazing and then keep chasing after reproducing that moment and extending it to no avail. When you know that you and the horse can do something, it's frustrating in our minds when it can't always be like that, or when we can't find that moment again.

However, you have to be take pride in the fact that it is in there, somewhere, and if you did it once, you can likely do it again. Many things with riding take proper strength and balance from both horse and rider, and this takes time. Plus there are other aspects such as timing and feel, and some just have a better knack for it than others, so our progress isn't all the same. If it were easy and straight forward, we'd all be on dancing horses riding like Charlotte Dujardin.

It's the same for us when we begin or advance in our workouts or sports. We're not machines, and even those malfunction

I find that if you can be reflective and aware in your riding, it helps. Riders often think about what the horse is doing or "he/she is this or that" but what are you doing? What is your body and all of its parts actually doing? What are your aids actually saying and are your messages clear? Are the basics installed for what you're trying to accomplish?

Also, don't underestimate the power of praise and giving. There are some horses (most) that need to understand exactly what you mean and be shown that it is good when they do what you want. Only praise when needed and don't make it just become "noise" but if you show them the way, they'll often go there willingly.

I still recommend some pole work for strength and rhythm building. Try to ride the rhythm after the poles that you established over the poles. I'm forever using shoulder in and lateral work for everything too ? but remember, it might feel like micro managing at first, but it should get better. It's the same if I start lifting weights; the trainer is going to pick on my form, use of my body, and may have to coach me through many repetitions before I get the feeling, strength, and muscle memory to properly execute the lift myself. Even then I still might need a "touch up" from time to time to keep the basics in line.

The videos are a good idea too, so that if you think there is no progress, you can look back and see if that's actually the case or not.