Dressage Peeps - Help with rhythm/tempo

[Ambers Echo]

I thought for years that the inside rein created bend and the outside rein controlled speed

Ah you see I am still there!

 

[Pinkvboots]

And just when you learn inside leg outside rein your instructor then gets you riding squares using outside leg outside rein, then telling you to do it through the whole lesson.

I did really feel it had huge benefits but I'm still sort of learning when to use it when I'm on my own, I actually tried it with Louis and found he stayed much straighter and felt more through so I think I was doing it right ?

 

[daffy44]

Thanks Daffy. I think part of the issue is that I have done so much work with people like Mark Rashid and Buck Brannaman who (unless I have misunderstood) want to ride with virtually no contact. So 'lightness' and giving the rein to reward is something now deeply ingrained. Betsy Steiner works closely with Buck and so I know that is a road that gets to dressage success too. But it has never really married with anything else I have learned so I have just got myself in a muddle with it all. I have moved away from trying to apply stuff learned at demos/camps when there is no follow up, in favour of regular lessons with one person. Having weight in my hand feels wrong. But I need to get over that. Lottie actually seems to prefer a fairly firm contact according to my trainer who also rides her. I do feel like I am at least now on a road to better feel and riding. I hope!!

Re inside leg to outside hand, I know theoretically but that 'glimmering ember' moment when it becomes really real on a horse has not happened yet.

I am so literal and just can't feel what to do. I need to learn something mechanically then have to spend ages trying to feel it. Eventually I can but it take such a very long time. First time someone told me to appy an aid when the outisde hind was leaving the floor I was like 'what? How can I possibly know thwn that is". The idea that I could feel the horses legs was a revelation! I still sometimes have to visually check diaganols and canter leads.

In a lesson the other day I was being told to do all sorts of weird stuff with the left side of my body to address falling in. Until about 3 minutes in my RI said 'oh sorry I mean the right side!" And I had no clue that what she was saying had been utterly illogical. I was just trying to obey. Honestly if someone said 'open the hand' I'd probably just drop the rein unless I had learned what that meant previously. Ridiculous

Betsy Steiner certainly rides with a contact, and describes it at length in her books, so I wouldnt get hung up on that. As I said the key element to the contact is the consistency, it does not have to be strong at all, the amount of weight in your hand should be primarily decided by the horse, the rider must adapt to the horses preference. "Lightness" is a term with multiple definitions when it comes to riding, you can drop your reins and ride on the buckle and call it light because there is an absence of contact, but this is a million miles away from the lightness felt when a connected and engaged horse finds strength and balance, and becomes light through self carriage.

 

[milliepops]

And just when you learn inside leg outside rein your instructor then gets you riding squares using outside leg outside rein, then telling you to do it through the whole lesson.

that's the thing, you can't really learn riding as a robotic task because the body and mind you are sitting on will do different things on different days in different situations, and be different again as training progresses

sbloom has mentioned a few times that it takes several lifetimes to learn the groundwork type stuff, i would say that very much applies to riding... each time a horse has retired i have wished i could have that time again but starting from where i am now in terms of riding experience because you learn so much with each one, you could do a better job with it if you had a second chance. and then the next one helps you up another rung or 2... What I'd give to have Millie as a young horse again!! (I hope that I've maybe got as close as possible with Hera).

My personal feelings about the outside rein is it helps you feel, develop and improve connection, consistency, straightness and throughness. or at least the absence of it means you can't get those things I use both reins for speed control if a rein aid is needed. using inside rein for *bend* deliberately tends to end up with hollowing to the inside and a consequent loss of connection on the outside, (then loss of straightness etc ) though obviously it does have a role if you need to exaggerate the bend. at the moment i use direct inside rein bending to deliberately drift my horse to the outside when he's napping/spooking at something on the side. but it does not improve his way of going in any way, except to help me go in the direction i'm aiming at!!

 

[sbloom]

sbloom has mentioned a few times that it takes several lifetimes to learn the groundwork type stuff, i would say that very much applies to riding... !

ALL aspects of horses need three lifetimes....probably each!

Interestingly, the work I've been doing recently to help customers get their horses to push up in front usually leads to the horse allowing the reins to go slack.

 

[milliepops]

need more info there i think... i would not particularly count slack reins as a positive thing, unless they are slack where previously the horse was leaning in which case one of those pendulum things where you swing back past where you want to end up

 

[Pinkvboots]

that's the thing, you can't really learn riding as a robotic task because the body and mind you are sitting on will do different things on different days in different situations, and be different again as training progresses

sbloom has mentioned a few times that it takes several lifetimes to learn the groundwork type stuff, i would say that very much applies to riding... each time a horse has retired i have wished i could have that time again but starting from where i am now in terms of riding experience because you learn so much with each one, you could do a better job with it if you had a second chance. and then the next one helps you up another rung or 2... What I'd give to have Millie as a young horse again!! (I hope that I've maybe got as close as possible with Hera).

My personal feelings about the outside rein is it helps you feel, develop and improve connection, consistency, straightness and throughness. or at least the absence of it means you can't get those things I use both reins for speed control if a rein aid is needed. using inside rein for *bend* deliberately tends to end up with hollowing to the inside and a consequent loss of connection on the outside, (then loss of straightness etc ) though obviously it does have a role if you need to exaggerate the bend. at the moment i use direct inside rein bending to deliberately drift my horse to the outside when he's napping/spooking at something on the side. but it does not improve his way of going in any way, except to help me go in the direction i'm aiming at!!

I have a terrible habit of having a more slack inside rein but at least I still have the outside rein we do have a good laugh about it though.

 

[sbloom]

need more info there i think... i would not particularly count slack reins as a positive thing, unless they are slack where previously the horse was leaning in which case one of those pendulum things where you swing back past where you want to end up

It all depends doesn't it...if it allows the rider to "descente de main" in the classical style then it's all good, and if it's the first time that we work on this concept I don't care where the head and neck are, and many need to raise their head to begin with in order to push up, it's far from the finished article and is just to show the rider what can be done once you've de-rotated both of them. There would also, of course, be lots of other work, ridden and from the ground, to further work on connection and the horse following the hand (though definitely not with me, I'm there just for the one session).

 

[scats]

I used to have a dreadful habit of thinking I was ‘rewarding’ the horse by chucking the contact at it. Then a trainer stopped me and asked if I realised my reins weren’t confetti

Contact is a funny one because it varies from horse to horse. Polly likes a firm contact, if you ride with a softer hand she runs through you. Take up a nice firm contact and she suddenly gets this confidence, takes the bit and becomes rideable.
Millie prefers slightly softer. If I rode her with Polly-esque contact she’d not be happy.
I think learning to adapt is so crucial, but not always easy.

 

[j1ffy]

Contact is a very difficult thing to understand, you do need to have felt 'that' connection to understand what people are trying to explain. Although far less experienced than other people on the thread, I've trained three horses to Medium (two competitively) and I still have penny drop moments about it.

One of my early 'penny drop' moments was during a lesson on my Spanish trainer's schoolmaster stallion in a double bridle. Probably a bit like you OP, I had seen all the harmonious videos of people on a light contact performing beautiful movements. My Spanish trainer has trained Doma Vaquera champions, which involves riding with one hand and almost all the aids from the legs / seat. During one particular lesson 7 or 8 years ago I was really struggling with a few movements and Antonio kept saying 'contact! Contact!' but I was still aiming for a very light contact. I asked him to take the other end of the reins and show me how much contact he usually has on that horse, and I was very surprised at how firm the contact was (particularly on the snaffle rein). It wasn't as heavy as some dressage riders but it was a long way from what I expected.

As others have said on the thread, lightness isn't created by a light or 'floppy' contact but from a horse that engages the right muscles and carries itself and its rider effectively and consistently. Getting to that point requires clear direction from the rider, including demonstrating to the horse what you want from the contact as much as you would explain what you want from the leg aids. You'll see a lot of advice on here about how to sensitise your horse to the leg but very little about how to teach a horse the right reaction to the contact - it feels like people are afraid to talk about it in some forums as there is such a focus on 'let the horse drop into the outline' and other stronger comments. However you do need to be firm and clear at times.

FWIW I use my reins in a similar way to MP's description in post 94. Also, just as you wouldn't want to 'nag' a horse with your leg all the time, you don't want to 'nag' with the reins. If your horse is rushing / running through the reins you may need to give a firm aid with both reins then soften back to the consistent contact, otherwise you end up in a pulling match. I've been very pleased in the last couple of weeks as Chilli has found his rhythm in trot and the rushing / pulling is far less frequent, all achieved through consistent work to the contact and the odd 'oi' moment when he runs on too much.

Oh - one last thing that I've found! A bit like the 'lightness' point, I have also had a tendency to have my reins too long as I wanted the horse to stretch (particularly on Danny, my loan horse, and now with Chilli as both tend to curl up and go short in the neck) however this was causing my contact to be less consistent and my hands to come back by my hips. As soon as I shorten the reins and hold my hands in the right place the contact is 'there' and everything feels smoother, the horse begins going forward to the contact more confidently, and I can make smaller adjustments to the rhythm and pace.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Contact is a very difficult thing to understand, you do need to have felt 'that' connection to understand what people are trying to explain. Although far less experienced than other people on the thread, I've trained three horses to Medium (two competitively) and I still have penny drop moments about it.

One of my early 'penny drop' moments was during a lesson on my Spanish trainer's schoolmaster stallion in a double bridle. Probably a bit like you OP, I had seen all the harmonious videos of people on a light contact performing beautiful movements. My Spanish trainer has trained Doma Vaquera champions, which involves riding with one hand and almost all the aids from the legs / seat. During one particular lesson 7 or 8 years ago I was really struggling with a few movements and Antonio kept saying 'contact! Contact!' but I was still aiming for a very light contact. I asked him to take the other end of the reins and show me how much contact he usually has on that horse, and I was very surprised at how firm the contact was (particularly on the snaffle rein). It wasn't as heavy as some dressage riders but it was a long way from what I expected.

As others have said on the thread, lightness isn't created by a light or 'floppy' contact but from a horse that engages the right muscles and carries itself and its rider effectively and consistently. Getting to that point requires clear direction from the rider, including demonstrating to the horse what you want from the contact as much as you would explain what you want from the leg aids. You'll see a lot of advice on here about how to sensitise your horse to the leg but very little about how to teach a horse the right reaction to the contact - it feels like people are afraid to talk about it in some forums as there is such a focus on 'let the horse drop into the outline' and other stronger comments. However you do need to be firm and clear at times.

FWIW I use my reins in a similar way to MP's description in post 94. Also, just as you wouldn't want to 'nag' a horse with your leg all the time, you don't want to 'nag' with the reins. If your horse is rushing / running through the reins you may need to give a firm aid with both reins then soften back to the consistent contact, otherwise you end up in a pulling match. I've been very pleased in the last couple of weeks as Chilli has found his rhythm in trot and the rushing / pulling is far less frequent, all achieved through consistent work to the contact and the odd 'oi' moment when he runs on too much.

Oh - one last thing that I've found! A bit like the 'lightness' point, I have also had a tendency to have my reins too long as I wanted the horse to stretch (particularly on Danny, my loan horse, and now with Chilli as both tend to curl up and go short in the neck) however this was causing my contact to be less consistent and my hands to come back by my hips. As soon as I shorten the reins and hold my hands in the right place the contact is 'there' and everything feels smoother, the horse begins going forward to the contact more confidently, and I can make smaller adjustments to the rhythm and pace.

I agree with a lotttt of this post.

I got a bit panicky at times when I felt like I had too much contact/weight on my snaffle rein in the double. I thought that this is now 2 bits and could be harsh so I was tip toeing around and trying not to touch my horse ? when in reality he felt quite comfortable in the bridle and was willingly putting weight in my hands (has a tendency to curl or be too light). Tbf, I was new to the double and it was ingrained in me that anything other than a snaffle could be harsh and to be extremely careful. So I was overly cautious. Of course any bit is harsh in the wrong hands!

Since my horse has a tendency to curl or hide from the bit, some people want to back off all pressure on him and use their leg to "get the nose out" and this doesn't work. He just "runs" and gets hectic. He has to accept my hands and legs. Counterintuitive perhaps but I rode with more hand and leg. He soon wanted to uncurl into the contact and began to put some weight in my hand and not run away from my leg. Which sort of follows some theory I read about not letting them hide from pressure behind the vertical.

Self carriage is not about a slack or floppy rein, and yes, the horse engages the right muscles and essentially carries (but does not take away) the bit. I cannot describe the feeling so well but it feels balanced and lovely. When a horse achieves this, a lot of other things fall into place with the training, IME because self carriage is a key component.

I can ride my horse with one hand maintly off of my body (legs, seat, core) but it wasn't built overnight from slack reins.

I also tend to think more about the horse reaching forward and up than I do about "dropping" into a contact. Partially because of the type of horse I have and also because there is an obsession with "forward downward" here and it's mainly horses going around on their forehand, but that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

 

[tristar]

It all depends doesn't it...if it allows the rider to "descente de main" in the classical style then it's all good, and if it's the first time that we work on this concept I don't care where the head and neck are, and many need to raise their head to begin with in order to push up, it's far from the finished article and is just to show the rider what can be done once you've de-rotated both of them. There would also, of course, be lots of other work, ridden and from the ground, to further work on connection and the horse following the hand (though definitely not with me, I'm there just for the one session).

i think i work on the concept of descente de main but following the horse, or more nearer the truth follow the offered contact and when it comes good it feels like just capturing all the impulsion and holding it as soft a bird in the hand for as long the horse is there

i do a long stretchy walk almost at the limit of contact, and control! then ride up in walk to ask the head and neck be carried by the shoulders of the horse stepping under on a light contact, that does not make the steps shorter

 

[Ambers Echo]

Getting to that point requires clear direction from the rider, including demonstrating to the horse what you want from the contact as much as you would explain what you want from the leg aids. You'll see a lot of advice on here about how to sensitise your horse to the leg but very little about how to teach a horse the right reaction to the contact - it feels like people are afraid to talk about it in some forums as there is such a focus on 'let the horse drop into the outline' and other stronger comments. However you do need to be firm and clear at times.

I've definitely felt this and not just on HHO but also IRL. I have had instructors whose mantra has been that when you are riding in balance the horse will naturally come into an outline. But you still have to develop good hands! And how can you do that if people keep telling you to forget about the head and 'just keep your hands still' and 'don't fiddle'. Thats all fine unless 'don't fiddle' is interpreted to mean never adjust what you are doing in response to your horse's behaviour. And keep your hands still means they are fixed and bouncing. I am slowly beginning to grasp at least the first onion layer of understanding. There will be many more!

 

[tristar]

there`s a difference between still and stiff and still and feeling, being aware of the tiny variations that need you to talk to the horse when it needs you to chat, it might be saying that your arms have gone stiff for example, so if you ignore it it learns not to bother asking for more softness, but if you do answer, it learns a way of asking for what it needs you to do