Dressage Peeps - Help with rhythm/tempo

[Roxylola]

wrt the original question. I read something Carl wrote about knowing exactly how many strides a long side, a 20m circle etc takes for your horse that way you know you are riding accurately and can be aware very quickly of changes in tempo, inaccuracies in circle size etc

I also use poles at specific points like 4 fence posts in from the corner at top and bottom of long sides (or on your letters) etc, count strides between them then try ride for the same number consistently. I also use this to play with strides asking for longer and shorter steps. You can just use letters but having a physical marker makes it more consistent I find

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Revisiting this thread as once again I find that my dressage is by far the weakest link in eventing. Just like with Amber. It's obviously MY weak link not Lottie's.

I think the most helpfu nugget that has stayed with me is to ride my own rhythm and hope she adjusts under me. This helps me not over-correct but keep adjustments small - though she still needs me to ride every stride. On a good day when she's feeling co-operative that can work ok and we definitely get our best work that way. But there are still often times where she just tries to take over again and again and again. She is not listening and constantly speeding up. It feels so rude! She has gradually got much better in canter and is now actually better in canter than trot so I don't think its'a balance thing. I think it's a 'trotting slowly and calmly is boring' thing. I have tried getting much tougher on her when she blows through the bridle and that sometimes leads to marked improvements and she starts listening more. And occasionally it upsets her and leads to running more.

Eg on 3 occaisons I have tried an exercuse of trotting a circle at A, walking across centre line and picking up trot again to try and prevent her speeding up as I cross the school which is a real tendency of hers. (She often tries to speed up whenver she leaves the track and crosses an open space in the school whether on a circle or across a diagonal).

The first time this worked well. She came across the school, ignored the walk aid and got halted and backed up 2-3 times. The she started anticipating a walk transition and over time we just slowed but not to walk, then just rebalanced half way and eventually maintained trot rhythm across the school. So we got there in the end though the halt/back up did not feel good as she was fighting me. 2nd time she again started off not coming back to walk and again we did halt/backup. But after that she just speeded up even more in anticipation of a strong aid and seemed really tense. So it dd not work at all. Then today it worked well again - eventually. Though I do hate getting strong and want to find a better way than basically having a fight with her becasue she literally won't come back to walk if she's of a mind to power on. Before trying the exercise across the open side of a school (her problem area) I did about 10 trot/walk transitions on the track to get her set up for success but that made no differerence to her attitude or understanding.

My RI who rides her regularely says she genunely is challengng and frustrating to ride in that she is a different horse every day and you need to adjust to whichever Lottie appears on any given day. She says she is also the kind of horse who will argue and you just need to work through it to get to good work on the other side. But it does not feel good to do things that way.

Bizarrely she has become 100X more rideable round jump courses. She listens, she waits, she lets me adjust the canter. Which is great but I would really like her rideable on what - on paper - looks like an easier task of just trotting round a school doing a few basic school figures! She is even more rideable in jump warm ups that she is schooling on the flat. Which is a complete reversal as she used to be totally wired if I schooled her with jumps up. So all that has improved dramatically but we are still at the very beginning when it comes to basic schooling. It's like she is bored by it, can't be bothered and just wants to do her own thing.

Any other tips?

 

[milliepops]

2 things jump out at this for me
1 being, don't expect to ever not have to ride every stride. Even the toppest top riders are always riding every stride. it's just that the interventions needed become more subtle as the horse becomes more sensitive to the aids, more consistent in what it is able to do, and more established in what it understands.

2. your desire to ride quietly is a good one. but when the horse doesn't understand ( and to me, a horse that inconsistently responds to the rider's aids is one that doesn't properly understand, deep down - whether it doesn't understand the instruction or the *importance* of the instruction ) you do need to make things fairly black and white until they do. I do not advocate being rough, but being unmistakably clear and consistent in your riding.

having made improvements in the jumping is really encouraging. Do you think having the jumps there makes you subconsiously ride a bit different. perhaps with more purpose - because for example if a jump is 4 strides away, you will purposefully make 4 strides fit there. Flatwork is less obviously target-driven in that respect so it's easy to let things slide a bit. are you maybe subconsciously also getting a bit bored by the flatwork?

 

[Roxylola]

2 things jump out at this for me
1 being, don't expect to ever not have to ride every stride. Even the toppest top riders are always riding every stride. it's just that the interventions needed become more subtle as the horse becomes more sensitive to the aids, more consistent in what it is able to do, and more established in what it understands.

MP has pretty much covered it all, but that was my first thought too. ?

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Thanks. The riding every stride is interesting. I had imagined you get to a point where the horse does the job and you sit on her looking pretty! Well , not quite, but at least a bit more hands off. But perhaps not.

Re the 2nd point, I often have exercises that make me be particular and focused - eg the walk across the CL or a halt at X. And the test practice is precise. On the other hand, quite often in lessons, my RI will say to take my time and correct gradually. Which is very different than the make it happen NOW and HERE approach. And I do that in schooling too. So I do wonder whether she is confused. On the other hand my RI also sometims says 'be firm she's being rude' - so that triggers a stronger reaction in me. I guess she can read from the ground when I should patiently adjust and give her time to respond and when I have to put in a clearer boundary and say 'oi, no that' s not acceptable'. Whereas I don't have that feel. Or maybe I do - as I do use both approaches at different times. So perhaps it will just feel different depending on what I decide to do on any given day and that that's ok? And perhaps the getting upset and running off behaviour is when I use firmness when patience was the better choice that day but I misread her??

I am not bored. Frustrated definitely, but those moments of harmony are magical and I have never loved dressage like I'm loving it now. I can really begin to see the appeal of the dark side! I just wosh I was not so rubbish at it. I really struggle with it. It feel so, so hard. Jumping is much easier.

 

[Skib]

When doing ther counter canter bit I concentrated on a sewing machine rhythm. I suspect that a sewing machine may have a slightly 3 time beat to it?

 

[milliepops]

the making it happen thing was what i was getting at rather than riding particular lines etc. I had a bit of a lightbulb when i started riding tempis, Millie had been very difficult to teach a correct change after rather too many years with instructors who insisted we get the canter "perfect" before starting changes (a subject i will happily rant about quite a bit but not relevant here!)

anyway. I had a schoolmaster lesson with someone who works with my regular trainer and she said to me that i was riding hopefully rather than with purpose. She told me to go and ride tempis on Millie, which i thought was daft because if a horse does one change badly then what business have you got trying to link more than one together?
Turns out she was dead right, because it made me take charge of the exercise, i couldn't arrive at X and tentatively hope Millie would do a change, i had to start straight off the track, take charge and try and ride a sequence before we hit the track on the opposite side. Lo and behold Millie woke up to my aids and everything started to slip into place.

It highlighted to me the difference you/we can sometimes fall into with flatwork. Unlike knowing we have to get from one side of the fence to the other and going off to make it happen, we're so concerned with not upsetting the applecart, trying to encourage the horse to be relaxed and in a rhythm and happy and through and so on, that sometimes things become unclear and we lose purpose. the horse gets unsure and becomes inconsistent.
Having the same mentality as attacking a coffin on the XC can sometimes produce better results. just the change in attitude from pretty please keep being nice and feeling nice... to this is how we should be going, this is what the task is, this is the expectation... make it happen...

yes there will be times when giving the horse time to process is important and other times when you need to be a bit more assertive - that's the nature of training an animal instead of riding a quad bike but if you are not confrontational when firm then i think even if you get it a bit wrong, you aren't going to create a problem. Making it happen does not have to equal being too hard on the horse. it can just be a change in the way you think.

 

[Bernster]

I’ve mentioned before that we’re having similar experiences in some ways. I’m enjoying them too and it doesn’t put me off, it just keeps me on my toes!

Couple of things from what’s happening with me - are you tensing or bracing at these points? She might need to be kept really busy to get her brain on side, varying the exercises and changing it all the time. Being better when jumping might be due to greater focus and variety, and/or less tension from you. And ride the horse you’ve got on the day, which may be different each time.

These are all things I’m working through currently. It’s going to make me a far better rider as long as I can keep at it ! So yesterday, when I lost Bertie a bit, we didn’t do an exercise more than twice as he anticipates, and we kept mixing it up, ditched the canter work for a while, and I got him back focussing. There’s def been an improvement, or maybe there’s just a change in what I need to work on. It has been the downward transitions from canter to trot. That was working really well yesterday, yay, but I can’t rest in my laurels as then it switched to him anticipating the canter transition and trying to whoosh off in the trot. That’s a new one to tackle. ?‍. Good job I’m enjoying it so much, and adding more tools to my toolkit!

 

[Slightlyconfused]

Millie has basically covered it.


My appy gelding is very sensitive and can really worry. But this does not mean i ride him carefully because of that.

He works so much better with boundaries, i ask nicely and if its not been given straight away or a half arswd effort has been given instead then its asked again a lot more firmly with a "i expect you to to do this NOW" type.of ask.

At 16:3 he has a big stride and can really rush as he gets overtaken by himself so i have to make sure that i am riding and setting up to asking correctly before i ask. I ride every stride, correct when needs correcting but i am always there. I don't once he is in the temp and rythm i want back off. Leg is still on to guide and confirm this is what i want.

Not being consistant in my approach makes him worry and rush. If my posistion is not right for what i am wanting to ask i will not get it, just an upset horse.

 

[scats]

I made the mistake with Polly of not keeping my leg on. She is hot to the point of boiling over and when she boils over it’s not pleasant- slams on, goes up etc and I realised that I was subconsciously keeping my leg off because I was worried about tipping her over the edge. I was also being too soft in my contact, for fear of getting in to a fight with her, but the reality was she was controlling the speed and running through the bridle and I was a mere passenger.
I found that I actually need to keep my leg on more with her and take a stronger contact. That way I found I actually had more control over her speed and tempo. If she tries to run through the bridle, she gets a firmer contact and my leg goes on in a supportive sort of manner. It felt counterintuitive at first, but it gave me back the control and gave her a definite ‘leader’. The running through the bridle doesn’t instantly stop, but the feeling changes to one of her taking the contact forward strongly, but me being in control of the engine. She doesn’t like not having me on the end of the rein, or me being there too light, and I think it’s an insecurity that causes her to rush/run. Once I get her between my hand and leg, she then responds far better to my seat and my riding to control tempo.

Her and Millie couldn’t be more different though. Millie is prone to being lazy so I have to ride leg very much off or she will sit behind the leg and you won’t even notice she’s doing it.

 

[milliepops]

yup. my loan horse is one of those sneaky behind the leg but rushing off horses (i think they are very common tbh, because the horse scoots off it seems counterintuitive that it's behind your leg really) and has to be ridden forward to stop jinking about, once he's thinking forward *on my terms* the rest is much easier to influence.

 

[Goldenstar]

Hot horse leg on ,cool horse leg off IME experience this always how it pans out you need to hug the hot horse more than the cool one , cool horses need to learn sharp reactions from small aids and if nothing happens you need to get on it fast .
While riders doing higher level tests will be adjusting ,preparing helping out the balance ,the best combinations are not having to ride to keep the horse going forward enough .
The horse must think forward for its self particularly as the training progresses and we encourage this a every step in the training .

I think often backwardness in the test arena sneaks in when the rider is having to support the horse to much with its balance .

 

[Ample Prosecco]

That makes no sense to me at all! So clearly I don't know how to ride a running off horse.

She was better today. I tried to blend the 'be patient' approach with the 'clear boundaries' approach. So I was always riding school figures with a focus on accuracy. And in between transitions, I'd be patient and just ride my own rhythm and wait for her to find that, but where she needed to transition and was given a clear request which was set up several strides out, and she still ignored me she got halted and backed up very firmly, then repeated the move. In the test there is a canter-trot transition at F and a trot-walk at K. All the way from B to F I was preparing her to trot but she blew past F and got halted and backed. 2nd time she did trot at F but blew past K and was again halted and backed. But I did only need to do that twice and most of the time she was more with me.

Whether that is the case tomorrow at a busy, buzzy event is another matter but we shall see! Weather looks awful tonight so I am leaving her in overnight before an early start, and she is in today too because of the sugar in the grass. So she will have been in 24 hours when we set off which is not ideal but hey ho.

 

[milliepops]

the thing about riding a hotter horse with your leg on is that they have to learn to accept it. if you ride cautiously with your leg off then you never get to the point where you can give an aid without fearing that the horse is going to explode. They have to learn to tolerate it otherwise you are not really ever going to be in control, firstly, and secondly you won't ever be able to ride any movements that need a leg aid
learning a quiet acceptance of the leg is often a key component of dealing with the tension you can get with a buzzy one. they are usually tight in the body when buzzing off so that's why lateral work is so effective, you get the double benefit of relaxing the body through the movements and also dealing with acceptance of the leg.

 

[Goldenstar]

I think the horse AE describes needs to be ridden with great attention to the rhythm
And leave the tempo for further down the line .
Rhythm always comes first then as the balance develops you can influence the speed of the steps
When a horse has a weak sense of rhythm the rider has to attend to it very diligently and rhythm is one of the things on th top of my list when I look at horse to work with that’s going in between the white boards .
The ability to change tempo can be developed and balance and tempo develop in my experience hand in hand .
You should always know how many strides you take to get where in the arena for instance coming to a quarter marker now many strides to the curve of the turn then straight how many to Centre marker then the same number to the next curve same number in the curve same number to quarter marker and so on .
Circles should be divided into quarters and you need to know how many strides per quarter in each size of circle in each pace this is how to increase your marks and the ride ability of the horses .
It’s really worth attending to memorising this and making it second nature .

 

[Goldenstar]

the thing about riding a hotter horse with your leg on is that they have to learn to accept it. if you ride cautiously with your leg off then you never get to the point where you can give an aid without fearing that the horse is going to explode. They have to learn to tolerate it otherwise you are not really ever going to be in control, firstly, and secondly you won't ever be able to ride any movements that need a leg aid
learning a quiet acceptance of the leg is often a key component of dealing with the tension you can get with a buzzy one. they are usually tight in the body when buzzing off so that's why lateral work is so effective, you get the double benefit of relaxing the body through the movements and also dealing with acceptance of the leg.

I agree and the leg yield with the head to wall is a real favourite of mine with horses like this once you get them leg yielding calmly (ish and it’s often ish ) you can then work adjust the flexion from side to side and this really can get them beginning to give up their bodies to be worked

 

[Roxylola]

That makes no sense to me at all!

So, 2 things, first on a hot horse, if the leg is there all the time they don't get a shock when you use it. And you're riding leg to hand - the leg is there to support them and help them it's not like cruise control in the car. The horse should stay in my pace rhythm and tempo til I ask for that to change but leg and hand are still taking an active role in creating and maintaining connection.
Second, I see this a lot more than I'd like rider in canter, horse for whatever reason speeds up and instead of riding forward to rebalance and reestablish connection the rider just applies the brakes, often coming back to trot or walk and then giving the horse a pat to "settle" them. Horse quickly learns that 6 strides of fast gets them out of work and whizzing off becomes a favourite evasion.

 

[Slightlyconfused]

the thing about riding a hotter horse with your leg on is that they have to learn to accept it. if you ride cautiously with your leg off then you never get to the point where you can give an aid without fearing that the horse is going to explode. They have to learn to tolerate it otherwise you are not really ever going to be in control, firstly, and secondly you won't ever be able to ride any movements that need a leg aid
learning a quiet acceptance of the leg is often a key component of dealing with the tension you can get with a buzzy one. they are usually tight in the body when buzzing off so that's why lateral work is so effective, you get the double benefit of relaxing the body through the movements and also dealing with acceptance of the leg.

This 100%

Mine can br sharpe if you don't have the leg on and he drops behind the vertical. Leg on he knows i am there and it is another boundary for him.

 

[spacefaer]

Fwiw, I find it a lot easier to find a rhythm in a pace when I've got something else to do. Solely focussing on the rhythm by trotting about with some transitions/change of direction puts too much pressure on and I find myself riding backwards and a little anally.

I find it easier to (for example) ride leg yield or shoulder fore, either in a straight line or on a circle, and gives a better rhythm without forcing it.

I was taught by a classically trained show jumper years ago who expected his horses to "trot until asked to do something else" but that wasn't without hi s ongoing intervention as required.

He had a feeling established in his head of how he wanted the horse to go and then he adjusted when the horse varied from it. The expectations of the mental feel changed depending on the horse but it was based on the same principles.

His horses powered from behind into a consistent contact - if you tried to adjust by fiddling, nothing happened. It was all about hindquarter power, rider's seat, legs and core strength. A big shock to me to ride his horses coming as I was from traditional PC/BHS at the time.

 

[sbloom]

I've not read the whole thing but in order for a horse to be balanced it must be stable, and fast tempo or long stride length is the enemy of stability. I was chatting with a brilliant rehab trainer whose work is based on Science of Motion and she was SO hot on that, that we don't stabilise our horses first so they keep going with a rotated spine and ribcage, weighting one shoulder. To fix these sorts of issues the tempo and stride length generally needs to be hugely reduced. More a general discussion point

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Not exactly a lightbulb moment today - more a dimly flickering ember ..... BUT this thread and the other one on riding on the bit or whatever it's called (which I have felt entirely unqualified to comment on!) sparked an idea about consistency of contact. And yes I know I have heard it 1000 times but sometimes it takes 1001 times to suddenrly hear it differently. I've always understood 'consistency' to mean keeping my hands still and forward. And also to give when she softens to me as the way of saying 'yes that is what I want'.. Which actually has created 2 problems! Giving provides some inconsistency and still (rigid) hands are also inconsistent. So from her POV the rein contact is on,off,on,off as she moves. I have also been being told to 'give the inside rein' because I tend to fix on it and ride 'inside leg to outside hand' - (Which I still don't really get). But MP I think commented that horses are often behind the leg even if they are rushing and need to be ridden forward INTO A CONSISTENT CONTACT.

So today I have just focused on the feel of her mouth in my hands and keeping that feeling consistent. Not giving, just holding evenly with both reins. And she kept dropping behind the leg. I was using much more leg while keeping the hand there. She argued for a bit but then settled and there were moments where she travelled a bit more forward but it felt different - she was taking the contact down and forward and powering rather than leaning and running. So I think I need more hand than I have had before - but firm and consistent rather than the combination of wishy washy/ inconsistent or fixed and pulling back. Dressage is so hard!

 

[spacefaer]

Yes!!! you've got it!!
Now to repeat it ??

 

[milliepops]

Definitely a lightbulb moment there.
You're right, there's no need to give when she softens. She created her own reward BY softening. It became more comfortable in that moment. By maintaining a consistent feel you help her to understand the question better when she answers it correctly ?

 

[Bernster]

Dressage is blooming hard! There’s always something to work on, you get one bit ok and some other bit then shows up as an issue. But that’s part of the joy, as long as you keep making progress and enjoying it. I felt like I had to ride every stride of our test yesterday but apparently you couldn’t tell, thankfully!

 

[daffy44]

Well done for today!

I think maybe you need to ask more questions when you are being taught, if you are told to do something eg inside leg to outside hand, and you dont really get it, thats absolutely fine, but ask, you really need to understand clearly what is being said in order to put it into practise, especially when you are riding without your instructor there.

Contact is one of the most difficult things, and I could probably write a lengthy essay on it! But thats not helpful, I teach a lot for Riding Clubs, and with people who are riding at prelim, and so I have some simple basic rules for starting to understand and establish a good contact.

Firstly, most people like to make a soft contact by locking their arms and opening their fingers, you need to reverse this. Dont lock your hands, but keep your fingers closed, and have soft arms that flex through the joints and move to enable you to follow the horses movement.

The strength of the contact varies from horse to horse, its your job as rider to find out how strong/light your horse prefers and then adapt your riding to what your horse prefers. The thing that doesnt vary is the consistency, thats what gives you elasticity. You need to concentrate on each hand always feeling each side of your horses mouth, remember this can be soft, it shouldnt be a death grip, but it must be consistent, its no good if it comes and goes, and that includes if the horse softens. As MP said the horse softening is creating ts own reward, you dont need to chuck everything away, because that is not rewarding the horse.

Dont worry too much in the beginning about the head position of the horse, focus on each hand always feeling and following each side of the horses mouth, and then ride forward into this consistency. Its this riding forward that will start to ask the horse to work through its entire body, not just drop its nose/hollow in response to what your hands are doing, always think about riding the whole horse, not just the head.

I hope thats helpful.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Thanks Daffy. I think part of the issue is that I have done so much work with people like Mark Rashid and Buck Brannaman who (unless I have misunderstood) want to ride with virtually no contact. So 'lightness' and giving the rein to reward is something now deeply ingrained. Betsy Steiner works closely with Buck and so I know that is a road that gets to dressage success too. But it has never really married with anything else I have learned so I have just got myself in a muddle with it all. I have moved away from trying to apply stuff learned at demos/camps when there is no follow up, in favour of regular lessons with one person. Having weight in my hand feels wrong. But I need to get over that. Lottie actually seems to prefer a fairly firm contact according to my trainer who also rides her. I do feel like I am at least now on a road to better feel and riding. I hope!!

Re inside leg to outside hand, I know theoretically but that 'glimmering ember' moment when it becomes really real on a horse has not happened yet.

I am so literal and just can't feel what to do. I need to learn something mechanically then have to spend ages trying to feel it. Eventually I can but it take such a very long time. First time someone told me to appy an aid when the outisde hind was leaving the floor I was like 'what? How can I possibly know thwn that is". The idea that I could feel the horses legs was a revelation! I still sometimes have to visually check diaganols and canter leads.

In a lesson the other day I was being told to do all sorts of weird stuff with the left side of my body to address falling in. Until about 3 minutes in my RI said 'oh sorry I mean the right side!" And I had no clue that what she was saying had been utterly illogical. I was just trying to obey. Honestly if someone said 'open the hand' I'd probably just drop the rein unless I had learned what that meant previously. Ridiculous

 

[Bernster]

Oh well, the ridiculous language of riding is another matter altogether! And we’ve had threads on here about it. Once someone kept shouting ‘more contact’ at me and I just held onto the reins harder and harder until I had a death grip. Turns out she meant shorten my reins…?

 

[oldie48]

AE I feel your pain. I have described my riding style in lessons as "riding by numbers" (rather like "painting by numbers") because I've had too many trainers who have effectively ridden the horse for me from the ground. I have then found myself ending a lesson with a horse going very sweetly but I've not really learned much. I also think it's very difficult to marry different styles of riding unless you are extremely experienced and can pick and choose from both with confidence. I can't. I wish I had a fiver for every time I've been told to ride from inside leg to outside hand, I'd be rich but I never really got it until quite recently. When I first started riding Mr D, I found I was struggling to get a decent 20m circle in trot. I'd never had a major problem before because my horses generally just went along with me. I spent rather a lot of time doing 20m circles and i think the penny has now well and truly dropped! I've been doing a bit of UA dressage writing lately and tbh I very much doubt that most of the riders I've seen are riding inside leg to outside hand!

 

[milliepops]

i think the outside rein in general is probably one of the most poorly understood aids tbh!

 

[oldie48]

I thought for years that the inside rein created bend and the outside rein controlled speed, I don't think "straightness" was ever mentioned and I had absolutely no idea why anyone would want a horse to go sideways. I spent an awful lot of time in blissful ignorance of how little I understood (unconscious incompetence) and after years of lessons I think I'm still only in conscious incompetence!