Dressage EG and Glocks ToTo Jr score over 86% in the KUR

[Caol Ila]

It's really complicated with about a million variables, isn't it? The pros might push their horses harder than ammys, and there might be trade offs between big movement and longterm soundness, but without data, it's hard to draw any conclusions, beyond the bleeding obvious point that pushing anyone, horse or human, to the edges of their athletic potential is likely to increase chances of injury. Still, the pros know a hell of a lot more about conditioning and muscle building than many ammys and the good ones take more care to strengthen their animals. Even the most well-intentioned horse owners do stupid stuff like three-hour trail rides with lots of trot and canter after months of not doing much riding at all. Is a carefully conditioned international GP horse at more risk of injury than that?

 

[milliepops]

It's really complicated with about a million variables, isn't it? The pros might push their horses harder than ammys, and there might be trade offs between big movement and longterm soundness, but without data, it's hard to draw any conclusions, beyond the bleeding obvious point that pushing anyone, horse or human, to the edges of their athletic potential is likely to increase chances of injury. Still, the pros know a hell of a lot more about conditioning and muscle building than many ammys. Even the most well-intentioned horse owners do stupid stuff like three-hour trail rides with lots of trot and canter after months of not doing much riding at all.

the most painful watching i have had in recent years has not been top horse sport, it's been the local RC show
so I think it's right to pay attention to where pros/training practices etc potentially lead to unsoundness. But I don't think those who aren't that fussed about watching elite horse sports are going to be that influenced by them, yet, as you say, they might well be keeping dobbin going a lot longer than is ethical, or not pay attention to correct conditioning, or, as per LEC's thread, not keeping the horse in a generally fit state to begin with. like you say, we have no useful data about the size of any of these problems.

 

[milliepops]

should temper that by saying that obviously no one intends to mangle their horse or cause it to suffer. sometimes these threads end up a bit holier than thou. but its something that i think it's impossible to escape from, even with the best of intentions we probably all compromise our horses one way or the other on occasion, or simply suffer a dose of bad luck.

 

[ycbm]

Didn’t mean to post, sorry.

 

[tristar]

It's really complicated with about a million variables, isn't it? The pros might push their horses harder than ammys, and there might be trade offs between big movement and longterm soundness, but without data, it's hard to draw any conclusions, beyond the bleeding obvious point that pushing anyone, horse or human, to the edges of their athletic potential is likely to increase chances of injury. Still, the pros know a hell of a lot more about conditioning and muscle building than many ammys and the good ones take more care to strengthen their animals. Even the most well-intentioned horse owners do stupid stuff like three-hour trail rides with lots of trot and canter after months of not doing much riding at all. Is a carefully conditioned international GP horse at more risk of injury than that?

looking at totilas`s last sortie in the arena, hordes clapping, rath patting his neck , and there was the poor sod hobbling around for all the world to see. amateur and pro alike

its not just big movement that`s the problem, the whole structure of the confo, ie long legs often glorified in ads of horses for sale, combine big movement and long legs, in horses not fundamentally built to work sitting and many from bloodlines that have cart horse only a few generations ago, and have a late developmental age of maturity is a huge concern, regarding is the type of horse used, are they set up to stay sound.

 

[Roxylola]

Horses break for a variety of reasons. At higher levels of training it becomes more noticeable inevitably. At a most basic level a horse could be sound in the field and unsound when asked to trot a small circle.
There are some steps in the original video that are not so rhythmical, I'm not sure I can call that an unsoundness. In general, I don't think we have been breeding for longevity in our competition horses for a variety of reasons but I also think that is changing somewhat again now.
Perhaps one of the biggest things I'll take from the whole Totilas situation is that it's no good only having one tool kit and expecting every horse you ride to conform to that, nor is it good for your horse for you to be the only person that can ride them. Better in some ways to be a jack of all trades maybe

 

[Cortez]

Nobody is going to invest 100's of thousands (often more) and many years of extreme effort into a horse for dressage with the intention of causing it to be unsound. For everyone saying "oh, it only stayed sound until it was 14/15" or whatever, mid teens is when a dressage horse is reaching its peak at GP, after that it's performance is going to naturally decline. How many human athletes are still competing or uninjured in their 40's/50's? Expecting Totilas, or Valegro, or any top GP horse to be still springing around competitively in their late teens or 20's is a bit mad really. I'm a bit old, and a bit lame; I can still ride the movements, but no way am I going to be capable of (or want to) ride at the highest levels any more.

 

[scats]

I’ve always thought that getting a GP horse to mid-teens still sound is pretty impressive. They weren’t designed to do a) that type of work b) that type of work with the added weight of a rider on them.
I certainly wouldn’t think any less of a pro rider if the struggled to keep a GP horse sound beyond 15 or 16.

Would these horses stay sounder longer if they weren’t doing that level of work? Possibly.
Would they exist at all if it wasn’t for them being bred to do this job? No.
Blimey, I’ve struggled to keep horses sound who wouldn’t have known hard work if they fell over it (albeit these were field related injuries).

 

[Cortez]

I wonder how many leisure horses would pass an FEI trot up?

 

[palo1]

I wonder how many leisure horses would pass an FEI trot up?

Erm....depending on the rider/owner and discipline, I really wouldn't like to answer that!!

 

[Roxylola]

I wonder how many leisure horses would pass an FEI trot up?

Never mind the horse, I'm pretty sure I'm functionally/mechanically lame. My run certainly is not level, rhythmic or straight. But I'm not in pain although I might be if someone insisted on making me level and equal etc all of sudden or if I suddenly increased my exercise level
I think there are probably a lot of horses who are basically the same as me, able to do the work at a level they are comfortable with but if they were asked to do much more might struggle

 

[daffy44]

As Cortez says, horses are fragile and excellent at a bit of self harm at times, and to say a horse that has injured itself in the field is lacking something and shouldnt be bred from is faintly ridiculous, accidents happen, and they can be just that, an accident. Horses of all work levels from none to international GP can be injured, mistakes can be made across the board because we are all human and therefore we can make a mistake, it doesnt mean that the vast majority of horse owners/riders are not trying their very best to give their horses the best care possible.

There are a fair few top level international horses competing well into their later teens, and I think this can be attributed to excellent care, an intrinsically tough horse and a bit of luck, but it doesnt mean the international horse who ends its career slightly earlier hasnt recieved the same level of care etc, but as others have said there are so many variables.

 

[shortstuff99]

Here is a training clip from today of the Lusitano stallion that I posted further up a year on. He really is one to watch for me.

https://www.facebook.com/216208211868165/posts/1715052528650385

 

[tristar]

i would not breed from a horse that did not meet my own criterea, 2 of the main ones are, 1, it must be able to gallop freely when turned out and leap around, turn, explode, and twist, leap etc without falling over, if it cant do that i`m not interested, it really needs to know what its doing with its feet, i`ve done this with mares when they were with other horses , the others would slip and sometimes fall trying to copy.

2 , when newly backed soon as it knows the basics, it has to go out on its own and pass everything

i don`t think that is even faintly ridiculous, as they as my own so i make the decision to breed or not

 

[Mule]

no absolutely. but I think what GS was getting at, and what has been discussed on here before, is that ALL disciplines incl horses that hardly do any work at all, have issues with lameness, welfare concerns and injury. but it's fashionable on here and elsewhere to simply point to horses ridden by pros and say they are the ones who do all the damage.

I had a field ornament who developed navicular

 

[daffy44]

i would not breed from a horse that did not meet my own criterea, 2 of the main ones are, 1, it must be able to gallop freely when turned out and leap around, turn, explode, and twist, leap etc without falling over, if it cant do that i`m not interested, it really needs to know what its doing with its feet, i`ve done this with mares when they were with other horses , the others would slip and sometimes fall trying to copy.

2 , when newly backed soon as it knows the basics, it has to go out on its own and pass everything

i don`t think that is even faintly ridiculous, as they as my own so i make the decision to breed or not

And what happens if the horse fulfills both your criteria, and after lets say ten years, one day whilst having a wild time in the field happens to fall over accidently and hurt itself? Is that horse immediately not fit to be bred from? Or is just an unfortunate accident?

 

[tristar]

And what happens if the horse fulfills both your criteria, and after lets say ten years, one day whilst having a wild time in the field happens to fall over accidently and hurt itself? Is that horse immediately not fit to be bred from? Or is just an unfortunate accident?

you decide that daffy, when it happens, i don`t intend to let you lead me into a definative on that scenario, and i can`t speak from experience as i have not bred from unsound mare

my horses are different to yours, they need self preservation and great agility, i`m going down a different road

the 2 criterea mentioned above are only two of many things a horse would need before i bred from it.

 

[daffy44]

you decide that daffy, when it happens, i don`t intend to let you lead me into a definative on that scenario, and i can`t speak from experience as i have not bred from unsound mare

my horses are different to yours, they need self preservation and great agility, i`m going down a different road

the 2 criterea mentioned above are only two of many things a horse would need before i bred from it.[/QUOTE

I would agree with you that self preservation and agility are great positive qualities for a horse to have, but if a horse who is turned out daily has one accident in ten years, I would not think the horse is lacking in either of those qualities, or in anything else. I would think that the poor horse had a genuine accident, it would not change my opinion of the horse.

If however I had a horse that constantly had field accidents on a regular basis, then I would consider that a negative, and it would worry me. But one accident does not constitute a lack of anything in my book.

 

[tristar]

thanks daffy.