Dressage EG and Glocks ToTo Jr score over 86% in the KUR

[Goldenstar]

Just going back again to the comparison between the older videos; are the horses shorter in the neck now or does it just look like that because they aren't as round in the old footage?

I think there’s more horses down in the back in the old footage .

 

[Mule]

I think there’s more horses down in the back in the old footage .

I suppose that's also why the necks look longer. Their toplines are less round.

 

[tristar]

but their heads are more in front of the vertical in the old videos , more often, not all, than modern horses who without exception look winched in at the front end, making the neck look proportionally shorter than the overall frame.

its the frame of corlandus and the setting of his head and neck, which to some degree is conformational, which make him so spectacular in half pass in the video i have.

i often wonder how toto is living, hope he gets to be a horse outdoors sometimes

 

[Goldenstar]

he was a serial self harmer in a paddock with EG so they had to stop turning him out
Hopefully now he’s older and less fit he will be going out .

 

[tristar]

I saw a very interesting article shared today, an interview by Reiner Klimke, still have the same issues now!

https://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2...-klimke-the-way-forward-for-dressage-judging/

interesting where he says `classical riding starts with correct movement, we want to build up the strength of the horse and the movements`

oops not a thing to say on here

 

[shortstuff99]

interesting where he says `classical riding starts with correct movement, we want to build up the strength of the horse and the movements`

oops not a thing to say on here

Yes I thought it was very interesting article and echoed my thoughts!

 

[Goldenstar]

interesting where he says `classical riding starts with correct movement, we want to build up the strength of the horse and the movements`

oops not a thing to say on here

At first you work to condition the horse a little but mainly you are teaching it to accept the rider and training calmly ( backing stage and then riding away )
all training after this about developing strength and correct movement .
After that be it a hunter jumper hack or dressage horse the aim is the same .
No training tribe has the moral high ground there’s good and bad in every group .

 

[tristar]

i don`t think anyone is taking any moral high ground, he was an eventer as well

however i do personally like his emphasis on how it starts with `correct movement``

i`ve spent my life doing first level training, unhandled youngster to competition horse, so i have some idea of the process

 

[Cortez]

Yes of course it has to start with "correct" movement (or good movement, if you prefer): now, who can agree what that is? And unfortunately nowadays it sometimes/often doesn't end with it.

ETA Tolitlas' movement as a five year old was good but not spectacular, and completely unlike the paces he exhibited later in competition.

 

[Fellewell]

I saw a very interesting article shared today, an interview by Reiner Klimke, still have the same issues now!

https://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2...-klimke-the-way-forward-for-dressage-judging/

Thank you for posting this. Very interesting, especially the part about 'national glasses'

I think most horses try very hard to be compliant, that's why so many get broken. But it seems to me that Iberians take this desire to work to a whole new level. It's in their DNA and it would be a great shame if judges mistook this concentration for tension, especially at the higher levels.

I had to smile watching a certain lady perform a winning freestyle test but actually looking slightly disappointed with the winning score, perhaps because she still hadn't taken Charlotte's record. In the same comp Edward Gal left the arena but before looking for the judges score his eyes searched for Hans Peter to see what he thought. It was very sweet and showed that sometimes a nod from a friendly face is all you need.

 

[tristar]

Yes of course it has to start with "correct" movement (or good movement, if you prefer): now, who can agree what that is? And unfortunately nowadays it sometimes/often doesn't end with it.

ETA Tolitlas' movement as a five year old was good but not spectacular, and completely unlike the paces he exhibited later in competition.

well assuming correct movement is a combination of things how would you, well, not define categorically, but define in general terms that the horse is going in the right direction in the early stages, ie what would you like to see, as an overall impression?

 

[tristar]

Thank you for posting this. Very interesting, especially the part about 'national glasses'

I think most horses try very hard to be compliant, that's why so many get broken. But it seems to me that Iberians take this desire to work to a whole new level. It's in their DNA and it would be a great shame if judges mistook this concentration for tension, especially at the higher levels.

I had to smile watching a certain lady perform a winning freestyle test but actually looking slightly disappointed with the winning score, perhaps because she still hadn't taken Charlotte's record. In the same comp Edward Gal left the arena but before looking for the judges score his eyes searched for Hans Peter to see what he thought. It was very sweet and showed that sometimes a nod from a friendly face is all you need.

that is so true about horses getting broken and so sad

 

[oldie48]

I came across this which I thought was interesting.
https://horsesport.com/magazine/training/great-dressage-debate-flashy-correct/

 

[tristar]

the comments at the bottom are interesting, in particular Lynn varley is very thought provoking

 

[tristar]

just read the comments by Julie Bishop, at the bottom, its true some of those horses are not using their backs, gals horse in the top 2 pics shows that

 

[splashgirl45]

an interesting article saying exactly what i feel, if you look at valegro's extended trot the hinds match the fronts, so many of these flashy front leg movers shuffle behind and dont present the correct picture IMO...

 

[ycbm]

an interesting article saying exactly what i feel, if you look at valegro's extended trot the hinds match the fronts, so many of these flashy front leg movers shuffle behind and dont present the correct picture IMO...

I agree, but just imagine the peculiar creature that produces spider legs at the back as well as in front!
.

 

[shortstuff99]

Here is another good article. Here they also mention introducing the piaffe early as a gymnastic exercise for creating a better dressage horse, then an end game for grand prix.

https://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2...NbfViBm9Rcc7RArsD5fk3Q127rV5a2NIeJp7ruzOzqODU

 

[m1stify]

Are they staying sound? I may be wrong but my impression is that it's unusual to see an International GP horse still competing over the age of 14. Totilas was clearly lame behind in his last competition.
.

Judy Reynold’s JP is 16/17!

 

[Goldenstar]

I think it’s hilarious that any one reading these threads on here and seeing the parade of lameness and not lasting that we all suffer thinks it’s in any way a thing to beat high level dressage over the head with .

Lameness is a huge issue in all types of equine use .

 

[shortstuff99]

I think it’s hilarious that any one reading these threads on here and seeing the parade of lameness and not lasting that we all suffer thinks it’s in any way a thing to beat high level dressage over the head with .

Lameness is a huge issue in all types of equine use .

Do we all suffer that though? Are all of our lameness caused by competing and the subsequent work to get there or by field injuries? Should professional riders know that more then an amateur and take steps to prevent or mitigate it?

I'm never sure why top level riders aren't allowed to be criticised for their training and or riding practices. Even if someone is not riding at that level, they can still tell when something is bad. Not allowing the questioning can lead to some people thinking they can do what they want, surely that is not a good thing? I also think there is a difference between questioning a practice and personal attacks which no one here is doing.

 

[tristar]

Do we all suffer that though? Are all of our lameness caused by competing and the subsequent work to get there or by field injuries? Should professional riders know that more then an amateur and take steps to prevent or mitigate it?

I'm never sure why top level riders aren't allowed to be criticised for their training and or riding practices. Even if someone is not riding at that level, they can still tell when something is bad. Not allowing the questioning can lead to some people thinking they can do what they want, surely that is not a good thing? I also think there is a difference between questioning a practice and personal attacks which no one here is doing.[/QUOT


yes , what brings this all about, modern training practices to get to gp a 9 years is questionable, another 3 years of consolidation, development seems more humane

if i`m honest , if a horse can`t run around a field without falling over or injuring itself , i would not be breeding from it, it shows something lacking in the make up of the horse.

i think people are driven to comment on top horses ,riders, when they see something thats the best or winning , yet they don`t like watching it.

be interesting how things change in the next 20 years

 

[tristar]

I think it’s hilarious that any one reading these threads on here and seeing the parade of lameness and not lasting that we all suffer thinks it’s in any way a thing to beat high level dressage over the head with .

Lameness is a huge issue in all types of equine use .

if that is true, its an admission its time to do something to acknowledge breeding, current methods of breaking and training are not humane

 

[tristar]

Here is another good article. Here they also mention introducing the piaffe early as a gymnastic exercise for creating a better dressage horse, then an end game for grand prix.

https://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2...NbfViBm9Rcc7RArsD5fk3Q127rV5a2NIeJp7ruzOzqODU

the bit about the frame is excellent, ermm no kilos here

 

[Cortez]

if that is true, its an admission its time to do something to acknowledge breeding, current methods of breaking and training are not humane

....or to accept that horses are fairly fragile creatures that really are not designed to be ridden. I am fully on board with that, and with the fact that I have decided to ride them anyway and try to mitigate the dangers of that by doing my very best to train and condition the horse appropriately.

 

[Caol Ila]

If I had unlimited research grants and resources, I would want to see if it was possible to find out the prevalence lameness amongst populations of (a) upper level horses in their disciplines (b) lower level horses/happy hackers (c) feral horses like American mustangs.

Does anyone know anything about the attrition rate of SRS? I know the stallions you see performing can be in their 20s, but I can't imagine every young horse that comes through there ends up as a sound, successful haute ecole horse.

Laura Graves' Verdades retired from international GP competition at 18/19. Not a bad inning. He has a strange piaffe to be sure -- not textbook in the Classical sense -- but I always thought it looked like he found whatever he did very easy and effortless. He's also a Dutch Harness horse, so not a 'typical' dressage breed.

 

[shortstuff99]

....or to accept that horses are fairly fragile creatures that really are not designed to be ridden. I am fully on board with that, and with the fact that I have decided to ride them anyway and try to mitigate the dangers of that by doing my very best to train and condition the horse appropriately.

The key part for me here is the very best to train and condition the horse. I don't think its necessarily a bad thing to point out or discuss training or riding which might be detrimental to that aim. Or at least I enjoy the discussion anyway!

 

[shortstuff99]

If I had unlimited research grants and resources, I would want to see if it was possible to find out the prevalence lameness amongst populations of (a) upper level horses in their disciplines (b) lower level horses/happy hackers (c) feral horses like American mustangs.

Does anyone know anything about the attrition rate of SRS? I know the stallions you see performing can be in their 20s, but I can't imagine every young horse that comes through there ends up as a sound, successful haute ecole horse.

Laura Graves' Verdades retired from international GP competition at 18/19. Not a bad inning. He has a strange piaffe to be sure -- not textbook in the Classical sense -- but I always thought it looked like he found whatever he did very easy and effortless. He's also a Dutch Harness horse, so not a 'typical' dressage breed.

That would be interesting for sure!

 

[milliepops]

The key part for me here is the very best to train and condition the horse. I don't think its necessarily a bad thing to point out or discuss training or riding which might be detrimental to that aim. Or at least I enjoy the discussion anyway!

no absolutely. but I think what GS was getting at, and what has been discussed on here before, is that ALL disciplines incl horses that hardly do any work at all, have issues with lameness, welfare concerns and injury. but it's fashionable on here and elsewhere to simply point to horses ridden by pros and say they are the ones who do all the damage.

 

[shortstuff99]

no absolutely. but I think what GS was getting at, and what has been discussed on here before, is that ALL disciplines incl horses that hardly do any work at all, have issues with lameness, welfare concerns and injury. but it's fashionable on here and elsewhere to simply point to horses ridden by pros and say they are the ones who do all the damage.

I would like to think that we would point out issues there too, but (for me) it is going to be much harder to improve general horse welfare and public image if they point to a top rider and say 'look they do it that way too'.