Ex-raccehorse woes, seriously what am I going to do?

Ok, while I think it's great you've started some form of groundwork, why are you so resistant to get a professional to instil some vital on-the-ground buttons? Horses will automatically respect their 'leader', but they need to show confidence, competency and have thoroughly asserted their leadership through fairness and skill. I've really 'seen the light' when it comes to ground work, after trying to work with a pushy, bargy, all-flattening warmblood. Within 3 sessions, a professional had this horse responding basically to body language, and I now realise these are cues a difficult to handle horse must understand. When lunging, simply stopping my feet will cause this horse to stop and face-up, even if he's spooked and tanked off. He can yield quarters and shoulders, perform 180° turns. All this was established BEFORE we started pushing the 'trust' boundaries. You need to have the tools in place to bring the horse's attention back to you if something goes wrong.
 
We have a turnout pen at work which I use a lot with the fresh horses. Some days, yes they do gallop around like twerps and come in all hot and sweaty, but they are certainly better behaved the next day!
Also groundwork won't do you or your horse any harm, it sounds like you are not the 'boss' and she doesn't follow and trust you completely so you can work on this from the ground.
I would recommend you are very strict with yourself with routine, making sure you exercise, turnout or whatever at the same time everyday. Maybe consider either sending her away for a week or two or getting your trainer to come everyday to 'get her going' again under saddle and then you can start where they left off.

And finally the tension and explosions... its a chicken and egg thing... why is she tense? A tense, tight horse will exhibit signs of pain as their muscles etc are engaged, for instance with a KS if the horse is hollow, short in neck and tense in the back a 'mild ks' will be active, meanwhile a relaxed horse working long and low working 'up' in the back will actually 'open' the spine and will actually disengage a ks. Just next time she is 'off on one' take a step back and really think why.
 
snopuma said:
You still didn't answer my question, What facilities do you think I need?
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I'll answer that .
You need to provide a suitable rider a safe place for the rider to work her you need to provide work for a least six days a week and horses who are challenging get worked seven days a week here
You need to provide turnout and a horse companion for when turned out .
You need to provide enough exercise to keep the horse feeling calm and happy and that in my book means long slow hacking and you need a suitable companion ( horse and rider ) to do that safely .
If she where mine I would be leading her from another horse in a group of horses.
I would provide routine IME this type of horse does best when they have a set routine .
All of this is just simple horse stuff it's not about fancy facillities ( but you do need somewhere enclosed to train a difficult horse )
A horse only learns to be ridden by being ridden the issues will never magically disappear .
 
snopuma said:
Erm, its not an on going back problem, she had a sore muscle on her rump she was a flat racer, I got the back lady out just after I bought her and 2 sessions and some exercises and the problem went, she has the back lady every 6 months, this sore muscle has never reoccurred and she just has a 'once over' session to check we don't have any other issues.
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Ah, ok. I must have misunderstood what you had written on a previous thread.

snopuma said:
had her saddle checked and physio etc.. over the years and she is always tight in the rump one side which alternates and is easily fixed with a visit from saddler and physio,
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Bonkers2 said:
I think that a horse will trust a handler who is confident, experienced and consistent. You have failed the mare in all these factors. You do not have the facilities or the experience to deal with her, accept it and find another home for her.
You seem to think that you can talk to her, negotiate terms, and get her to accept your ideas, but that is not how it works.
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This entirely - my heart goes out to this poor mare, you claim to love her but to love her would mean you would want the best for her which does not appear to be the case.

If you have not bonded in 4 years you are not going to do so now IMHO - find this mare a home with a confident, calm rider who will give the mare clear parameters which delineate the behaviour expected of her and will work with her until she understands what she needs to do.

There are probably health issues that should be investigated, through a proper lameness work up/vet examination - hopefully her new owner will be responsible enough to do that for her.

You remind me so much of the lady who I bought my TB from - she claimed to love him to bits, was allegedly devastated to have to sell him, but apparently had failed to notice that he had chronic back and pelvis issues which took me a couple of years to sort out.....
 
Fun Times said:
Would it matter what the response was? I suggested a walker about 400 posts back but you didn't respond to that idea.
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Your suggestion for a horse that everybody is utterly convinced has KS or SI is a walker? Really? The only walker that is proved suitable not to cause damage to the horse is the oval shaped type, very rare to find one of these on a livery yard and to be fair not every yard has a walker, so yes I dismissed it.
 
Lyle said:
Ok, while I think it's great you've started some form of groundwork, why are you so resistant to get a professional to instil some vital on-the-ground buttons? Horses will automatically respect their 'leader', but they need to show confidence, competency and have thoroughly asserted their leadership through fairness and skill. I've really 'seen the light' when it comes to ground work, after trying to work with a pushy, bargy, all-flattening warmblood. Within 3 sessions, a professional had this horse responding basically to body language, and I now realise these are cues a difficult to handle horse must understand. When lunging, simply stopping my feet will cause this horse to stop and face-up, even if he's spooked and tanked off. He can yield quarters and shoulders, perform 180° turns. All this was established BEFORE we started pushing the 'trust' boundaries. You need to have the tools in place to bring the horse's attention back to you if something goes wrong.
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I do understand that groundwork is important but I don't hold with Parelli, I do however like Monty Roberts way of thinking but I don't have access to a round pen, what I do have access to is a 60x20 sand and rubber surfaced, fenced all round beautiful ménage. which on occasion I have in the past fenced of with the jumps a 20x 20 area to work her in. I do have a lovely horse to turn out and the stable yard is large and she wanders along beautifully with you round the yard to be groomed, bathed etc.. she stops when you stop without even taking up the lead rope tension or getting ahead of me, but the one place she is awful is coming in from being out, we have to cross one field then onto a muddy track for about 700yds then onto a gravel drive for another 300yds, then we are back into the yard, she uses to be awful all the way all the time, now in the summer she is pretty good all the way, but when winter comes she is now awful from the moment you open the gate until we reach the gravel, at least that last part she is okay on, but on the mud she is dangerous, she has slid over completely on her side before and its frightening to see, she just wants IN and she wants it now, now don't get me wrong I have one of the longest walks on the farm to turnout and back again and I do covert the near to the yard fields but the mess she makes when she kicks off you wouldn't want that near to the farmhouse and the chance of her setting all the youngsters off is not worth it, I have kept my horses there for well over a decade it is one of the loveliest places around and the YO is brilliant. We do have plans to move to in the next few years to a house with land and stables and the first thing I will do for my mare is build and allweather paddock with a field shelter so she can have a better lifestyle than she does now in the winter.
 
What Lyle is talking about isn't parelli, it's just decent ground manners!

Get a strict routine, find a way to work her far far more than she is being now under professional supervision. Preferably also get her out. This isn't going to just go away.
 
Thoroughbreds are always sharper in the winter, that is a fact. This horse has been over analysed and just needs correct handling from a decent jockey and a suitable environment.
 
snopuma said:
its abuse when I have said she has been seen by vets, physio and osteo and still they keep on, I am not dismissing the idea of a work up at the vets, but it is not how she displays, if she is tense or spooky she broncs, if she is calm and the sun is shining etc... she does not, I would assume that if she had a medical problem that she would present the same on every/most occasions regardless of her mood?
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My warm blood mare was exactly the same, we have a NH trainer out for ground work which helped.but when ridden if she was relaxed it was all good but went she tensed up she just exploded. Same with when.working her long and low, all fine but when asked to come.up into a contact.explosion you coming off at a rate of knots. But she was and still is sound as a pound and the way she moves you would never even guess she has anything wrong with her. She has this heart breaking floaty trot and can go into extension with just a.breath and it takes my breath away that I can't ride her but I am.so so grateful that I got a.work up done before I sent her to a pro. If I hadn't she would have seriously injured someone. The KS xray cost me £140 of my insurance excess or it would have only been £300 if I had had to pay.

I'm not going to get at you about not turning out as there is a horse (ex racer too) at my yard who hates winter and will not go out for longer than an hour. Lady has been here three.years and tried alsorts but she just won't do it. So she just gets lunged/loose schooled or ridden everyday.
Once may comes round she is happy to be out as.much as she can
 
justabob said:
Thoroughbreds are always sharper in the winter, that is a fact. This horse has been over analysed and just needs correct handling from a decent jockey and a suitable environment.
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Actually no its not a fact. I know of two TBs both ex racers who are complete donkeys all year round and one of them.is mine
 
the turnout thing would be such a major issue with my lad. He would be a loon with limited turnout. Even on yards that did turnout, if they were an hour late taking him in he would melt, as he needed a routine. I ended up moving yards 4 times till i got a yard that suited him. Eventually ended up on 24/7 turnout and he's never been happier - and this was a horse who would run through fences, pace edges and sweat foam on some yards. Now he is completely chilled and much happier, and those issues disappeared.
 
Bonkers2 said:
You think it is related to feed, FF is just a mix of sugar beet and stuff, its pretty minimal. I would imagine it has had a few different feeds over the 4 years in the hands of OP.
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The reason I advised looking at the feed, is that I had a mare whose behaviour was so extreme that she was on the point of PTS, when sister just happened to read an article about a horse which had been cured of a lameness issue, and a cough by taking it off hard feed. My horse had a cough at the time, so in order to make her more comfortable, while we decided what to do with her, we took her off all hard feed.
The result was miraculous, within the space of a week, her behaviour was back to that of a 'normal' horse, although during that week she had exhibited the behaviours of a drug addict going 'cold turkey'.
Over the years and with different horses, I have learned that 'stuff', no matter how harmless it seems can affect individual horses very badly. I have had horse react to; molasses, all cereals, seaweed, glucosamine, Brewer's Yeast, NAF haylage balancer and PinkPowder, alfalfa and carrots.
If I were OP, I would stop feeding this horse everything except ad-lib hay, to see if that makes a difference.
 
I've started posting so many times on this thread.. Then decided it wasn't worth it, then started again...
I'm a vet.
YOU NEED A VET. Not a back lady or a chiro or a saddle fitter.. a VET. One who can do a proper work up, not just watch her trotted out in hand. She's an ex flat racer with unpredictable behavioural issues. More than 50% of them come off the track with physical problems, so the odds are already stacked against you.
She's gone from whispering ("scuttling" in response to a the pain, NOT to a spook) to screaming at you "full on broncing). A "recurrent muscle issue" is an indication that something deeper is out of whack (SI, pelvis), otherwise it would not be recurrent!
I would hazard a guess the reason she is worse to bring in than to turn out is NOT because she is desperate to get back in but because she is in a panic in anticipation of being ridden when she gets there!
She is good to handle in the yard and when doing groundwork because she does not then have to anticipate being ridden, which hurts.
The professionals you HAVE used (rider, "back lady" need to be shot for not suggesting a veterinary work up.
There, now I've posted. I'll wait to be called a simpleton.
 
By UK law no chiro or physio should work on a horse without a vet having given his assent. I would be surprised if any vet would advise anything other than a work up given the symptoms, but as we know from her postings, OP is not likely to take any such advice on board.
We don't know what any of the professionals have advised, it is not likely the instructor is working with OP on a regular basis, as even the best of them would balk at something which broncs, the risk of injury is too great.
I don't know what more we can do to get this horse out of its predicament.
 
Also worth nothing that physio, chiro etc can't always pick up on things like KS until the horse is in a lot of pain with it.
 
OwnedbyJoe said:
I've started posting so many times on this thread.. Then decided it wasn't worth it, then started again...
I'm a vet.
YOU NEED A VET. Not a back lady or a chiro or a saddle fitter.. a VET. One who can do a proper work up, not just watch her trotted out in hand. She's an ex flat racer with unpredictable behavioural issues. More than 50% of them come off the track with physical problems, so the odds are already stacked against you.
She's gone from whispering ("scuttling" in response to a the pain, NOT to a spook) to screaming at you "full on broncing). A "recurrent muscle issue" is an indication that something deeper is out of whack (SI, pelvis), otherwise it would not be recurrent!
I would hazard a guess the reason she is worse to bring in than to turn out is NOT because she is desperate to get back in but because she is in a panic in anticipation of being ridden when she gets there!
She is good to handle in the yard and when doing groundwork because she does not then have to anticipate being ridden, which hurts.
The professionals you HAVE used (rider, "back lady" need to be shot for not suggesting a veterinary work up.
There, now I've posted. I'll wait to be called a simpleton.
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Amen.

Lets hope the horse gets the help it needs.
 
wench said:
Also worth nothing that physio, chiro etc can't always pick up on things like KS until the horse is in a lot of pain with it.
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We know that.
OP has been advised to get a vet so many times, but apparently she does not think there is a veterinary problem, so she thinks there is no need for a workup. The fact that no one agrees with her on this, or on anything else is a problem without an obvious solution.
 
wench said:
Also worth nothing that physio, chiro etc can't always pick up on things like KS until the horse is in a lot of pain with it.
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We know that.
OP has been advised to get a vet so many times, but apparently she does not think there is a veterinary problem, so she thinks there is no need for a workup. The fact that no one agrees with her on this, or on anything else is a problem without an obvious solution.
 
snopuma said:
Your suggestion for a horse that everybody is utterly convinced has KS or SI is a walker? Really? The only walker that is proved suitable not to cause damage to the horse is the oval shaped type, very rare to find one of these on a livery yard and to be fair not every yard has a walker, so yes I dismissed it.
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So you dismissed my idea due to concerns regarding KS or SI. Good. Best news for your mare. I assume you are on your way to the vets to get it looked into then.
 
OwnedbyJoe said:
I've started posting so many times on this thread.. Then decided it wasn't worth it, then started again...
I'm a vet.
YOU NEED A VET. Not a back lady or a chiro or a saddle fitter.. a VET. One who can do a proper work up, not just watch her trotted out in hand. She's an ex flat racer with unpredictable behavioural issues. More than 50% of them come off the track with physical problems, so the odds are already stacked against you.
She's gone from whispering ("scuttling" in response to a the pain, NOT to a spook) to screaming at you "full on broncing). A "recurrent muscle issue" is an indication that something deeper is out of whack (SI, pelvis), otherwise it would not be recurrent!
I would hazard a guess the reason she is worse to bring in than to turn out is NOT because she is desperate to get back in but because she is in a panic in anticipation of being ridden when she gets there!
She is good to handle in the yard and when doing groundwork because she does not then have to anticipate being ridden, which hurts.
The professionals you HAVE used (rider, "back lady" need to be shot for not suggesting a veterinary work up.
There, now I've posted. I'll wait to be called a simpleton.
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Absolutely this.
 
OwnedbyJoe said:
I've started posting so many times on this thread.. Then decided it wasn't worth it, then started again...
I'm a vet.
YOU NEED A VET. Not a back lady or a chiro or a saddle fitter.. a VET. One who can do a proper work up, not just watch her trotted out in hand. She's an ex flat racer with unpredictable behavioural issues. More than 50% of them come off the track with physical problems, so the odds are already stacked against you.
She's gone from whispering ("scuttling" in response to a the pain, NOT to a spook) to screaming at you "full on broncing). A "recurrent muscle issue" is an indication that something deeper is out of whack (SI, pelvis), otherwise it would not be recurrent!
I would hazard a guess the reason she is worse to bring in than to turn out is NOT because she is desperate to get back in but because she is in a panic in anticipation of being ridden when she gets there!
She is good to handle in the yard and when doing groundwork because she does not then have to anticipate being ridden, which hurts.
The professionals you HAVE used (rider, "back lady" need to be shot for not suggesting a veterinary work up.
There, now I've posted. I'll wait to be called a simpleton.
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I am amazed from the other side of the world you know my routine with her, when in work she is mostly ridden before she gets turned out, so how would she be frightened and anxious about coming in to be ridden. Horses don't think that far ahead they live in the now, they have no future plans as a vet I would have expected you to know that. Why then after the first canter and buck does she work nicely? If she's in so much pain? She hasn't had any muscle spasm for well over 18 months as usual people on a forum grab a sentence and run with it. The problem is getting on a very well mare not an ill one.
 
I posted last year about a horse owned by someone I know displaying similar behaviour. A dope to handle but dangerous ridden, took 15 mins to get on, each time approaching as though first backing then gentle walking, even after all that it usually bronced when asked for any more. They bought it as an ISH, I personally think it was an OTTB with a dodgy passport. Eventually I got sick of being told the physio had seen it, the saddler was coming (again) X had told them to lunge it and I called WHW. The horse then saw a vet and was diagnosed with an old neck injury, surprisingly not its back but was unsafe to ride which lends weight to my TB theory. This one has now gone to one of the "alternative" careers open to large horses. (Not PTS but don't want to be too obvious). My acquaintance like you loved the horse but had her head very firmly wedged in the sand.
 
Snopuma. I used to assist with retraining ex racers and if one went from 'boring' (as described by the former owner) to how you describe her now, we would want to find out why. I know that you have considered doping, but the first thing that we would rule out is pain as a cause. I know that several vets have seen her - and as I stated earlier I feel that they have let you and the horse down by not taking her in to investigate her properly. I don't understand why you are so against x-rays and a proper work up. I've known so many horses over the years that weren't lame, but did have issues on proper investigation.
 
Wasting my breath but as I care about horses......

Have you had an X ray on her spine? yes or no?

If not HOW do you know there is nothing physically wrong with her??

Mine with KS was competing regularly, sometimes broncing sometimes not........whether she is very well or not, if she is broncing ANYTIME at all, personally I would want to know I had covered everything and if not KS then at least you know you are dealing with some other issue or simple hi jinx.

Either way you clearly dont have enough experience with ex racers/tb's to ever make this work for you.
 
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