Ex-raccehorse woes, seriously what am I going to do?

Bonkers2 said:
Its all in the first post


QUOTE "So my predicament is that despite the fact that I love this little madam and she has her good points, she's great in the stable, loves a groom etc... she is the worst horse to lead in from the field, I have tried every gadget and she has no respect, she launches through the air spins round, canters next to you virtually on the spot rears up, she used to put the fear of God into me, she doesn't even respect a chifney I am surprised I have broken her jaw with her carry-on, she has no respect for me at all, now I am not a wus and I give as good as she's gets, I am ashamed to say that I have punched her ignorant face when she has really pushed it with me, not that there was much reaction, in fact little at all, I have tried being overly nice and praising her every good move. Nothing works, she just looks at me like 'Sucker' do my bidding. I have desensitised her with the lunge whip as she was terrified of it, I have never hit her, I just wiggle it on the floor, now she is desensitised she now has decided that she will stop whenever she likes and just look around, and now I am between the rock and the hard place" UNQUOTE

It seems OP wants the horse to behave in exchange for a clean bed, but the horse has not accepted OP's contract, as she explains somewhere else.

We don't know what is the OP's dilemma, what is the Rock, what is the Hard Place.......
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Ah I see it now. I did read the first post but totally missed the hitting in the face bit. Nice. What an awful horse, not behaving itself because it has a clean bed, How ungrateful. Some of these horses these days just have no respect!
 
OP... Unfortunately you can't ask for help on a forum and then just get annoyed when the answer isn't what you want to hear.

Just send her to someone for 4-6 weeks and see how they get on. It might seem expensive but to be honest you have paid livery for nearly 4 years for a horse which has not given you anything in return (for whatever reason) so another wee bit to try and get some clarity seems worthwhile
Losing your confidence is truly terrible - if you do send her somewhere and her behaviour changes then maybe you could go and ride her there a few times and see if you think there is a chance of coming back from this situation- and if not then she is in the best shape to sell anyway.

I do sympathise with your turnout situation - and some horses couldn't give a c**p about turnout, especially in winter- but she may just be one of the ones who needs it. If that means you need to move her, then thats what you have to do if you want to keep her. Its as simple as that. If she went somewhere where other horses are out 24/7 she may well just settle- the hooleying about could just be learned behaviour. We have had some who have been turfed out for medical reasons who we thought would never settle - but they do. Always.

Anyway I am not sure why I am bothering typing this because you may well just ignore it if it is not what you want to hear but its worth a try...
 
Wow the simpletons are back then, if you can't understand what I have said then at the least you could ask a question before you hurl accusations. My horse is a happy horse, she is happiest when she's in her stable, I would love to turn her out every day ALL day, but even WITH her permanent company of my other horse and hay in the field she would rather try and kill herself galloping round and round for the small time she has had out, of course I am not going to leave her in just because he's on box rest, but at the moment the way their field is there is no point to turn her out with another horse either, I don't think anyone would volunteer their horse as company at the yard, my lame horse is lame because of her, perhaps you are saying that other peoples ponys or shetlands don't matter??? I have previously lost a wonderful horse due to a freak field accident, I am not about to set my mare up for a similar situation. Not for her and certainly not for a bunch of freaks on a forum. There have however been some lovely people who have offered great advice, so for the meantime I will as I have this morning, taken her in the school but not as usual to lunge her or let her run about, I have set out some tarps and poles and we have had a great time his morning playing with those and for the first time in a long time we had a connection she was intrigued and bold and pleased with herself and we had a great time, so thank you to the person that recommended that. I will continue to as I have all this time, lunge her, graze her in hand, and to be fair she has only had no turnout for 5 weeks, the field in another week or so will be rolled and harrowed and then when its hopefully a bit warmer I will get her out and if I can't get company for her then she will have to just be next to other horses, I really love this mare, I want her to have all the fun but it is hard when they are so agoraphobic, horses have no sense of cause or consequence she would run until she broke down she would not think to stop, so all of you that insist I am so awful, I assume that you chuck yours out and never give it a second thought? If so, I won't be taking your advice.

I will look around for a trainer with more experience of OTTB's and hopefully more of an insight into her behaviour will help, I already have the back lady booked in for 2 weeks time, as mine are always done twice a year as a routine, so at least from a bleak winter and all the abuse on here things look rosier.

What I was looking for on here was perhaps anyone who had a similar situation with a horse, but most of you either think I'm awful or mad, the few that managed to comment giving me some hope I am very grateful to you.

And to those that can't believe anyone could punch a horse, I was leading them both in from the field 3 years ago, it was very muddy and slippy he was on my left and she on my right she flipped out and attempted to go through me and him not wise he's much bigger and I bopped her on her cheek, if you look at your own hand when your holding a lead rope, its a fist, and if you are holding two horses its not like you have a spare hand, so I am not given to ninja style leg leaping all I had was my hand. I felt awful, but I had to do it to we were on a tight track with electric fence either side and they both react big time when they touch the fence, so in the same situation I would do it again, it was better than what was about to happen.
 
I don't understand how the people on here, who have much experiance and have gone out of their way to give you some help and advice, which you asked for,are 'freaks' and how they are giving you abuse?

I can't understand for the life of me why when people who's horses have behaved similar to how you have described yours have told you that was an early indication of a problem and that a lameness and full work up would be a good road to go down have been shot down in flames by you? You sound like you don't give a hoot about this horse and it's general well being, but you care more about your pride and that's why you won't admit defeat with a horse who is either in pain (most likely) or is not a quiet hacking horse therefore too much for you. I genuinely think the horse is unlikely to be the problem here, but your attitude towards her is the problem. Just because they aren't giving you what you want to hear doesn't make anybody 'unhelpful' or a 'freak' and nor is it 'abuse' it is just truth based on other peoples unfortunate experiances. I hope this horse ends up settled be it with you or someone else.
 
Whoa there - how can you class us 'simpletons' and 'freaks' when all we have done is try to offer advice on the information given?

I have every sympathy with your situation, and have owned a couple of horses that I could just not click with, and both displayed dangerous behaviour. I sold both on quickly to more experienced homes - not only for my sake, but for theirs too.

However YOU posted on the forum so have to accept people will offer an opinion, whether you agree with their opinion or not, and there is no reason to be abusive.

Also I think you need to understand that the fact that you 'love' your horse is neither reflected in what you have posted, and nor will this 'love' stop the horse hurting you again. Also how you can say this horse is 'happy is beyond my comprehension…..
 
its abuse when I have said she has been seen by vets, physio and osteo and still they keep on, I am not dismissing the idea of a work up at the vets, but it is not how she displays, if she is tense or spooky she broncs, if she is calm and the sun is shining etc... she does not, I would assume that if she had a medical problem that she would present the same on every/most occasions regardless of her mood? I don't know maybe I have been thinking about this situation for nearly 4 years unlike the people on here who have decided whats wrong with her without seeing her or knowing her, and have decided this in a forum in the last 24hours, seriously who would know more about my mare? Its abuse when I have said I won't sell her, won't PTS and they say I should, they don't seriously think I would take that advice from a bunch of strangers on a forum? would they like it if I said it about their horses? I have been told by my YO that when she dies she wants to come back as one of my horses, because I care so much and they want for nothing, so go figure.
 
L&M said:
Whoa there - how can you class us 'simpletons' and 'freaks' when all we have done is try to offer advice on the information given?

I have every sympathy with your situation, and have owned a couple of horses that I could just not click with, and both displayed dangerous behaviour. I sold both on quickly to more experienced homes - not only for my sake, but for theirs too.

However YOU posted on the forum so have to accept people will offer an opinion, whether you agree with their opinion or not, and there is no reason to be abusive.

Also I think you need to understand that the fact that you 'love' your horse is neither reflected in what you have posted, and nor will this 'love' stop the horse hurting you again. Also how you can say this horse is 'happy is beyond my comprehension…..
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I didn't say all were simpletons, yep at no point did I say that. I have responded to abuse and that is quite different.
 
sportsmansB said:
OP... Unfortunately you can't ask for help on a forum and then just get annoyed when the answer isn't what you want to hear.

Just send her to someone for 4-6 weeks and see how they get on. It might seem expensive but to be honest you have paid livery for nearly 4 years for a horse which has not given you anything in return (for whatever reason) so another wee bit to try and get some clarity seems worthwhile
Losing your confidence is truly terrible - if you do send her somewhere and her behaviour changes then maybe you could go and ride her there a few times and see if you think there is a chance of coming back from this situation- and if not then she is in the best shape to sell anyway.

I do sympathise with your turnout situation - and some horses couldn't give a c**p about turnout, especially in winter- but she may just be one of the ones who needs it. If that means you need to move her, then thats what you have to do if you want to keep her. Its as simple as that. If she went somewhere where other horses are out 24/7 she may well just settle- the hooleying about could just be learned behaviour. We have had some who have been turfed out for medical reasons who we thought would never settle - but they do. Always.

Anyway I am not sure why I am bothering typing this because you may well just ignore it if it is not what you want to hear but its worth a try...
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How would moving her help? I am genuinely intrigued as to what kind of set up you think would work for turnout for her?
 
So what do you want to do with her? From what I can make out you dont want to move yards, you dont want to sell her, you dont want to take her into the vets for a work up, you dont want to have her PTS?

What do you want to do with her?
 
Sounds like you are having a bad time! If she were mine I would do the following and see if it helps-
- cut out hard feed completely and just give ad lib hay- trial this and see if she responds. If you really feel she needs something give her chaff with added oil so she has calories but nothing that fries her brain
- lunge/loose school/ride her every day- give her some consistency and get her in a routine of being active and giving her brain something to engage in. TB's are mostly very intelligent and need constant questions to keep their attention.
- if she's been off work since October do ground work for as long as you need to before you get back on- when you do get back on lunge her first and sit on and just stay in walk. You need to stay relaxed and if you don't feel in control you will tense so even if you're only on for 5 mins and build up from there as long as they are a good productive 5 mins with both of you feeling happy then this should help.
- be firm with her- my old ex racehorse was the kind that if you gave an inch he would take a mile- the first month I had him I had to be extremely firm to set the boundaries

I would say a majority of the issues are due to her feeling well and full of energy and you worrying about this- bit of a vicious circle but I honestly think the starting point is to cut the feed and work her everyday and go from there.

I hope this is helpful!
 
snopuma said:
its abuse when I have said she has been seen by vets, physio and osteo and still they keep on, I am not dismissing the idea of a work up at the vets, but it is not how she displays, if she is tense or spooky she broncs, if she is calm and the sun is shining etc... she does not, I would assume that if she had a medical problem that she would present the same on every/most occasions regardless of her mood? I don't know maybe I have been thinking about this situation for nearly 4 years unlike the people on here who have decided whats wrong with her without seeing her or knowing her, and have decided this in a forum in the last 24hours, seriously who would know more about my mare? Its abuse when I have said I won't sell her, won't PTS and they say I should, they don't seriously think I would take that advice from a bunch of strangers on a forum? would they like it if I said it about their horses? I have been told by my YO that when she dies she wants to come back as one of my horses, because I care so much and they want for nothing, so go figure.
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Just an idea if she's worse when it's windy or cold could be joints or something along those lines.

My boy whose always been a bit Bucky and quirky started broncing big time. The first thing I did was ring the vet, the last thing I wanna do is get after the poor ****** if he's in pain. Turns out he has arthritis in both hocks and very mild KS and the cold weather brought on the symptoms.

Honestly I would recommend getting x rays. It's not fair on her to put it down to behaviour if you haven't explored all options. A couple of steroid injections later my boy is back to his happy slightly quirky self. I no longer feel like I'm going to eat dirt and my boy is happy.
 
I've not read all the pages, and gather everyone's got a bit excited!

Based on the first post - I'd say that leaping about / rearing whilst being lead is downright rude. Some horses would never dream of behaving like this, but some will give it a go because they object to whatever, and if they get away with it a couple of times then it becomes a response to anything they dont want to do. My chap can be a git when he wants to - so i got him a rope pressure halter and lead him in that and a lunge line if I know he is likely to protest over something (usually coming in and leaving his field mates before its bedtime - he is pretty predictable!).

As for the ridden....I wouldn't want to suggest a costly veterinary work up having not seen the horse. I'd suggest get the opinion of someone who knows the mare who you trust. Trainer says she's ok and you are being a wimp? If you dont buy that school of thought, why not get a second opinion from a different trainer. If you have money to spend - why not send to a behaviour specialist like Jason Webb. You will get a straight answer and training in how to deal with her if its behavioural.

I see above people are mentioning turn out, as said not read prev pages but if she's not turned out then i can see how that could be a massive issue. There is a lovely sports horse at our yard who is always FULL of beans. His owner, whilst not afraid of him, has arthritis in her wrists and has lost him a few times when he's decided to stand up. He now knows this and can be an absolute pig to handle if he's not had enough turnout...
 
Snopuma I tried to be nice and reasonable and objective and helpful, as did many others. To have you state we are simpletons and freaks is a bit rich. We, after all, are not the ones stuck with a horse in its stable that we can't do anything with. Keep going with the tarps and walking over poles, am sure it will all come good in no time at all with that regime.
 
Rosesandhorses said:
Sounds like you are having a bad time! If she were mine I would do the following and see if it helps-
- cut out hard feed completely and just give ad lib hay- trial this and see if she responds. If you really feel she needs something give her chaff with added oil so she has calories but nothing that fries her brain
- lunge/loose school/ride her every day- give her some consistency and get her in a routine of being active and giving her brain something to engage in. TB's are mostly very intelligent and need constant questions to keep their attention.
- if she's been off work since October do ground work for as long as you need to before you get back on- when you do get back on lunge her first and sit on and just stay in walk. You need to stay relaxed and if you don't feel in control you will tense so even if you're only on for 5 mins and build up from there as long as they are a good productive 5 mins with both of you feeling happy then this should help.
- be firm with her- my old ex racehorse was the kind that if you gave an inch he would take a mile- the first month I had him I had to be extremely firm to set the boundaries

I would say a majority of the issues are due to her feeling well and full of energy and you worrying about this- bit of a vicious circle but I honestly think the starting point is to cut the feed and work her everyday and go from there.

I hope this is helpful!
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Thank you! this is very helpful xxx
 
Fun Times said:
Snopuma I tried to be nice and reasonable and objective and helpful, as did many others. To have you state we are simpletons and freaks is a bit rich. We, after all, are not the ones stuck with a horse in its stable that we can't do anything with. Keep going with the tarps and walking over poles, am sure it will all come good in no time at all with that regime.
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Lovely thank you for that I wonder why I thought simpletons, just a quick question, How do you teach a horse to trust you in an unusual situation? How do you teach a horse to be braver and less spooky? The groundwork today was brilliant but thanks for bursting that bubble. Fun Times I think not.
 
stilltrying said:
I've not read all the pages, and gather everyone's got a bit excited!

Based on the first post - I'd say that leaping about / rearing whilst being lead is downright rude. Some horses would never dream of behaving like this, but some will give it a go because they object to whatever, and if they get away with it a couple of times then it becomes a response to anything they dont want to do. My chap can be a git when he wants to - so i got him a rope pressure halter and lead him in that and a lunge line if I know he is likely to protest over something (usually coming in and leaving his field mates before its bedtime - he is pretty predictable!).

As for the ridden....I wouldn't want to suggest a costly veterinary work up having not seen the horse. I'd suggest get the opinion of someone who knows the mare who you trust. Trainer says she's ok and you are being a wimp? If you dont buy that school of thought, why not get a second opinion from a different trainer. If you have money to spend - why not send to a behaviour specialist like Jason Webb. You will get a straight answer and training in how to deal with her if its behavioural.

I see above people are mentioning turn out, as said not read prev pages but if she's not turned out then i can see how that could be a massive issue. There is a lovely sports horse at our yard who is always FULL of beans. His owner, whilst not afraid of him, has arthritis in her wrists and has lost him a few times when he's decided to stand up. He now knows this and can be an absolute pig to handle if he's not had enough turnout...
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Thank you his makes a lot of sense x
 
amymay said:
I mention it again, just in case you missed it first time around.
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Erm, its not an on going back problem, she had a sore muscle on her rump she was a flat racer, I got the back lady out just after I bought her and 2 sessions and some exercises and the problem went, she has the back lady every 6 months, this sore muscle has never reoccurred and she just has a 'once over' session to check we don't have any other issues.
 
snopuma said:
Lovely thank you for that I wonder why I thought simpletons, just a quick question, How do you teach a horse to trust you in an unusual situation? How do you teach a horse to be braver and less spooky? The groundwork today was brilliant but thanks for bursting that bubble. Fun Times I think not.
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You will often find a spooky horse is in pain.

I suggest you look at posts in the tack room from minchen and her horse, and there is one knocking around about a bridle lame horse.
 
snopuma said:
Lovely thank you for that I wonder why I thought simpletons, just a quick question, How do you teach a horse to trust you in an unusual situation? How do you teach a horse to be braver and less spooky? The groundwork today was brilliant but thanks for bursting that bubble. Fun Times I think not.
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But your original issue wasn't about making her braver or less spooky. It was about the fact you can't safely lead or ride her. Am genuinely sure the groundwork will help with spooky/brave issues but I had thought your original qu was about her broncing like stink with you in canter? Am not convinced a tarp will fix that.
 
Ok thread has gotten too long for me to be bothered to trawl through it.

First of all if this was myself I would be asking myself what I wanted from this horse.

I would be also asking myself if this is all worth it as what you have described about this mare so basically she is good to play with in the stable and that's it. Now some of this may be lack of turnout but it could also just be the mare.

Just from reading some of your posts and the time you have had this horse and been on this forum and probably read similar threads it has never occurred to you to get the vet out for a full workup? You are refusing to do so based on her movement etc which won't show you everything. My old horse is sound and over tracking in walk trot and canter using the full school on a long rein so if I always rode him like this anyone looking at him would think he was perfectly sound with no issues. Collect him up and he's again sound in W/T/C on full school but ask for smaller circles and he's not right. He has confirmed arthritis ( he's is 24) but to anyone casually looking he's sound. Just goes to show

Honestly if this was me I would get a full work up done by the vet. If something is found then I would weigh up the options for the mare. If this is not a physical issue and purely behavioural then you have had three and a half years to address it. So I would honestly be thinking get my finger out my butt and give her your undivided attention and try and sort her issues out or I would be looking to PTS.

Horses are meant to be fun. When I was younger I took on projects spent the time and effort and loved watching them turnaround. Now I have too much to lose and I want to have fun and enjoy riding so projects aren't as appealing anymore. It may be kinder to the mare and to yourself if you cannot sort her out to let her go and PTS as you could not in good conscience sell her on.

Purely going on my reading your posts on this thread OP good luck and be safe.
 
Fun Times said:
But your original issue wasn't about making her braver or less spooky. It was about the fact you can't safely lead or ride her. Am genuinely sure the groundwork will help with spooky/brave issues but I had thought your original qu was about her broncing like stink with you in canter? Am not convinced a tarp will fix that.
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What you don't think if I could get her to trust me, trust that I won't put her in harms way, that groundwork would not help with hacking and spooking in the school when ridden? She can trot round in the school just fine but if a bird farts she's off, sometimes a small skuttle sometimes she brings out the big guns, So I assume you suggest I just get on and cling on for dear life, that's not gonna happen.
 
snopuma said:
What you don't think if I could get her to trust me, trust that I won't put her in harms way, that groundwork would not help with hacking and spooking in the school when ridden? She can trot round in the school just fine but if a bird farts she's off, sometimes a small skuttle sometimes she brings out the big guns, So I assume you suggest I just get on and cling on for dear life, that's not gonna happen.
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Of course that's not what I suggest. My suggestions were about fifteen pages back. I actually accepted your decision not to get a full vet work up. I think that alone does indeed justify you calling me a simpleton. Ets, the reason I was negative about the tarps idea isnt because I don't think it serves a purpose for particular issues, but those werent the issues your originally posted about.
 
snopuma said:
What you don't think if I could get her to trust me, trust that I won't put her in harms way, that groundwork would not help with hacking and spooking in the school when ridden? She can trot round in the school just fine but if a bird farts she's off, sometimes a small skuttle sometimes she brings out the big guns, So I assume you suggest I just get on and cling on for dear life, that's not gonna happen.
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I think that a horse will trust a handler who is confident, experienced and consistent. You have failed the mare in all these factors. You do not have the facilities or the experience to deal with her, accept it and find another home for her.
You seem to think that you can talk to her, negotiate terms, and get her to accept your ideas, but that is not how it works.
 
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snopuma said:
What you don't think if I could get her to trust me, trust that I won't put her in harms way, that groundwork would not help with hacking and spooking in the school when ridden? She can trot round in the school just fine but if a bird farts she's off, sometimes a small skuttle sometimes she brings out the big guns, So I assume you suggest I just get on and cling on for dear life, that's not gonna happen.
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There are lots of reasons that horses are overly reactive .

Pain , chronic and acute .
Bad training .
Bad riding .
Inappropriate management
Inappropriate diets including horses with intolerances .
Dental issues including those horses with problems with the jaw joint.
Some horses are sharper than others the sharp ones need riders who like working with that type .
Trust is not something the horse gives you it's something you teach the horse .
 
amymay said:
I mention it again, just in case you missed it first time around.

Quote Originally Posted by amymay View Post
You do say op in a previous thread, which I've now bumped up, that the mare has had an ongoing back problem.
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Intrigued now (after refusing to get involved curiosity has got me!). Has she actually got a bad back? Genuine question, just wondered if there is an issue that you may have thought was resolved.

Sorry, Amymay, can't find the actual post.
 
Bonkers2 said:
I think that a horse will trust a handler who is confident, experienced and consistent. You have failed the mare in all these factors. You do not have the facilities or the experience to deal with her, accept it and find another home for her.
You seem to think that you can talk to her, negotiate terms, and get her to accept your ideas, but that is not how it works.
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What facilities do you think I need? No I have not failed her and No I am not going to sell her on or give her away and not going to take that kind of advice from someone who has quite frankly been outrageously rude in their comments.
 
snopuma said:
What facilities do you think I need? No I have not failed her and No I am not going to sell her on or give her away and not going to take that kind of advice from someone who has quite frankly been outrageously rude in their comments.
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I know you won't take my advice or that of any other experienced people on here, but maybe tomorrow you might see the light, lets hope so.
People get annoyed because of your responses.
 
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Bonkers2 said:
I know you won't take my advice or that of any other experienced people on here, but maybe tomorrow you might see the light, lets hope so.
People get annoyed because of your responses.
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You still didn't answer my question, What facilities do you think I need?
 
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