Ex-raccehorse woes, seriously what am I going to do?

Cheiro1 said:
I know you will ignore this but I will say it anyway....VET!

Just because a horse is sound, and can be bullied to behave, does not mean there is nothing wrong.

I watched a horse (not mine) be bullied by his very experienced rider because he would go well one day and then be completely un-ridably explosive the next. On the good days he would have won any dressage test going.

He was bone scanned and he had a sacrilliac injury, that was treated and he never looked back. He competed very successfully in dressage then went on loan to someone who does a bit of everything with him.

Horses are prey animals, they are designed to hide pain. Soundness does not = no pain!!
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I suspect you are right.
OP is in denial, I feel for the horse, and I wonder what those who know her think, I suspect they have given up trying to advise a long time ago.
 
Why O Why do people keep on about turnout, at the moment I cannot turn her out, my other horse is on box rest, so she has no-one to go out with and when I do turn her out as soon as I let her go she wants to come in, I walk away and leave her for an hour at least she is out of sight of the yard and I muck out, then I sneak up to where I can see the gate and she can't see me and there she is waving a leg at the gate in a terrible state, sweating, covered in mud.
 
snopuma said:
Why O Why do people keep on about turnout, at the moment I cannot turn her out, my other horse is on box rest, so she has no-one to go out with and when I do turn her out as soon as I let her go she wants to come in, I walk away and leave her for an hour at least she is out of sight of the yard and I muck out, then I sneak up to where I can see the gate and she can't see me and there she is waving a leg at the gate in a terrible state, sweating, covered in mud.
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So the responses so far are basically:

1. Turn her out. 2. Work her. 3. Vet work up. 4. Send her for schooling. 5. Groundwork. 6. Look at her feed. 7. Sell her. 8. Get a trainer/experienced sharer. 9. Pts.

Realistically OP what more can people come up with? Of the above options, which do you think is the most viable?
 
snopuma said:
If u had read you would see that I haven't ridden her since October
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I have read all the way through. Sorry, I should have phrased better, how often is she being worked? I'm sorry that I have made you feel defensive, but reading through my replies, bar the last one which was short, I have written out some advice, explained it and said that your situation must be horrible. I have asked questions as this is how we can give advice, by learning her routine. The vast majority of people have been supportive and offered advice, bar one or two who have been rude. There is no need to treat everyone like they are being rude when many people have offered constructive advice.

I repeat my advice about the work. It doesn't matter if it's not you doing it but she either needs to be out or she needs to be worked a lot. Unless a horse is on medical boxrest I'm pretty sure it's illegal for a horse to be in 24/7 without sufficient exercise and stimulation. This is a welfare issue.

Does she actually work well for the trainer or does she still try it on in canter? If she does try it on with the trainer, how much work was she in at the time? This is important, because if there is nothing physically wrong it simply could be lack of work and a naturally tricky horse. My old mare was an absolute nightmare if she wasn't ridden 6 days a week. The work had to be varied or again she would be very naughty. I had huge issues with my confidence as a result but consistency was the key. Some horses need more work than others, and it sounds to me as if your mare could potentially be one of those. You need to decide if you can provide it.

As I see it, if you want to persevere, sending her away to a trainer you trust for a month would be a good investment. It would give her the level of work she may need and start the road to correcting her behavioural issues so you could then begin to take over. However, if your confidence is in shreds, I'm not sure it will ever return with this mare as trusting her again will be very difficult for you.
 
snopuma said:
Why O Why do people keep on about turnout, at the moment I cannot turn her out, my other horse is on box rest, so she has no-one to go out with and when I do turn her out as soon as I let her go she wants to come in, I walk away and leave her for an hour at least she is out of sight of the yard and I muck out, then I sneak up to where I can see the gate and she can't see me and there she is waving a leg at the gate in a terrible state, sweating, covered in mud.
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................ so she has been not turned out since October? this gets worse, may I suggest you ask WHW to come and help you, why do you not get rid of her, it cannot be a worse fate ahead than the situation she is in now.
You said a trainer rode her, is this four years ago or was it yesterday, what has prompted you to come on here, why did you come on here? Have you no compassion for this horse? This is an animal not some status symbol.
This may appear to be rude, it is not my first post and I have followed the thread with increasing concern, not concern for OP, but for the horse.
 
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snopuma said:
And to those who insist I get her worked up at the vets, NO, for the last time NO, she works incredibly well for the trainer, not a hint of a medical problem so please stop banging on.

I poured my heart out in a forum, I have learnt my lesson.
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I try not to be rude to people on forums... But this comment is an exception. Your poor horse. Do you not think that loads of different people have been in the same situation as you have. You stupid, stupid person.

I certainly have and if I'd have called the vet sooner, I might have been able to help my horse more than I could have done, and saved her some of the pain she was in... And she certainly wasn't exhibiting issues as bad as yours.
 
Bonkers2 said:
................ so she has been not turned out since October? this gets worse, may I suggest you ask WHW to come and help you, why do you not get rid of her, it cannot be a worse fate ahead than the situation she is in now.
You said a trainer rode her, is this four years ago or was it yesterday, what has prompted you to come on here, why did you come on here? Have you no compassion for this horse? This is an animal not some status symbol.
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I don't think she has been in since october. October is when she stopped being ridden and her turnout was gradually reduced during autumn and winter. That's my understanding anyway.....
 
snopuma said:
Why O Why do people keep on about turnout, at the moment I cannot turn her out, my other horse is on box rest, so she has no-one to go out with and when I do turn her out as soon as I let her go she wants to come in, I walk away and leave her for an hour at least she is out of sight of the yard and I muck out, then I sneak up to where I can see the gate and she can't see me and there she is waving a leg at the gate in a terrible state, sweating, covered in mud.
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I think more people have given their experiences of horses with physical issues, frequently in seemingly sound horses, than kept on about her lack of turnout, I have no idea what you were expecting from this thread, you have either ignored or shot down all suggestions, the horse is obviously getting no better, the pro can ride her through her behaviour but has not sorted her out yet you expect someone on here to somehow give you the magic bullet to explain why she behaves the way she does.

I get that she doesn't like being out in the winter, I have had several similar but they will get fresh if not worked hard enough with some variety, it may be that a change of yard would help, what works for some doesn't work for others but if she was mine and I had struggled for this long, I would probably given up long ago if nothing had shown to be physically wrong, then I would either find somewhere to turn her away properly or seriously consider pts if I felt that sending her to a decent sales livery was not an option.

No one can see what you and others around you can, we only write from our own experiences therefore we will all come at it from slightly different angles, you are the only one that can actually do anything for her, getting a proper veterinary assessment should be the first step.
I know of someone who sent a horse into hospital for back xrays, suspected KS, the experts decided that the slight changes on xrays were not worth operating on, sent horse home with instructions to sedate to back him, yes that is correct, the horse was very difficult in many ways and had proved impossible to back and fairly wild at the vets, the instructions were ignored horse has recently had an op, elsewhere and has immediately changed in personality, not all vets get things right, in this case they were totally wrong to not operate, it has cost the owners way over the insurance due to them messing about looking at everywhere else once they had ruled out the back.

Listen to the horse, she is trying to tell you something is wrong.
 
snopuma said:
Why O Why do people keep on about turnout, at the moment I cannot turn her out, my other horse is on box rest, so she has no-one to go out with and when I do turn her out as soon as I let her go she wants to come in, I walk away and leave her for an hour at least she is out of sight of the yard and I muck out, then I sneak up to where I can see the gate and she can't see me and there she is waving a leg at the gate in a terrible state, sweating, covered in mud.
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Because to keep her without sufficient exercise and without turnout is simply completely unacceptable .
If you can't turn her out then she should be worked twice a day .
Borrow a pony is that what it takes to get the horse what she needs .
 
Fun Times said:
I don't think she has been in since october. October is when she stopped being ridden and her turnout was gradually reduced during autumn and winter. That's my understanding anyway.....
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It is not acceptable to keep a horse in stable, punching it the face, and all the rest of the nonsense.
If anyone knows OP and this horse would they please report it to WHW.
 
Bonkers2 said:
It is not acceptable to keep a horse in stable, punching it the face, and all the rest of the nonsense.
If anyone knows OP and this horse would they please report it to WHW.
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Hey I never said it was acceptable. I was just trying to respond to your comment about it being in since October as I didnt think that was the case.
 
OMG, what part of 'SHE WON'T STAY OUT FOR LONGER THAN AN HOUR' do you people not understand, perhaps you are happy to watch a horse gallop about for hours on end, your horse becoming so stressed at being out that she hurts herself? Is that what you propose I do, perhaps you could offer some words of wisdom about how you overcome that? So far every year its only when the weather is better she is happy to go out all day.

There has been some inspiration on this thread for me and I thank those that truly have an insight into Tb's and similar situations and advice has been more than helpful, but, it never ceases to amaze me how the trolls come out to play, to them I say, do you seriously think the horse has been banged up since October? Do you think I don't lunge her or let her kick her heels up in the school? Do you think I don't graze her in hand? All this time? You simpletons! You clearly don't have anything constructive or helpful to say you single out part of a sentence and take it out of context, well done 0/10 for you. I guess it makes you feel good about yourself I guess that's why you do it, you must have something lacking in your life.
 
I haven't read the rest of the thread after you listed her feed. Does FF contain alfalfa? Does she get less/different feed in Spring & Summer?
The TBx mare that I used to have who was very sensitive to some feed improved in summer when she wasn't getting as much feed. She became agoraphobic, amongst other things, in response to feed. For years I thought that there were other reasons for her behaviour but it was really all caused by feed.
If yours has any alfalfa at all, I would cut it out of her diet - mine could tolerate alfalfa, in fact that is what I fed her on as she got older but we have one now that can't cope with any - it sends her absolutely loopy!
There are other plausible reasons for your mare's behaviour but I wouldn't be surprised if feed is the root of all her problems.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
I haven't read the rest of the thread after you listed her feed. Does FF contain alfalfa? Does she get less/different feed in Spring & Summer?
The TBx mare that I used to have who was very sensitive to some feed improved in summer when she wasn't getting as much feed. She became agoraphobic, amongst other things, in response to feed. For years I thought that there were other reasons for her behaviour but it was really all caused by feed.
If yours has any alfalfa at all, I would cut it out of her diet - mine could tolerate alfalfa, in fact that is what I fed her on as she got older but we have one now that can't cope with any - it sends her absolutely loopy!
There are other plausible reasons for your mare's behaviour but I wouldn't be surprised if feed is the root of all her problems.
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You think it is related to feed, FF is just a mix of sugar beet and stuff, its pretty minimal. I would imagine it has had a few different feeds over the 4 years in the hands of OP.
 
snopuma said:
OMG, what part of 'SHE WON'T STAY OUT FOR LONGER THAN AN HOUR' do you people not understand, perhaps you are happy to watch a horse gallop about for hours on end, your horse becoming so stressed at being out that she hurts herself? Is that what you propose I do, perhaps you could offer some words of wisdom about how you overcome that? So far every year its only when the weather is better she is happy to go out all day.

There has been some inspiration on this thread for me and I thank those that truly have an insight into Tb's and similar situations and advice has been more than helpful, but, it never ceases to amaze me how the trolls come out to play, to them I say, do you seriously think the horse has been banged up since October? Do you think I don't lunge her or let her kick her heels up in the school? Do you think I don't graze her in hand? All this time? You simpletons! You clearly don't have anything constructive or helpful to say you single out part of a sentence and take it out of context, well done 0/10 for you. I guess it makes you feel good about yourself I guess that's why you do it, you must have something lacking in your life.
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That's all you had to say. There's no point in getting frustrated with people going on about something when you won't correct them politely. If you had quietly explained your routine pages ago then there would have been a lot less aggro. Tbh you still haven't really explained it properly, as in how much she is getting each day. You either want advice or you don't. I have noticed on HHO that the threads that get a bit snarky are those where the OP doesn't really answer any of the questions asked and just gets defensive.
 
There is no magic fix for your horse.

Either you completely change everything about how she is kept and ridden (so she can be turned out most of the time, and worked regularly). Or you shoot her. Because she certainly isn't sellable.

Since you won't listen to advice you don't like, and therefore won't change what you're doing, shoot her. It's no fun for you, it's certainly no fun for her and I'd bet quite a lot of money that she's in pain when asked to canter (but you're not willing to investigate that)
 
She doesnt stay out where she is now, but lots of people say there horses wont stay out 24/7. They always do in the right environment! if shes not happy at your yard, then move her! Look for a yard where they have lots of acreage and limited mud. Its doable! My boy who is on loan goes out daily for a paddle in the mud. My other horse is roughly a mile down the road,, ot 24/7 on 30 acres of sandy soil.

But before you do that get a bloody vet workup!! My sister had untold very reputable people out to her mare and not one found a back problem. She went in for a work up as she flipped and went over backwards. They found severe kissing spines. Not one back person had found that, because you bloody well CANT without an xray!
 
Sorry OP, but your mare is exhibiting behaviour that the majority of us believe could be stemming from pain, with a routine which could also be compounding it. I speak from experience when I say GET A FULL VET WORK UP. My 2* Eventer had a tumble jumping, had time off, worked him back in slowly, but he had become unpredictably explosive in the canter. He showed no other outward signs of pain, irregularity, or that anything was off. Turned out it was a practically career ending injury to his SI.

I've retrained quite a few OTTBs and can vouch that they need a solid, regular work routine. Better to ride them every day of the week with some easy hacking/walking around the school as 'off days', than to give them time off sometimes. Once they begin to mould into a 'riding' horse rather than a race horse, their work routine can become more flexible.

I've said before and I'll say it again; from what you've written, I truly believe your mare needs some serious ground work. Not only will this help with your confidence, her obedience and trust, but will also help build her back up physically, help her to become stronger and more supple. Find a good trainer to help you.

No one has any 'tips' or 'hints' which will fix this. We have all answered your plea with firm answers, because the picture you've painted is one which could have devastating outcomes, and is frankly, unusual. Horses don't behave like your mare is 'just because', there is usually a reason and YOU have to find out WHY. Many posters have given you great suggestions for you to now compile into a list, and start ticking them off one by one. It might be the last thing on your list which turns this horse around, no one will know until you try!
 
snopuma said:
Why O Why do people keep on about turnout, at the moment I cannot turn her out, my other horse is on box rest, so she has no-one to go out with and when I do turn her out as soon as I let her go she wants to come in, I walk away and leave her for an hour at least she is out of sight of the yard and I muck out, then I sneak up to where I can see the gate and she can't see me and there she is waving a leg at the gate in a terrible state, sweating, covered in mud.
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Because without company and turnout you are p******g in the wind. I'd seriously get her turned out 24/7 and if that doesn't improve things, either get her vetted thoroughly or pts.
 
When you try to turn her out does she have hay in the field? If not it would be worth trying. It could also be indicative of ulcers if she finds turnout in winter so stressful.

I think it would be worth moving her to a yard where she can have more exercise. Somewhere with a walker and where she can have hay and company when turned out. Then work her, once a day on the walker once being ridden by a good patient person with experience of OTTBs.

If on this sort of routine with minimal hard feed she doesn't improve then you would seem to be left with a choice between full investigation at a vets for things like KS and ulcers or putting her to sleep. If she improves I would sell (honestly) to someone who can give her the work and routine she needs so you can buy a horse that will help you rebuild your confidence.
 
You don't sound like you are set up to cater for her needs, for whatever reason.
Do the mare a favour and either sell her or put her to sleep, she sounds like a very unhappy horse.
 
All i can say is you are incredibly rude, we are all trying to help based on our own in most cases very sad experiences (I hope your horse isn't it pain but the sad reality is that she probably is). But you are dismissing us all. Maybe you should get rid of her even pts would be a better life than living with you I suspect.

Sorry I am never rude on her but you take the metaphorical biscuit.
 
ihatework said:
You don't sound like you are set up to cater for her needs, for whatever reason.
Do the mare a favour and either sell her or put her to sleep, she sounds like a very unhappy horse.
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Take on board all the advice you've been given OP which has come from some VERY experienced Horsepeople, you'd be a fool to dismiss it.

When I needed them, they were there and goodness knows what would of happened if they hadn't helped. There's no axe to grind, they are there without a fee, your horse is crying out to be heard please listen.

What's done is done for the love of the horse and the horse only.
 
FrankieCob said:
Its really not acceptable to punch a horse in the face no matter how frustrated and angry you are! If its got that bad then you need to rehome or PTS if the behaviour is really that bad. Horses dont care about "contracts" or clean beds!
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I missed that original comment from snopuma, has it been deleted? What a terrible thing to say,and after all of her comments it's quite obvious who the ignorant one is, and it isn't the horse.
 
"You simpletons!"

How incredibly rude, when people are trying to help you. "my other horse is on box rest" so?? Borrow a pony, shetland, whatever, get this horse some turnout! I wouldnt have even considered trying to do a thing with my TB unless he had plenty of turnout and hooly time.

If you care about this horse you will stop making excuses and do what people have suggested! A lot of people on here have a hell of a lot more experience from the sounds of it than you. YES TB's will wave their legs arounds and fence gallop, but get a companion and put some hay out, dont pander to it and generally they start enjoying being out.
 
ljohnsonsj said:
I missed that original comment from snopuma, has it been deleted? What a terrible thing to say,and after all of her comments it's quite obvious who the ignorant one is, and it isn't the horse.
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Its all in the first post


QUOTE "So my predicament is that despite the fact that I love this little madam and she has her good points, she's great in the stable, loves a groom etc... she is the worst horse to lead in from the field, I have tried every gadget and she has no respect, she launches through the air spins round, canters next to you virtually on the spot rears up, she used to put the fear of God into me, she doesn't even respect a chifney I am surprised I have broken her jaw with her carry-on, she has no respect for me at all, now I am not a wus and I give as good as she's gets, I am ashamed to say that I have punched her ignorant face when she has really pushed it with me, not that there was much reaction, in fact little at all, I have tried being overly nice and praising her every good move. Nothing works, she just looks at me like 'Sucker' do my bidding. I have desensitised her with the lunge whip as she was terrified of it, I have never hit her, I just wiggle it on the floor, now she is desensitised she now has decided that she will stop whenever she likes and just look around, and now I am between the rock and the hard place" UNQUOTE

It seems OP wants the horse to behave in exchange for a clean bed, but the horse has not accepted OP's contract, as she explains somewhere else.

We don't know what is the OP's dilemma, what is the Rock, what is the Hard Place.......
I only know the horse must be very unhappy.
 
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