Fosse Park Leicester horses
- Thread starter Ladyinred
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YorksG
Over the hill and far awa
Please read my post again, surely we put the welfare of humans above that of animals, so by that standard intervention should happen sooner when it is thought that a person is at risk of harm? If we are going to change the law to ensure that animals are protected, on the say so of one agency, we should apply the same change of law to protect people.
Moomin1
Well-Known Member
Very true.
magicmoose
Well-Known Member
I don't believe that we should give any charity the right to seize animals (no matter how well intentioned). Those powers should quite rightly remain with the police, under the advice of a qualified vet.
PETA is an animal charity - should they have the right to seize NH racehorses because they believe that racing is abusive? Or livestock from farms because we shouldn't be eating meat? Where would you draw the line?
PETA is an animal charity - should they have the right to seize NH racehorses because they believe that racing is abusive? Or livestock from farms because we shouldn't be eating meat? Where would you draw the line?
missmatch
Well-Known Member
Wow!! This is a thread regarding horses at Fosse park, not a rip each other to bits thread. This is the issue with people, there are so many heightened emotions surrounding these horses that soon the wood is completely lost to the trees.
The horses are ok, not anywhere near what we would consider acceptable but they are ok
We all love our horses like our babies. To this owner they are £ signs. This is not illegal.
The welfare agencies are working together. The RSPCA are dealing with this. The vet was onsite yesterday. It is intolerably slow but progress is being made
Please please please put all your passion into helping these horses and the thousands just like them.
Otherwise this just resembles the Facebook group - which is full of hatred and spite. You are all so much better than that.
The horses are ok, not anywhere near what we would consider acceptable but they are ok
We all love our horses like our babies. To this owner they are £ signs. This is not illegal.
The welfare agencies are working together. The RSPCA are dealing with this. The vet was onsite yesterday. It is intolerably slow but progress is being made
Please please please put all your passion into helping these horses and the thousands just like them.
Otherwise this just resembles the Facebook group - which is full of hatred and spite. You are all so much better than that.
Moomin1
Well-Known Member
The problem with these social media sites/groups that are created these days over issues like this, is that it ends up a snowball effect, with warped information from all sorts of sources (well meaning perhaps, I am not saying otherwise), and at the end of the day it starts becoming very mob like, resulting in a lot of instances being trial by media.
Some people just don't think before they jump to conclusions. One post on the fb group actually said that they 'couldn't believe that nobody could find any offence of neglect and suffering when there is a carcass lying there which is so decomposed that nobody can tell how it died' (their words). Well, that's the EXACT point - if nobody can tell HOW and WHY a horse died because it is so decomposed, then nobody can possibly present that infront of a court of law and say it was caused to suffer through neglect. Simple. We may take a very good guess that it may have, or so and so down the road may say it had, but it is NOT evidence. Just the same as if a human body washes up on the shore completely decomposed with no way of telling how it came to that demise. It may well be that person fell in and drowned. Or they may well have been murdered. Or committed suicide. A decomposed horse may well have been pts humanely, or died of natural causes, or may well have been neglected and starved. But unless it can be proven by post mortem that was the case, then there is nothing that can be done.
I am not trying to be negative when I say this - it is fact.
Some people just don't think before they jump to conclusions. One post on the fb group actually said that they 'couldn't believe that nobody could find any offence of neglect and suffering when there is a carcass lying there which is so decomposed that nobody can tell how it died' (their words). Well, that's the EXACT point - if nobody can tell HOW and WHY a horse died because it is so decomposed, then nobody can possibly present that infront of a court of law and say it was caused to suffer through neglect. Simple. We may take a very good guess that it may have, or so and so down the road may say it had, but it is NOT evidence. Just the same as if a human body washes up on the shore completely decomposed with no way of telling how it came to that demise. It may well be that person fell in and drowned. Or they may well have been murdered. Or committed suicide. A decomposed horse may well have been pts humanely, or died of natural causes, or may well have been neglected and starved. But unless it can be proven by post mortem that was the case, then there is nothing that can be done.
I am not trying to be negative when I say this - it is fact.
missmatch
Well-Known Member
Moomin is 100% right. There is absolutely no evidence of any offence hence why the RSPCA have been unable to respond as some people would like.
It's sad but true.
It's sad but true.
YorksG
Over the hill and far awa
It is hardly sad that there is no evidence of an offence!
missmatch
Well-Known Member
It is sad that they are unable to prosecute as there is no evidence of an offence, I should have clarified that.
Moomin1
Well-Known Member
Maybe there wasn't an offence at all in the instance of the dead horse? It may have died of natural causes or been pts? With regard the rotting carcass being left, yes it is an offence - but not one which the RSPCA should deal with. That as I have said before is down to trading standards and DEFRA.
YorksG
Over the hill and far awa
Well thank goodness we only prosecute onevidence, rather than "what everybody knows" If there is no evidence of an offence, there IS no offence!
missmatch
Well-Known Member
Maybe there wasnt, there was simply no way of telling. The carcass could not be removed due to access issues. Both horses were removed as soon as they were able to get a jcb on the land
I agree with you it was not an RSPCA issue but they are the first port of call from the public even for dead animals.
I agree with you it was not an RSPCA issue but they are the first port of call from the public even for dead animals.
Moomin1
Well-Known Member
Yes and I think that is where the public are misinterpreting - I think people see a dead animal and always jump straight to the conclusion it must be neglect or foul play. They also then don't realise (no fault of their own at all, just the way it is) that establishing whether any offence may or may not have been committed depends greatly (almost completely) on the level of decomposition of the animal. If it is too decomposed, then it will not be possible to ascertain how and why that animal died.
The problem with a picture such as the one in this instance with a decomposed carcass, is that it's human nature to be shocked, horrified and automatically think it must be bad and must be neglect etc etc. Then the good old social media sites get started, and Joe Bloggs and his wife post this, and someone else that, and a furore gets up, and people lose all sight of reason. If they looked outside the box just for a minute, they may come to the thought that in fact, that carcass may have died naturally, with no suffering caused by a human being whatsoever. And before anyone jumps on me, I am NOT saying that there are or aren't issues here with the general welfare, I am just talking generally.
Patterdale
Well-Known Member
Fully agree with this.
Putting this kind of power into the hands of charities would be v dangerous indeed IMO.
lannerch
Well-Known Member
I to apart from the decomposed carcass , am struggling to see the problem here.
The horses in the background all look very well to me or am I missing something if they really are being fed black hay it seems to be working!
I regularly see dead calfs and cows carcasses at a local dairy farm, they are only left one or two days before being picked up and removed , however they are on hardcore and easy to reach.
Death happens, animals die in the wild no one picks them up , although not ideal I really cannot understand all the fuss here!
The horses in the background all look very well to me or am I missing something if they really are being fed black hay it seems to be working!
I regularly see dead calfs and cows carcasses at a local dairy farm, they are only left one or two days before being picked up and removed , however they are on hardcore and easy to reach.
Death happens, animals die in the wild no one picks them up , although not ideal I really cannot understand all the fuss here!
Kaycee
Active Member
So a younghorse collapsed in the flood water and subsequently destroyed by a vet is okthen??! With all due respect, you need to witness the situation first handbefore you can casually dismiss it as a big fuss about nothing. As someone wholives nearby and has witnessed the appalling state of these animals for manyyears, I for one am so grateful for all the support via the social media and Imhopeful that something will at last be done, as up until now all of thecomplaints to the relevant authorities have fallen on deaf ears.
Moomin1
Well-Known Member
With all due respect, 'witnessing' a collapsed horse is no proof of anything.
Perhaps it collapsed due to sudden colic? Perhaps it had an underlying condition? Or yes, perhaps it was neglected.
People need to take a step back and think outside the box. Only the owner, officers involved, and the vets know exactly what is going on, despite numerous (oh and there are hundreds) Joe Bloggs claiming to know because they 'saw it as they drove past', or so and so said they went and spoke to so and so at the scene.
missmatch
Well-Known Member
What would you all like to be done? Realistically what would you do different whilst staying within the boundaries of the law? The only thing that reasonably can be done now is to support a petition to change the law. The loophole on horsemeat export is being dealt with. I believe that comes into effect in May, I may be wrong. If horses are to be bred for meat then the breeders should adhere to the same rules as those breeding cattle etc... There is an update today regarding the horses and a statement is due later, hopefully people can see that things were happening all along
ChesnutsRoasting
Well-Known Member
I'm interested to know how long it would take for a carcass of that size to reach that level of decomposition? Haven't read the entire thread, so apologies if it has already been discussed.
diamonddogs
Well-Known Member
Yes, so would I.
And as a caring horse owner, I would be absolutely mortified if a horse died in her field and was left overnight without good reason, let alone so long that only pelt and bones remained (I've seen the latest pics on FB and there are bones that have been lying around for years). Are we expected to believe that happy, healthy horses don't care if carcasses are left to rot where they're trying to graze?
And sorry, lack of access to remove the carcasses doesn't cut it - if the RSPCA or whoever could get a JCB in there with a couple of days' notice, that scumbag could too.
And as a caring horse owner, I would be absolutely mortified if a horse died in her field and was left overnight without good reason, let alone so long that only pelt and bones remained (I've seen the latest pics on FB and there are bones that have been lying around for years). Are we expected to believe that happy, healthy horses don't care if carcasses are left to rot where they're trying to graze?
And sorry, lack of access to remove the carcasses doesn't cut it - if the RSPCA or whoever could get a JCB in there with a couple of days' notice, that scumbag could too.
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ChesnutsRoasting
Well-Known Member
I agree. I'm just thinking that if the RSPCA are unable to prosecute under the Animal Welfare Act, could another authority prosecute instead http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/881/regulation/6/made. I don't know anything regarding law and I could be barking up the wrong tree entirely, but Someone, somewhere must be able to pin something on the owner?
Moomin1
Well-Known Member
Plenty of horses in the wild graze around carcasses.
That being said, no, of course it isn't acceptable for a rotting carcass to be left in a field with other animals. Hence why it is an offence which trading standards or DEFRA should deal with.
Moomin1
Well-Known Member
As I have said a few times, carcasses left to rot in fields are dealt with by trading standards and DEFRA.
As for people arguing that it is a 'welfare' concern to other horses in the field to be subjected to grazing around a carcass, well, you would have to get a vet to support on a prosecution saying that the rotting carcass is either causing those live horses to suffer, or be likely to suffer if it is not removed. Most vets won't even go near giving any evidence on 'mental suffering' as it is so subjective. Physical suffering - what sort of physical suffering may be caused to live animals grazing around a carcass? Don't know myself...answers on a postcard...
diamonddogs
Well-Known Member
Flies mainly. Mentally though, I don't know if a horse would be distressed by witnessing a known predator such as a fox, lion or sabre tooth tiger munching away on one of its herdmates. I would hazard a guess that they'd run for the hills till the predator had had its fill and left the scene, but I honestly don't know.
Moomin1
Well-Known Member
As far as I am aware, there are no lions or sabre tooth tigers in this country.....
OWLIE185
Well-Known Member
The rotting carcass is an issue which should be taken up by DEFRA and Trading Standards. They need to identify the owner of the dead horses and the cause of death of the horses concerned If a vet or slaughter man was involved then they need to take a statement from them as well. Once this has been done it should be possible to demonstrate if the owner of the dead horses may have been negligent and if he has a case to answer to in which case he should be charged, prosecuted and go through the court system to be judged and sentenced.
ChesnutsRoasting
Well-Known Member
Moomin, There should be no need to have to prove anything, non-removal of fallen stock is an offence in itself.A rotting carcass would attract vermin and I would also be concerned regarding public health and water contamination. Makes you laugh, put a muck heap near a ditch and environmental health will want your blood, but a rotting carcass is fine? Another example of Barmy Britain.
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Moomin1
Well-Known Member
How can they identify cause of death from a pile of skin and bones? It's impossible. They can only go from information given by the owner and other first hand resources, which in this instance, apparently, the horse died from natural causes. As far as the carcass goes, then you don't need to establish cause of death in order for it to be an offence for the carcass to be left. Like you say, it is within the remit of trading standards and defra to deal with that side of things.
Patterdale
Well-Known Member
*Snort*
Can you prove it?
Seriously though - yes, not removing a rotting carcass is an offence, but one that is committed by hundreds of farmers weekly (not us though!).
It's really not a rare thing.
And I agree, they can't really PM a skeleton.
The welfare services are stuck. They CAN'T prosecute or remove animals without proof, of which there is NONE. Being a bit lean and muddy is not an offence in itself, and even though its not how WE might keep horses, that doesn't mean it's right, legally, to just wade in and take them.
Prince33Sp4rkle
Well-Known Member
me too.
the others look well, some even too blinkin well and portly!
if the horse died of a sudden colic etc then the worst offence is the none removal of the carcass which is gross but hardly worth this fuss.
equally until i hear the horse collapsed in the water was weak through malnutrition, i will reserve judgment-broken leg, sudden illness, trapped by debris bought in by flood water, possibilities are numerous.
being muddy and wormy are not really worthy of this ...... I see the horses regularly enough and whilst not in ideal conditions they always look ok.