Grand National 2012- Carnage! What did everyone think?

[SusannaF]

So we should all shut up them? Is that really what you are saying?
Abuse takes many forms and much of it is done by humans who believe they are animal lovers... they love on their terms though.
This thread is about the National so that is what I am objecting to.
I can go on about Conklin Dairy Farms etc. etc. but don't think it is relevant to this thread.

Nope, I'm not saying we should all shut up. I'm saying that I can't leap on board the whole "condemn the Grand National out of hand" bandwagon because I think I'm pretty compromised.

I've posted elsewhere (in Latest News) about my fears that if something doesn't improve in racing it'll go the way of hunting. I don't want the baby thrown out with the bathwater. In Australia the fatality rate is lower than in the UK and far lower than in the US, and there is a very serious campaign up and running to ban all jump racing. I think it's even been banned in certain states.

What bothers me is that the general public and a lot of people on this thread see it in black and white terms. ie. "All racing is cruel and the owners/trainers are greedy". Rather than the more realistic, "how can we minimise casualties in racing while accepting that there will always be some fatalities?"

The changing public perception of animals is part of my field of study as a writer, and I think we're in danger of having people who know nothing about horses condemning the horse industry (and all horse owners) as cruel and inhumane etc etc etc.

To my mind, everyone needs to be aware of what JessTickle called our "duty of care" to animals and also to be realistic about the fact that we, as a species, use and consume animals unneccessarily for our own pleasure.

 

[criso]

http://www.aintree.co.uk/pages/grand-national-winners/

Shows you times and going.

Very surprised the times aren't much quicker...it looks to have got faster on averagre by about 20 seconds but I would have expected more.

But horses could starting off going quicker but not finishing.

When you look at the figures the 90s and 00s are the worst decades which is when they starting tweaking the course with Bechers being changed in 1989.

I don't know how much you can trust the really early figures but assume 60's 70's and 80's are accurate and there were fewer fatalities.

 

[lannerch]

I disagree beechers was not part of according to Petes death yes he was brought down by another horse however that other horse had fallen due to beechers!
In a very roundabout way it was a major part in both deaths this year .
So drop fences should be reviewed as certainly should the size of the field why do many? Fewer horses more space to avoid the fewer fallers, simple!

 

[Dab]

Take this year, anyone entering had a 5% chance of their horse dying in the race. Another 5% chance of serious injury (2 being treated) Thats basically a 10% chance of loosing your horse one way or the other. Perhaps more if you looked at how many will never race again.

Would any of us enter any competition with those kind of odds. I dont think so.

Not sure i follow the stats? Are these based on the outcome of this years race alone or those taken over say a 20 year period?

But nevertheless the most recent two races has resulted in two fatalities on course. Not sure it is down to speed when you look at the times, going and number of runners as we had similiar times in 95, 96 and 97 on good going but with fewer fatalities.

Maybe the jocks are more gung-ho, horses are not prepared well enough, breed differently, fences too small, ground faster, unfortunate set of circumstances, the planets were mis-aligned. Whatever the reason, it should be investigated in an un-biased manor and issues addressed, knee-jerk reactions and mass hysteria never solves anything.

 

[mon]

Has the standard of horse and their ability to look after them selves deteriorated? Red Rum by all talk was little jumped a more difficult course and managed to jum 150 fences with hardly a peck was he just a genius or the higher fences made horse and jockey look after themselves more?

 

[tristar]

as a believer in fate or whatever you want to call it, the tragic death of such a high profile and successful horse such as syncronised, says to me that we are being shown we are doing something wrong, fate is trying educate us, and the ripple effect of this should force us all to examine the lives of horses in the broadest sense, from how we ride and train our horses to how their daily lives are managed, and how what we do to them, whether hacking out through to top performance and see where we are going wrong.

 

[dancebaben]

Not read the other replies but my thoughts are that they need to make qualifying for the national harder and to cap the number of horses in the race if nothing else.

Forty horses whittle down very quickly when fallers take out other horses.

I wonder if the number of fallers and accidents would reduce if there were only twenty allowed to race?

It was sad to hear about the horses yesterday - I didn't watch it because it upsets me to watch them go down.

 

[fburton]

It angers me that the public get so uptight about deaths in the National, yet they completely overlook the deaths that are occurring on a practically daily basis at all other racecourses. In the two days leading up to the National, there were deaths at Sedgefield, and at Fairyhouse....but nobody mentions them. Those who are calling for the National to be banned (and I'm not one of them) need to look at the bigger picture - if their problem is with horses being killed in racing, then it's not just the Grand National they should be targeting, but racing in general. And not just jump racing, either.

What do you think is the solution to this problem of ignorance - better reporting in the news, a high-profile documentary or two about racing warts and all?

 

[Clofox]

I've been to racing before and loved the atmosphere and everything, but this year the GN has shocked me.
All i can say is RIP to those beautiful talented horses who unfortuantley lost there lives,sleep tight Xxx

 

[Tinseltoes]

In my opinion I thing the grand national should be sorted ASAP out by either by lowering and having less fences,shortening the field OR better still get rid of the grand national completely as its utter greed and too darn dangerous for those poor horses.
Though as we know nothing will change and we will be having this discussion again next year. (sighs).

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

As McCain put it - where there's livestock there's dead stock. Cows are bred for meat. Sheep are bred for meat. Pigs are bred for meat. If one dies in its field before it's date with a cleaver is there such an uproar? Tb's are bred to race.

 

[WandaMare]

As McCain put it - where there's livestock there's dead stock. Cows are bred for meat. Sheep are bred for meat. Pigs are bred for meat. If one dies in its field before it's date with a cleaver is there such an uproar? Tb's are bred to race.

McCain was a racehorse trainer so he is bound to justify his own business! Racing is a sport not a form of farming, the two are completely different. People don't pay to watch farming, they watch sport for entertainment and pleasure.

 

[amandap]

As McCain put it - where there's livestock there's dead stock. Cows are bred for meat. Sheep are bred for meat. Pigs are bred for meat. If one dies in its field before it's date with a cleaver is there such an uproar? Tb's are bred to race.

Perhaps breeding horses for meat instead is the answer then. There would be no/less fuss to make anyone question? We could bet on which will make it to the "cleaver" alive!
Welfare and ethics would be a lot simpler to sort out with horses 'batting' for other meat animals in UK.

I'll just hope there is less carnage next year... The GN gets so much stick because it is high profile but all racing needs to take a long hard look in the mirror imo. Horses (and other animals) are living, sentient beings despite what many seem to think. It's us that puts a value, be that a lot, little or none, on something living. Only we humans say that we are 'worth' more than animals in general.

 

[Jaycee]

Every year it makes me glad that my ex-racehorse never made it to Aintree! He was injured earlier in the year that he should have run! He was one of the lucky ones in away as he never raced again, and is living the life of riley! Every racehorse lost in racing is tragic, alot don't even get a mention, the Grand National is such a high profile race that there will also be an outcry if horses lose their lifes.

 

[ChesnutsRoasting]

To the person who reported my posts on this thread -
1 Don't be jel, be reem,
2 Be a lover, not a fighter,
3 Make love, not war,

Bless you and all who sail in you.

 

[Mariposa]

It's the first year that I've really felt sad - both horses looked so well, and were focussed on heavily in the build up.

I didn't think Synchronised look well, I thought he looked far too light for my liking. His coat was dull, he just didn't look right - in my opinion. There was no sparkle, he looks very different to how he looked at Cheltenham.

If you compared him to some of the others - for example Ballabrigs, who looks sleek, well covered and shiney and looked really up for it - there was no comparison.

I am very pro-racing, my grandfather was a National Hunt trainer so I am all for it...but I found the GN very hard to stomach this year.

 

[Wagtail]

We have had a lot of discussion regarding hypocrisy in that people are prepared to eat meat, wear leather etc, but yet think the GN is cruel. We have also had some people say that you cannot compare meat animals with horses etc. I can see all sides to these arguments, even though I do think they are irrelevant to whether or not the GN should be banned. Whether or not it is a cruel race, should be banned etc, is a subject which should be free for all to debate regardless of whether they themselves condone any form of cruelty in other areas of their lives (such as the way livestock is transported and slaughtered).

For the record, I don't eat meat, but don't think that those that do should not be allowed to suggest that they find the GN cruel. Also, for the record, I don't think other animals that are bred for meat should be treated any less well than horses. They are not less important and do not suffer less than a horse would in a similar situation. But, of course, this is all irrelevant to the current discussion.

The main difference IMO between eating meat and the GN, is that people eat meat for food, and do not televise the slaughter and take bets as to which animal will escape. I used to be a fan of the GN, but now find it difficult to understand why people would want to watch something where they have an extremely high chance of seeing an animal die before their eyes. To say they didn't suffer is rubbish. According to Pete continued with a broken leg. He was in pain for quite a while before he was PTS. We have also had horses such as Hear the echo collapse and die on the run up. Another a few years ago finished fifth, bless his soul, and collapsed and died after the race. He must have suffered SO much to literally be galloped to death.

 

[Tinseltoes]

there is now a petition on FB to BAN the grand national.

 

[lachlanandmarcus]

I do wish people would stop saying lower the fences to make it safer. Lowering the fences is, along with increasing the prize money exactly what has made it UNsafe. More modifications with lowering of fences will just make that worse, unless you basically remove everything that makes the GN different than other races, and if you do that, it aint the Grand National

Trying to appease the animals rights people and trying to make it a 'top class' race with high minimum ratings is the road to ruin.

The race should be run a bit earlier so noone is tempted to have a crack at it after Cheltenham and the ground has more chance of being softer, over bigger fences to make the horses slow down and respect them, and with less prize money to deter the greedy contingent. That way, it will be contested by the Ballabriggs of this world and not the general stamp of chaser, however top class. For me that would result in fewer falls.

The thing that is really telling about this years race is there were hardly any refusals apart from Vic Venturi and to me that is a warning sign, it is saying the fences are not clearly big enough for horses to make a decision about whether or not they fancy them, and are also approaching too fast to be able to put any decision about putting on the brakes.

I would also like to see the bypass fence gaps move reversed as I think it is causing more fatalities in the loose horses (eg Synchronised and another a couple of years back) than it is saving in the prevention of horses being 'taken out'.

The only 'softening' change I would support would be the reduction in numbers to 30, to give a better chance of seeing some space at the fence.

 

[Dab]

We have had a lot of discussion regarding hypocrisy in that people are prepared to eat meat, wear leather etc, but yet think the GN is cruel. We have also had some people say that you cannot compare meat animals with horses etc. I can see all sides to these arguments, even though I do think they are irrelevant to whether or not the GN should be banned. Whether or not it is a cruel race, should be banned etc, is a subject which should be free for all to debate regardless of whether they themselves condone any form of cruelty in other areas of their lives (such as the way livestock is transported and slaughtered).

For the record, I don't eat meat, but don't think that those that do should not be allowed to suggest that they find the GN cruel. Also, for the record, I don't think other animals that are bred for meat should be treated any less well than horses. They are not less important and do not suffer less than a horse would in a similar situation. But, of course, this is all irrelevant to the current discussion.

The main difference IMO between eating meat and the GN, is that people eat meat for food, and do not televise the slaughter and take bets as to which animal will escape. I used to be a fan of the GN, but now find it difficult to understand why people would want to watch something where they have an extremely high chance of seeing an animal die before their eyes. To say they didn't suffer is rubbish. According to Pete continued with a broken leg. He was in pain for quite a while before he was PTS. We have also had horses such as Hear the echo collapse and die on the run up. Another a few years ago finished fifth, bless his soul, and collapsed and died after the race. He must have suffered SO much to literally be galloped to death.

With regard to the point relating to hypocrisy and meat eating, whilst some people may be making this point, there are others who are saying that it is hypocritical to point the finger at racing and the National when those same people are very well prepared to turn a blind eye to the very many cases of horse cruelty that go on outside of racing.

It would appear that some people choose to hold racing to much higher standards than other horse professional and non-professionals alike, purely because they do not 'like' the sport or for other reasons that they do not want to be made public, or on the pretext that it is a sport or only for human entertainment.

With the National (this year or last) for example the fatalities happened in front of your eyes, quickly and in some cases plain view. There is no doubt that it draws immediate attention to the horses blight, it is not pleasant viewing and most people would prefer that these fatalities did not happen, and the best possible measures need to be taken to ensure that as much risk as possible is eliminated.

Furthermore, as some have pointed out when cruelty in other equine spheres is mentioned there is a call-out 'two wrongs don't make a right', this is true, but the arguement for banning racing would hold more weight if those individuals calling for a ban (and this is in general terms) looked at all equine spheres and applied the same standards across the board.

 

[Como]

The National is an appalling spectacle and has been for as long as I can remember. It is the modern day equivalent of a gladiator fight; the general public love it for the falls and fatalities. It is a disgrace to the beautiful sport of horse racing. The only important thing to everyone involved is money - the owner, trainers, gamblers and jockeys. Of course TBs are bred to race, but does that mean they should be exploited for the baying masses by this joke of a race? Ban the National I say. It is not a case of making it safer, then no one would watch. Just get rid of this national embarrassment.

 

[ribbons]

Ditto to the above by Dab.

And I know some of those shouting the loudest about racing cruelty are the self same people inflicting suffering on their own horses. I know because I see it.

 

[Tinseltoes]

For those of you who think it should be banned (me for one) heres a petition.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/ban-the-race/

 

[minesadouble]

Ditto to the above by Dab.

And I know some of those shouting the loudest about racing cruelty are the self same people inflicting suffering on their own horses. I know because I see it.

Well said!! I'm sick of people slating racing while their horse stands in it's box suffering from laminitis caused it's well meaning owner's ignorance. I see people riding their horses while they are unsound because they are too THICK to realise and even when it is pointed out deny the horse is unsound and continue. Don't even get me started on horses tethered or kept on allotments (of which in my area there are many).

There is one ex-livery from our yard who slates the National and calls for jump racing to be banned while her own horses look like walking skeletons!

Just because a horse death is in the public eye does not make it 'worse' than the thousands of accidental deaths that occur but are never reported.

It also boils my blood when people talk about the race being run in the name of 'greed' - Greed in my opinion doesn't come into it for the owners of the runners, if they were that financially astute they wouldn't own a racehorse in the first place!! Anyone who competes their horse is seeking achivement. I compete my horses and want them to win - who that competes does not want to win??? It's not greed, it's seeking achievement - and anyone who competes in ANY sphere is guilty of that!

If I had the choice between coming back to this life as a NH horse or a 'pet' horse owned by a well meaning but ignorant bunny hugger I know which I would choose!!!!

 

[Wagtail]

The person who set up the petition needs to spell 'their' correctly (not 'there') if they do not want to put people off. Badly spelt petitions will put me off every time.

 

[Tinseltoes]

The person who set up the petition needs to spell 'their' correctly (not 'there') if they do not want to put people off. Badly spelt petitions will put me off every time.

Not sure who set it up.It was posted on FB

 

[ribbons]

Minesadouble, it is enough to have you tearing your hair out isn't it.
My old dad used to say, there are horse people and then there are people who keep horses.
In his day there were more of the former, sadly (for the horses) there now seem to be more of the latter.

 

[minesadouble]

For those of you who think it should be banned (me for one) heres a petition.

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/ban-the-race/

Errmmm... just clicked on that link - is there a reason why the picture at the top left is actually of an Eventer rather than a racehorse!!

I just give up with this forum!

 

[A Guilding]

Errmmm... just clicked on that link - is there a reason why the picture at the top left is actually of an Eventer rather than a racehorse!!

I just give up with this forum!

I'm new to this literacy thing but in the petition isn't downward one word?

 

[Tinseltoes]

Errmmm... just clicked on that link - is there a reason why the picture at the top left is actually of an Eventer rather than a racehorse!!

I just give up with this forum!

Don't know why.Someone on FB did mention it to someone.Not sure if they will change pic or not.No clue.Nothing to do with me.