Grand National 2012- Carnage! What did everyone think?

[Dab]

Has anyone looked at the times to see if the races have actually got faster?

The last few years has been run on good to firm which will usually result in a faster time. And i think the last couple of years have been on the fast side, and right up there, but not the fastest, i think Rummy was very fast on one of his wins.

Struggling to find the race time for todays winner.

 

[Laafet]

Laafet I agree that these horses deaths sad as they were detracted from the success of the winner.

I think its ironic and Im not trying to be funny here that the more safety measures they put in place the more fatalities seem to be occuring and Im referring to this year and last. Its my opinion that everytime they lower the fences the faster they go and with bigger fences horses give them more respect. Perhaps making the landing side of Bechers less steep would also have an effect.

Well said, actually on Morning Line last year John Francome said that making the fences easier/smaller was wrong as it allowed the horses to go faster and hence have more falls. He said they should keep the heights big to prevent this.

 

[jenki13]

True, true and i wonder what the owners of According to Pete would say about stopping the National?

Tricky one that about watering the ground, can cause a lot more problems than it solves, with uneven wet-spots causing legs to break.
What about holding it earlier in the year, cooler and wetter weather? (havent done any research, just a thought)

It's a thought but I expect they'd say it would be too close to Cheltenham?

Also I'm not sure what it's been like round Aintree but our fields have been dry till the last week! Was extremely glad of the rain when I finally got to go for a gallop friday

 

[millimoo]

This race makes me feel sick to my stomach... The fatalities are truly awful, but so are the shocking falls that don't result in death.
Out of 40 horses, only 15 finished... That's not sport with those kind of odds.
It's had it's day and I think enough is enough

 

[Dab]

It's a thought but I expect they'd say it would be too close to Cheltenham?

Also I'm not sure what it's been like round Aintree but our fields have been dry till the last week! Was extremely glad of the rain when I finally got to go for a gallop friday

Good point re:Chelterham.

And yes we've only had rain recently, but don't know how that statistically pans out.

 

[jenki13]

I've found the times up until 2008 can't seem to find any later...

http://www.systemlays.co.uk/grand-national-winners-trainers-jockeys-weights-times-and-more/413/

1995 - 2008 race time was around the 9-10min mark except for 2001 where it hit 11 minutes..

wonder what last years/todays was?

 

[Faithkat]

Would that there were more owners like the Dutchess of Westminster who refused to run Arkle in the National, and kept him for many years in retirement.

It is true that the Duchess of Westminster would never let Arkle run in the National but you fail to mention that his retirement at the age of 9 was because he broke a bone in his foot during the Boxing Day 1966 running of the King George VI Chase. He was put down at the end of May 1970 aged 13 because of continual pain from arthritis in both hind feet (and I am quoting the newspaper report of June 1st 1970).

I have been following the National for getting on for 60 years and believe me, the race is much kinder and safer than it was years ago. At one time there was no limit on the number of runners - before my time but in 1929 there were 66 runners (ggod grief!) The fences have also been made "kinder" - they were higher and more solid years ago but now the top layers are of loose brush and vegetation while the best introduction of all has been the "run out" areas (which enabled today's race to be waved past the 21st fence). Until very recently the fences were the entire width of the course which is why there were so many pile-ups caused by loose horses refusing and having nowhere to go - 1967 and the "Foinavon" fence immediately springs to mind and the pile-up at the Canal Turn not so many years ago. I am not particularly a jump racing fan, I much prefer the Flat, but rightly or wrongly, a number of horses are killed racing all the time but it is only the high profile races that hit the headlines. However, I did think the point made by one of the commentators today that not many horses stayed the trip hit the nail on the head and really calls into question the physical fitness of the horses to run a four-and-a-half mile race and that I believe is more likely to be the reason for so many falls. Personally, I would like to see the National only being contested by horses that have qualified by winning or being highly placed in other long steeplechases.

 

[Ladydragon]

I do try to buy ethically, but then convenience takes over again. That's awful isn't it?
<snip>
It is one of my bug bears on the forum that people use overly emotive language about these things. I personally have more than one level of disgust. I am saddened by the deaths today, I still enjoyed the race. I can't understand how people can use the same language about a couple of dead horses as they would about a murder or rape or child abuse or the situation in Syria etc, etc. I suppose I am just not a great fan of hyperbole and threads like this always seem to contain it in spades and it just sets me off. Like a crotchety old woman

Nah...I'm still trying to pack in the ciggies... The 'correct' behaviour doesn't always follow great intent... And in all fairness, at least you're acknowledging a potential for a double standard... I see no problem with meat eating (good husbandry etc) which indicates a perception of superiority in favour of the human but I do have a big problem with animals dying in the name of human entertainment... Arguably a double standard even with my insistence on only eating ethically sourced meat...

And I do tend to agree... Some of the almost 'deification' of horses is a bit of an eye opener...

 

[Dobiegirl]

Todays time as per Racing Post was 9.5.10s which was fast by 4.90s but a fence was omitted because of a fallen jockey and I believe a fence was omitted last year because of a stricken horse.

 

[jenki13]

Todays time as per Racing Post was 9.5.10s which was fast by 4.90s but a fence was omitted because of a fallen jockey and I believe a fence was omitted last year because of a stricken horse.

So not faster than previous years with less fatalities... Not sure how the total fallers compared to other years

 

[Dab]

Todays time as per Racing Post was 9.5.10s which was fast by 4.90s but a fence was omitted because of a fallen jockey and I believe a fence was omitted last year because of a stricken horse.

I've found the times up until 2008 can't seem to find any later...

http://www.systemlays.co.uk/grand-national-winners-trainers-jockeys-weights-times-and-more/413/

1995 - 2008 race time was around the 9-10min mark except for 2001 where it hit 11 minutes..

wonder what last years/todays was?

Rough Quest 1996 9m on Good - 1 fatality after the race

Party Politics 1992 9m 6 on good to soft - no fatalities (?)

Mr Frisk 1990 8m 47 s on Firm - no fatalities

Red Rum 1973 9m 1 s on Firm - 1 fatality after the race


Think last two years have run around 9m 6 mark on good to firm. So is it the speed that is the issue?

 

[Dobiegirl]

I believe the fastest time was by Mr Frisk 8m 47.8 other times were dependent on ground conditions.

 

[Truly]

http://www.aintree.co.uk/pages/grand-national-winners/

Shows you times and going.

Very surprised the times aren't much quicker...it looks to have got faster on averagre by about 20 seconds but I would have expected more.

 

[Faithkat]

Interesting interview with Ruby Walsh who has been in a few Nationals, he thinks speed is the problem . . . . .
http://blog.paddypower.com/2012/04/12/ruby-walsh-the-grand-national-a-view-from-the-saddle/

 

[Dab]

http://www.aintree.co.uk/pages/grand-national-winners/

Shows you times and going.

Very surprised the times aren't much quicker...it looks to have got faster on averagre by about 20 seconds but I would have expected more.

Thanks for the link.

Has it got that much quicker, looking back 15 years ago, same times, same going. If you go back much further then yes, but would you expect to see some improvement due to breeding and feeds etc?

1997 Lord Gyllene 09-10-00 Tony Dobbin Steve Brookshaw Stan Clarke 14/1 9m 5.8s Good 36
1996 Rough Quest 10-10-07 Mick Fitzgerald Terry Casey Andrew Wates 7/1 F 9m 0.8s Good 27
1995 Royal Athlete 12-10-06 Jason Titley Jenny Pitman Gary & Libby Johnson 40/1 9m 4.0s Good 35

 

[jenki13]

Rough Quest 1996 9m on Good

Party Politics 1992 9m 6 on good to soft

Mr Frisk 1990 8m 47 s on Firm

Red Rum 1973 9m 1 s on Firm

Think last two years have run around 9m 6 mark on good to firm. So is it the speed that is the issue?

It would seem not. They seemed to break off to the first couple of fences this year, but then again can't really tell without timings my memory could well be faulty!

Maybe they take the actual fences faster? As in the horses don't "look" or "respect" the fences as much.

Or maybe it is the in-breeding & increased breeding of flat racers with NH racers making them more "spindly"

I don't really know but one thing I can say is I've learnt more about the GN (& NH racing) this evening than ever before!

this is interesting reading: http://www.grandnational.org.uk/trends.php

Although a few trends got bucked with Neptune Collognes winning

 

[SeasonalSituation]

Yes. Carnage. Yes. Lots of falls. Yes. Sadly two deaths.

But I do not think the Grand National should be banned, on the pure and simple fact that the trainers who send their horses out there every year, know a lot more about it then I do. Those horses are treat like royalty (on the most part), and the jockeys do make the right choices (pulling up etc). But we get the same every year with people calling for it to be banned and it'll likley continue every year with those thoughts.

But yes a sad day and I can not imagine how it must feel driving home with an empty horsebox.

 

[jenki13]

http://www.aintree.co.uk/pages/grand-national-winners/

Shows you times and going.

Very surprised the times aren't much quicker...it looks to have got faster on averagre by about 20 seconds but I would have expected more.

Thanks! Don't know how I didn't find this was searching for times for ages!

 

[Maesfen]

I did hear on the radio that since the safety measures were introduced over the last few years deaths have gone up not down.

So I wondered if a few factors were coming together.

Smaller fences so horses going faster.
Drier springs which mean the ground is harder and faster, horses more likely to fall at speed and more likely to do serious damage if they do. More horses get tired and pulled up in the mud.
Have the horses changed? Less old fashioned chaser types who can jump but are slower partly due to the smaller fences.

Not sure, but if the number of deaths have increased then whatever changes are being made are the wrong changes.

I've read through most of the pages and the posts that stand out for me saying what I think are few and far between but well worth thanking them for saying what I would have liked to, you just saved me the effort and trouble so thanks to Jessstickle, Dab, and Merry Crisis plus the above quote from Criso too; sums it up neatly.

 

[Truly]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equine_fatalities_in_the_Grand_National
Seems the nineties had the most fatalities but can't find the most fallers

 

[Equilibrium Ireland]

It's early here so I'd thought I'd write a few thoughts.

I spent most of my adult life in racing, mostly in my native America. I galloped some of the best horses of the day. I can say without a doubt that at least if something was wrong, no matter what, a horse was seen to straight away. They slept in beds befitting of their status as racehorses. In short they wanted for nothing. You're talking to someone that long ago soured on racing. A rider that one time took on the mighty NY racing asso because one of the horses she road broke down in the same spot as another horse. The track was bad all weekend. I wanted answers. And after I got my answers I shadowed the track matienence people and learned all I could about how just to keep a track. So not your average rider and I created a bit of stink to say the least.

At any rate after moving to Ireland I bred my own horses. Owned my own and had a horse business. Horses came and went. I learned much more about horses just from having them. I also got to see ignorance in all forms which caused unnecessary suffering to all sorts of horses. Also having been a groom I can sort many problems myself as well as spot things a mile off. I can feel things the average horse owner can not. That's thanks to racing. I've been in jumper barns, eventer barns ect in which the level of care is nothing compared to what even my own get. Obviously not all or even the majority, but still horses are not being looked after correctly and they wonder why they aren't performing. But hey as long as they aren't in cruel racing that's good enough.

I was upset about the GN too. I do try and keep things in perspective though. Do changes need to be made? Sure I think the numbers should be reduced. I think breeding is also a factor. But commercially nobody wants a big slow jumper so that won't change. We applaud an 18yo going around a super tough event course. We applaud because nothing happened to him. We say look how awesome these old horses are. Yet if he was fatally injured everyone would be up in arms. We all love to think we have all the answers. I know I don't so I try to think of things in context.

We all love to level greed and associate greed with money only. You see it in more forms than just money. Most of us have horses that perform for us in some way. Maybe we should just let them live natural. Oh wait a second horses die out in fields every single day. Some because a vet is too expensive or because people haven't got a clue.

At any rate I'm sorry about the 2 horses that died. I really do hate to see any horse perish but it happens everyday to many horses beyond racehorse. Doesn't make it right or wrong and I'm not trying to lessen the blow.

Terri

 

[guido16]

Terri
And on your superb post, this thread should end.
Sadly, I doubt it will.

 

[ribbons]

Absolutely agree equilibrium Ireland. The suffering caused to horses generally by owners with little or no knowledge who claim to love them so much smacks me in the face everyday. Do they want experienced advice, no. Do they take veterinary warnings seriously, no. Do they think themselves cruel, absolutely no. Do they think GN cruel, absolutely yes.

I am talking about people I witness every day, and am astounded at the things I see them doing, and then listening to their 'expert' opinion on racing.
I despair.

 

[rockysmum]

Absolutely agree equilibrium Ireland. The suffering caused to horses generally by owners with little or no knowledge who claim to love them so much smacks me in the face everyday. Do they want experienced advice, no. Do they take veterinary warnings seriously, no. Do they think themselves cruel, absolutely no. Do they think GN cruel, absolutely yes.

I am talking about people I witness every day, and am astounded at the things I see them doing, and then listening to their 'expert' opinion on racing.
I despair.

I agree, however these events are not on TV for the whole world to enjoy.

I am not anti racing, I enjoy the odd day at the races, along with a lot of other people.

However I dont like the GN. The chances of horses being killed or permanently lamed are far high than other races (in this country)

Take this year, anyone entering had a 5% chance of their horse dying in the race. Another 5% chance of serious injury (2 being treated) Thats basically a 10% chance of loosing your horse one way or the other. Perhaps more if you looked at how many will never race again.

Would any of us enter any competition with those kind of odds. I dont think so.

In most races deaths are tragic accidents, in this one there is a certain inevitability about it.

Doesn't seem right to me.

Oh and while everyone is talking about improving safety. Have all the improvements been done to improve safety for the horse or the jockey. Not that I am against rider safety, but perhaps the different fences mean horses fall differently. Just a thought.

 

[TheDogHouse]

I put a bet on this year for the first time in years! I now feel very sad that I have contributed to the race where two horses died. I wont be watching the National again!

I dont understand why when a horse has unseated the jockey all the others have to wait that length of time, surely as in any other sport if a time is set for the event to start it should do. It caused the tension to build for the others adding to the time it took for them to re-do the tape, causing more tension and then the amount of runners! Why do they allow so many!

Sorry to rant but as someone pointed out the two horses that died were heavily featured in the build up and it puts it into perspective that two owners are travelling home with empty lorries!!!

This is only my opinion but as a horse lover and owner, yesterdays spectacle made me feel very sad.

 

[Marydoll]

Ive never worked in racing, and dont profess to be any sort of expert, i also think theres not a more fantastic sight that a field of racehorses at full tilt with their colourful jockeys on board, but i have 2 eyes that work and and in my humble opinion there are to many horses on the field in the grand national,a blind man running for a bus can see that.

 

[_MizElz_]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equine_fatalities_in_the_Grand_National
Seems the nineties had the most fatalities but can't find the most fallers

What stands out most to me, having read this, is that a significant proportion of fatalities seem to be related to horses running loose after falling. I don't know how they can stop this, but perhaps the prevention of loose horses running on is what they now need to focus on, rather than making fences smaller.

It angers me that the public get so uptight about deaths in the National, yet they completely overlook the deaths that are occurring on a practically daily basis at all other racecourses. In the two days leading up to the National, there were deaths at Sedgefield, and at Fairyhouse....but nobody mentions them. Those who are calling for the National to be banned (and I'm not one of them) need to look at the bigger picture - if their problem is with horses being killed in racing, then it's not just the Grand National they should be targeting, but racing in general. And not just jump racing, either.

For my part, I was devastated yesterday. My elation at Neptune's win (have followed him and supported him for many years) was completely destroyed upon hearing of the demise of those two brave little horses. Like many others who have responded on this thread, I think that the changes they are currently making are pointless - they need to look at HOW these injuries and fatalities are occurring. Synchronised did not die at Bechers, so the fence cannot be blamed for the loss of his life; According To Pete was a victim of circumstance, and the manner of his fall could have occurred at any fence. The problem, as I see it, lies with the loose horses. But how to stop this? I just don't know.

 

[Black_Horse_White]

I'd just like to say I don't watch it and I don't have a bet on it either, maybe the people who feel so strongly about this do the same next year. I'm glad no jockeys were hurt, RIP to the two that lost their lives.

 

[amage]

When you take into account that now fences can be bypassed then yes this year and last year have got faster plus the fences are smaller. If the fences were bigger you wouldn't have as many "taking their chance". Bring the field back to 30 runners and leave the fences a bit meatier and you may get an improvement. I often find it interesting that no one ever gets het up about any horses injured in the foxhunters over the national course with amateurs up?!

 

[Honeylight]

I have been looking at the stats & found some interesting ones.
In the post war era the most fatalities were in 1954 when 4 horses lost their lives, questions were asked in the house & there was a big enquiry; how many runners? 29 one of the smallest fields ever.

Statistically more horses have been killed since the 1990s when the course was altered. This also might be to do with the different type of horse running in the race. Did anyone see Rough Quest in the parade, he looks like a hunter & has much more bone than say Synchronised who was by flat sire Sadlers Wells.

I have a couple of books on the Grand National I have had since I was in my early teens. Looking at the pictures two things strike me; the weather. People are in thick overcoats & it is raining wet in many & the horses are newly clipped out, no quarter marks or shiny coats. This suggests to me either a real change in the seasons or the race has become a lot later in the calendar.
The Aintree course is very free draining & dries out quickly, it is very flat & very fast. Maybe those fences were big for a purpose to slow horses down.

Another thing is that prior to the 1960s all the jump races were over the National Course & then there was a smaller version known as the Mildmay Course which was designed to prepare horses for the race, the Mildmay course resulted in a lot of falls & was removed in the late 1970s. Horses rarely get a foretaste of the National type fences now, there also used to be some good solid drop fences at Haydock & trainers often ran a horse here to see if it could cope with a drop. The course still holds the main trials for the race but over the softest & silliest jumps on any course; quite a number of experts were sorry to see this course altered & I think it was to put down all weather that never happened rather than a safety issue.
You can't just have one course so, so different & expect it all to be ok. We need drops on other courses, more trials, more use of the Grand National Course or nothing at all. I think there are only 5 races over the fences a year, perhaps there should be more.

However there is no big link between deaths, these things happen & the two horses were killed in accidents that could have happened on any course really.