mle22
Well-Known Member
So one animal is worth more than another? Just wondering ...
Grand National 2012- Carnage! What did everyone think?
- Thread starter ASBO Bob
- Start date
So one animal is worth more than another? Just wondering ...
rockysmum
Well-Known Member
RIP the horses and condolences to the grooms and anyone who really cared about these two animals. By cared I mean about their welfare rather than what they are worth or could have won.
Just found this on my Facebook, interesting reading
http://www.horsedeathwatch.com/table.php
Just found this on my Facebook, interesting reading
http://www.horsedeathwatch.com/table.php
meesha
Well-Known Member
dont watch any horse racing and certainly not Grand National, as I am not a fan of racing since I worked at Chelt. Gold cup (in the boxes) and heard about the number of injuries & Horses pts.
Happy to sign anything to make it safer - watching animals die as entertainment is usually frowned upon to say the least so why can they get away with it when its termed "racing"
Happy to sign anything to make it safer - watching animals die as entertainment is usually frowned upon to say the least so why can they get away with it when its termed "racing"
lannerch
Well-Known Member
Synchronised should not have run so soon after Cheltenham big bucks who ran also at Cheltenham over smaller fences and a shorter distance cannot be compared to the two marathon runs synchronised was asked to do in little over a month!
I had a sick feeling when they announced he was running in the national it reminds me of when oliver townend got ( correctly ) a fleecing for running was it questy at burghly and i think kentuckey in a similar time scale. Questy was obviously tired and flattened all the show jumps however synchronised paid with his life!
I had a sick feeling when they announced he was running in the national it reminds me of when oliver townend got ( correctly ) a fleecing for running was it questy at burghly and i think kentuckey in a similar time scale. Questy was obviously tired and flattened all the show jumps however synchronised paid with his life!
diluteherd
Well-Known Member
Sorry MC!! Wasn't calling you an old git!! Lol someone was blaming the GH being dangerous due to old gits stuck in their ways :/
I'm sure you are a spring chicken with a very wise head on you
I'm sure you are a spring chicken with a very wise head on you
Jesstickle
Well-Known Member
Jesstickle, I used to enjoy reading your posts, but I think after reading your first post on here I have lost my respect for you
O well, I don't post to be liked and you can't win them all.
I've explained where the statement came from in some depth in further posts, if you can not understand why I don't think horses are any less replaceable than farm animals which I'll happily eat I can't make you.
You won't shame me into changing my mind I'm afraid.
Dab
Well-Known Member
Do people watch the National to see horses die? or do they watch the national because they enjoy watching the horses jump and race?
If you own a horse you are abusing it everyday for the purposes of your own entertainment. Why are you more deserving of sourcing your entertainment from a horse than those who enjoy racing?
Jesstickle
Well-Known Member
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Jess did you see this post, I can't find your answer? I'm not looking for a fight, I'm seriously interested in what you think of the numbers when they are extrapolated to eventing or hunting.
I also take your point about cows and horses, but I don't expect the cow that I am eating to have run about on a broken leg, or to have suffered extremely painful joint or tendon injuries for which they be shot after they get back home, which will quite possibly also happen to some of today's runners. So I'm not sure the posters on this forum are quite as hypocritical as you believe.
Last edited:
jenki13
Well-Known Member
After reading all the replies here and watching the race (was at work whilst it was on!) & re-watching clips/replays. This is my opinion:
The deaths of Synchronised and According to Pete were sad, but they were accidents that could of occurred in any race not just the GN. According to Pete was brought down by another horse falling in front - in a 5 horse race he still wouldn't have been able to do anything else.
State of play brought down Rare Bob in turn bringing down Chicago Grey who were OK, showing that in some cases it really is Sod's Law.
Synchronised continued running and stumbled at another fence whilst loose causing injury - again could have happened at "any time", maybe if he had gone back to training the next hurdle he went over it would have happened. Obviously we'll never know.
From BBC:
15/40 horses finished
7 riders were "unseated" - not fallers.
4 horses were pulled up
1 horse refused
11 horses fell
2 horses were brought down
However it lists According to Pete as a Faller - I would say he was brought down.
So why did those 10 horses Fall? Would it be safer if there were less runners so that it really was the "cream" running & stricter qualifications where horses would have to race over a certain distance a minimum number of times would mean it would be more of a stamina less a speed race (correct me if I'm wrong I don't really know about the qualification procedure )
The canal turn seems to cause quite a few problems (1 faller, 4 unseated) with all the horses crowding the inside- loose horses can be a real danger when they continue running especially when the swerve across fences. Could the turn be made my "sweeping" to reduce crowding?
I honestly think that cutting the field even to 30 and making it less about speed by putting fences up would help.
The deaths of Synchronised and According to Pete were sad, but they were accidents that could of occurred in any race not just the GN. According to Pete was brought down by another horse falling in front - in a 5 horse race he still wouldn't have been able to do anything else.
State of play brought down Rare Bob in turn bringing down Chicago Grey who were OK, showing that in some cases it really is Sod's Law.
Synchronised continued running and stumbled at another fence whilst loose causing injury - again could have happened at "any time", maybe if he had gone back to training the next hurdle he went over it would have happened. Obviously we'll never know.
From BBC:
15/40 horses finished
7 riders were "unseated" - not fallers.
4 horses were pulled up
1 horse refused
11 horses fell
2 horses were brought down
However it lists According to Pete as a Faller - I would say he was brought down.
So why did those 10 horses Fall? Would it be safer if there were less runners so that it really was the "cream" running & stricter qualifications where horses would have to race over a certain distance a minimum number of times would mean it would be more of a stamina less a speed race (correct me if I'm wrong I don't really know about the qualification procedure
)The canal turn seems to cause quite a few problems (1 faller, 4 unseated) with all the horses crowding the inside- loose horses can be a real danger when they continue running especially when the swerve across fences. Could the turn be made my "sweeping" to reduce crowding?
I honestly think that cutting the field even to 30 and making it less about speed by putting fences up would help.
Fii
Well-Known Member
Well said P!! Totally agree!!
Jackson
Well-Known Member
I wasn't trying to.
I wonder if more 'pet' horses die from bad management from their owners (i.e laminitis..) or just accidents when ridden or running round in the field, than the ammount lost in actual races?
Realistically, how many ridden horses go through their lives not experiencing some sort of suffering or injury inflicted on them by how we manage horses?...
Ladydragon
Well-Known Member
A footballer collapsed and died today during a match, I'm sure there will damn sight less posts on here and FB as there will be about the loss of the two horses in the National.
It might be a good guess that individuals/forums etc who follow football (I don't) will discuss the situation in which the person died and make any tributes as they see fit... A bit of a straw man argument on a horse forum which is more likely to discuss horse deaths/welfare/activities...
Two years ago I stopped watching and will never watch it again. I have no desire to witness horses dying, live, in real time before my eyes. I don't know what the answer is. It's an institution. People's livelihoods are dependent on it...but I have to say that I think it is morally wrong.
I watched it in the 80s when a horse landed head first over Beechers... Again a bit later and two died... Never been able to stomach it since...
You have to be kidding me... The death of someone's child would be the same as the death of their horse?! I can assure you it absolutely is not...
Of course I have friends, what sort of friend wouldn't pay for their friends to go on bi-annual holidays to the Caribbean (all costs included) and weekly outings to Mahiki?
*snigger*
Maybe I'm just a bit of a softie although not a dyed in the wool bunny hugger... And I think I understood what you meant by "it's just a horse"... Since I started buying my own food, 'how it lived' has been important... I'll enjoy a steak with the best meat eaters around but I'll go without unless it's sourced from ethical farming and I can afford it... I'm fine with animal slaughter for food so long as the life and death are humane... The likelihood of one or more horses dying each year because of the GN appears to be greater than them all surviving which isn't something that I can agree with when it gets prettied up as sport or fun or for a flutter... For me, it's not exactly a million miles away from dog fighting...
Jesstickle
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I meant to go back to find it. In answer to your question, I honestly don't know. I can imagine happily putting a horse into training (if I had one that wasn't a total crock obviously
) and I could afford it. And if it turned out to be any good, yeah, I probably would let it run in the National. I can't say that as an absolute but probably I would.And no, I wouldn't hunt if 2 out of every 40 horses died on any given weekend, but more because dead horses don't usually have a jockey still attached and I am too much of a wimp as a rider to want to contend with those risks myself. I am just not good enough to ride something like the National.
And as for the cow, it will just have been rammed onto a lorry with a load of other stressed out cattle and driven to the abbatoir. Not really much nicer than going to the races when you think of it from the cow's perspective. They aren't used to travelling in the way horses are and they certainly aren't used to walking in to the slaughter house etc. And don't even get me started on the conditions 'free range' chickens live in!
Dab
Well-Known Member
After reading all the replies here and watching the race (was at work whilst it was on!) & re-watching clips/replays. This is my opinion:
The deaths of Synchronised and According to Pete were sad, but they were accidents that could of occurred in any race not just the GN. According to Pete was brought down by another horse falling in front - in a 5 horse race he still wouldn't have been able to do anything else.
State of play brought down Rare Bob in turn bringing down Chicago Grey who were OK, showing that in some cases it really is Sod's Law.
Synchronised continued running and stumbled at another fence whilst loose causing injury - again could have happened at "any time", maybe if he had gone back to training the next hurdle he went over it would have happened. Obviously we'll never know.
From BBC:
15/40 horses finished
7 riders were "unseated" - not fallers.
4 horses were pulled up
1 horse refused
11 horses fell
2 horses were brought down
However it lists According to Pete as a Faller - I would say he was brought down.
So why did those 10 horses Fall? Would it be safer if there were less runners so that it really was the "cream" running & stricter qualifications where horses would have to race over a certain distance a minimum number of times would mean it would be more of a stamina less a speed race (correct me if I'm wrong I don't really know about the qualification procedure
The canal turn seems to cause quite a few problems (1 faller, 4 unseated) with all the horses crowding the inside- loose horses can be a real danger when they continue running especially when the swerve across fences. Could the turn be made my "sweeping" to reduce crowding?
I honestly think that cutting the field even to 30 and making it less about speed by putting fences up would help.
Good post.
With regard to the structure of qualification, i believe (and very am happy to be corrected) that it all comes down to the horses rating. However the horse can get that rating say 11 months prior to the GN and then it is not run again - so its rating never changes and it can still run in the national...but it could have had a serious loss of form in that time, or not be fit etc. Take these horses out of the field of runners.
Theres a reason why the National has a fair few rank outsiders, and these horses should probably not be running and crowding the field.
Last edited:
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Because those who enjoy jump racing enjoy watching a spectacle that carries the certainty of a high proportion of premature horse deaths. There is no other horse sport that carries the certainty of deaths in those numbers. If there was, that horse sport would be stopped. Racing is not a horse sport, it is a huge business which is run for betting, with horses as a resource, not the primary motivation of more than a tiny, tiny proportion of those who follow it. That business can still run without horse deaths in those numbers, and therefore, in my opinion, it should.
Flame_
Well-Known Member
That's fine to feel that way about your own animals, I feel that way about mine, but do you really think that horses as a species should all be valued that highly by all humans? Race horses are largely bred for what they can physically do for people and they would be a bit pointless if they weren't given the opportunities to do it. These horses are worth thousands, nobody wants them to die, but horses have to have a purpose unless they are particularly lucky and loved as someone's pet, and for many horses their purpose is to run the Grand National, and its not a bad gig for all the horses who didn't die and will be heading off on their summer hols right about now.
fburton
Well-Known Member
Appreciate your willingness to answer cptrayes questions - which I think are actually rather good ones.Sorry, I meant to go back to find it. In answer to your question, I honestly don't know. I can imagine happily putting a horse into training (if I had one that wasn't a total crock obviously
So what do you think about going to cross country events if they had the same fatality stats, and whether they should still be run?
Jesstickle
Well-Known Member
I do try to buy ethically, but then convenience takes over again. That's awful isn't it?
One day I'll have a little small holding with my own cows and sheep and pigs and they'll all live happily until I decide I want to eat them. Will have to win the lottery first of course. And curb my enthusiasm for junk food as I'm pretty sure Dominoe's don't care where their meat comes from!
I'm really not arguing that we shouldn't try and make the National safer, just that I find the level of outcry disproportionate when viewed along side other issues. Which doesn't mean we shouldn't try and make this safer, but perhaps we could all do a little bit more in general for animal welfare. Or at least accept that we might not all have an unblotted copy book.
It is one of my bug bears on the forum that people use overly emotive language about these things. I personally have more than one level of disgust. I am saddened by the deaths today, I still enjoyed the race. I can't understand how people can use the same language about a couple of dead horses as they would about a murder or rape or child abuse or the situation in Syria etc, etc. I suppose I am just not a great fan of hyperbole and threads like this always seem to contain it in spades and it just sets me off. Like a crotchety old woman
Dab
Well-Known Member
So where do you draw the line, in terms of what is acceptable? How many deaths per 1000?
If you stopped the betting would racing be acceptable? or just if you stopped the deaths it would be acceptable?
Last edited:
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the answer. Those jockeys sure are brave, I couldn't do it yet I love a big hedge myself
I take your point with this paragraph but I still feel uncomfortable about it. I can't quite get my head around it, but it's connected with poor treatment of meat animals resulting in a good thing - nutritious food people can afford to buy, and deaths of racehorses underpinning nothing more than the gambling industry, which surely could continue with safer racing?
Personally I only ever buy cow I know the name of, but I do feel guilty every time I buy Tesco chicken.
Last edited:
cptrayes
Well-Known Member
You draw it well below multiple horses in one race. Racing where there is a certainty that a high proportion of horses will die during the race and at home shortly afterwards will never, in my opinion, be acceptable, betting or not. No other sport featuring horses than racing would be allowed to continue with that level of horse deaths. Why do we make an exception of racing?
debbielinder
Well-Known Member
Have read all previous comments and everyone is going to have an opinion and im affraid we are not going to agree. I live in liverpool and have got to say there is such a buzz about the place national weekend. It is very sad about these 2 horses but i feel they will have been given the best veterinary care available within minutes. But to put a positive note on it i just wanted to comment on katy walsh's fantastic ride. She rode beautifuly and gave that horse a fantastic ride and whatever anyone says they were very much a partnership.
jenki13
Well-Known Member
I see, it would be interesting to see whether horses that gain the rating & then don't race for 11 months (I assume this is what's meant by a "national horse" in the papers) and rates of falls compared to those that qualify in the year before.
Is there anywhere that shows the odds just before the race for each horse? In compliance finished 4th at 100-1 but I wondered if the other outsiders where the ones that fell at early fences?
I think if this was the case then it would definitely be something to look into and a strong case for a smaller field.
millikins
Well-Known Member
I've watched the GN for over 40 years and today I was thrilled for Neptune Collonges who's always been overshadowed by his more famous stablemates. But, I do think there was an unacceptable number of falls, IMO probably due to the greater speed allowed by the "improvemnts", I'm sure in past years more pulled up or refused.
Echo Bravo
Well-Known Member
And out come the fluffy ones,it was a good race and a very good horse won it and deserved to win it. Am very sorry for According to Pete's owners and JP Macmanus,but they both knew what could happen to their horses and unfortunately it did.No more to be said.
Dab
Well-Known Member
So well below multiple horses in one race would be one or none? Which would then possibly mean that you would have to look at the top 4* events etc
How was there a certainty that a high proportion (what is that 40%, 70%?) died during or after todays race? Did this happen?
Is there a certainity that a numpty owner will end up causing harm, that could lead to the premature death of their horse? is this acceptable? or horses being PTS becuase they can't pay their way in a riding school, is that acceptable?
el_Snowflakes
Well-Known Member
This ^^^
A footballer collapsed and died today during a match, I'm sure there will damn sight less posts on here and FB as there will be about the loss of the two horses in the National.
possibly because this is the 'horse' and hound website?
TeamChaser
Well-Known Member
Phew! Have read whole thread (yes - I need to get a life!)
My thoughts .... for what they are worth ....
I do think that it's the speed now that is responsible for increasing numbers of fatalities and think this has several contributing factors (which have been mentioned so won't dwell)
- ground too fast
- reduction in height of fences
- faster horses taking part (NH breeding fashion in recent years) Did anyone see Sprinter Sacre?!? WOW
I find the concept of "choice" an interesting one Ask yourself, does your horse choose to live alone, live in a stable, spend hours in a school each week practicing dressage, have a saddle on, have a bit in it's mouth, jump coloured poles, jump x country jumps, travel in a trailer/lorry ..... tick all those that apply .... you get my drift. The fact is we have domesticated horses for our own uses - whatever they may be - they have never had a "choice" in that. They do as we ask due to their wonderful generosity of spirit and hopefully because they also get some enjoyment from these activities (in fact, how do we know that a horse enjoys dressage any more that they do racing?). We in turn have a responsibility to care for them and the racing industry is no more guilty of a lack of care than any other industry or indeed many horses owned for leisure purposes. In fact, as supreme athletes, the care racehorses receive is vital to performance. As other posters have pointed out, we tend to humanise our horse (I'm sure I do the same) but they have no concept of danger or death, for that matter, and act and react mainly on instinct
Which brings me to my final point - that we use herd instinct to "make" horses run and that they wouldn't jump those fences if asked to do so on their own. I team chase one of mine and he loves it! How do I know? The gleeful bucks and the way he absolutely tows me over the practice fence in the warm up and clears it by feet gives me a clue Once on the course, a true pro and gets on with the job in hand but make no mistake, he know's exactly what he's there for on arrival and loves every second of it. Would he go round the course on his own? Almost definitely, but I'm sure he wouldn't find it as much fun! I have fallen off recently (as featured in H&H magazine) and you can bet your a**e he immediately jumped up and followed his buddies! That's not adrenaline or fear, that's a desire to carry on with him mates (most put out when caught and had to stand whilst I was attended to by doc )
Today's events were terribly sad (I actually don't think Synchronised should have run but that's just my opinion) but this shouldn't immediately turn into a welfare/cruelty debate
John Hales was interviewed on RUK in the build up and confirmed that both Neptune Collognes and Noland would be retired today - whatever the outcome of their respective races - and to see this big, burly guy so near to tears when speaking so movingly about his horses had me (and the presenter!) in tears. Please don't assume these animals aren't loved. Well done to Neptune (what a note to go out on!!) and here's to a long and happy retirement
RIP Synchronised and According to Pete xxx
My thoughts .... for what they are worth ....
I do think that it's the speed now that is responsible for increasing numbers of fatalities and think this has several contributing factors (which have been mentioned so won't dwell)
- ground too fast
- reduction in height of fences
- faster horses taking part (NH breeding fashion in recent years) Did anyone see Sprinter Sacre?!? WOW
I find the concept of "choice" an interesting one
Ask yourself, does your horse choose to live alone, live in a stable, spend hours in a school each week practicing dressage, have a saddle on, have a bit in it's mouth, jump coloured poles, jump x country jumps, travel in a trailer/lorry ..... tick all those that apply .... you get my drift. The fact is we have domesticated horses for our own uses - whatever they may be - they have never had a "choice" in that. They do as we ask due to their wonderful generosity of spirit and hopefully because they also get some enjoyment from these activities (in fact, how do we know that a horse enjoys dressage any more that they do racing?). We in turn have a responsibility to care for them and the racing industry is no more guilty of a lack of care than any other industry or indeed many horses owned for leisure purposes. In fact, as supreme athletes, the care racehorses receive is vital to performance. As other posters have pointed out, we tend to humanise our horse (I'm sure I do the same) but they have no concept of danger or death, for that matter, and act and react mainly on instinctWhich brings me to my final point - that we use herd instinct to "make" horses run and that they wouldn't jump those fences if asked to do so on their own. I team chase one of mine and he loves it! How do I know? The gleeful bucks and the way he absolutely tows me over the practice fence in the warm up and clears it by feet gives me a clue
Once on the course, a true pro and gets on with the job in hand but make no mistake, he know's exactly what he's there for on arrival and loves every second of it. Would he go round the course on his own? Almost definitely, but I'm sure he wouldn't find it as much fun! I have fallen off recently (as featured in H&H magazine) and you can bet your a**e he immediately jumped up and followed his buddies! That's not adrenaline or fear, that's a desire to carry on with him mates (most put out when caught and had to stand whilst I was attended to by doc )Today's events were terribly sad (I actually don't think Synchronised should have run but that's just my opinion) but this shouldn't immediately turn into a welfare/cruelty debate
John Hales was interviewed on RUK in the build up and confirmed that both Neptune Collognes and Noland would be retired today - whatever the outcome of their respective races - and to see this big, burly guy so near to tears when speaking so movingly about his horses had me (and the presenter!) in tears. Please don't assume these animals aren't loved. Well done to Neptune (what a note to go out on!!) and here's to a long and happy retirement
RIP Synchronised and According to Pete xxx
Mithras
Well-Known Member
No, you're right, dressage, showjumping, polo, eventing, etc kill horses much more slowly, by inflicting unnatural stresses on their bodies so that they break down equally as often before the get to the competition as at it, but with less advanced vetinary checks and medication available. As for amateur riders, jumping on hard ground, doing too many classes on unfit horses, riding horses that are too small to carry them, bad riding, blaming their horses - how many problems does the average horse in the average livery yard have, despite doing nowhere near the workload of a racehorse?
Have regularly witnessed a whole host of bizarre ailments in horses at livery yards, horrendous injuries from kicking from being turned out on inadequate grazing in large groups, likewise problems due to lack of socialisation or turnout, horses being schooled for 2 hours non stop and shouted at when they put a muscle out of place - ugh.
Never saw anything as bad as I've seen at a livery yard when I worked in horse racing, where higher standards applied and people actually knew what they were doing.
Your arguement falls down because livery yards are businesses, whereas racing as an industry is organised because there is a competitive sport behind it, in which people who like to excel in that competitive sport, compete. You will generally find that elite athletes in any sport compete because they have a desire to do their best in that sport, not for money. These athletes would include trainers, jockeys, breeders and owners. The rest of the industry is the support structure which has developed around permitting the sport to operate on the scale that it does. It is no longer solely the sport of kings.