Grand National 2012- Carnage! What did everyone think?

[Copperpot]

Team Chaser that is a very well put post and one I agree with.

 

[Fii]

That's fine to feel that way about your own animals, I feel that way about mine, but do you really think that horses as a species should all be valued that highly by all humans? Race horses are largely bred for what they can physically do for people and they would be a bit pointless if they weren't given the opportunities to do it. These horses are worth thousands, nobody wants them to die, but horses have to have a purpose unless they are particularly lucky and loved as someone's pet, and for many horses their purpose is to run the Grand National, and its not a bad gig for all the horses who didn't die and will be heading off on their summer hols right about now.

Wouldnt it be lovely if they were all valued that way though!
Dont get me wrong, i am NOT against racing at all, but this years GN was a complete ballsup no matter which way you look at it!!

I do try to buy ethically, but then convenience takes over again. That's awful isn't it?

One day I'll have a little small holding with my own cows and sheep and pigs and they'll all live happily until I decide I want to eat them. Will have to win the lottery first of course. And curb my enthusiasm for junk food as I'm pretty sure Dominoe's don't care where their meat comes from!

I'm really not arguing that we shouldn't try and make the National safer, just that I find the level of outcry disproportionate when viewed along side other issues. Which doesn't mean we shouldn't try and make this safer, but perhaps we could all do a little bit more in general for animal welfare. Or at least accept that we might not all have an unblotted copy book.

It is one of my bug bears on the forum that people use overly emotive language about these things. I personally have more than one level of disgust. I am saddened by the deaths today, I still enjoyed the race. I can't understand how people can use the same language about a couple of dead horses as they would about a murder or rape or child abuse or the situation in Syria etc, etc. I suppose I am just not a great fan of hyperbole and threads like this always seem to contain it in spades and it just sets me off. Like a crotchety old woman

I think you have to take each issue on its own merit, So argue about the GN and why you disagree/agree with it, without bringing in farming issues, rape or child abuse into it, they have nothing to do with what we are talking about!
I can get just as wound up about animal abuse as i can child abuse, but the two dont come up in the same conversation, so arent comparable as an argument!

 

[Flame_]

Is there anywhere that shows the odds just before the race for each horse? In compliance finished 4th at 100-1 but I wondered if the other outsiders where the ones that fell at early fences?
I think if this was the case then it would definitely be something to look into and a strong case for a smaller field.

I always back a "no hoper" so I tend to remember the horses with 100-1 odds plus. I had Neptune Equester(sp) at 150-1... It finished 13th. The horses who finished 7th and 8th were 100-1 shots IIRC. Looking at a list of the early fallers, most of them had set off with a decent chance IMO.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/horse-racing/grand-national-full-results-the-winner-795334

Maybe the Grand National just is what it is and we should face the danger and stop complaining? I don't know. It gives us something to discuss anyway.

 

[criso]

. But, I do think there was an unacceptable number of falls, IMO probably due to the greater speed allowed by the "improvemnts", I'm sure in past years more pulled up or refused.

I did hear on the radio that since the safety measures were introduced over the last few years deaths have gone up not down.

So I wondered if a few factors were coming together.

Smaller fences so horses going faster.
Drier springs which mean the ground is harder and faster, horses more likely to fall at speed and more likely to do serious damage if they do. More horses get tired and pulled up in the mud.
Have the horses changed? Less old fashioned chaser types who can jump but are slower partly due to the smaller fences.

Not sure, but if the number of deaths have increased then whatever changes are being made are the wrong changes.

 

[TeamChaser]

Team Chaser that is a very well put post and one I agree with.

Why thank you Copperpot!

Such an emotive one this one, and always gets the blood up.

My sister rang me after the race and I was sobbing at the loss of 2 such wonderful horses who have been fabulous for their connections, but without racing, there would be no need for these animals which would be a huge loss I think. I have an ex racehorse so maybe I'm biased, but they really are the most magnificent animals, in so many ways

We do need to see a return of the "National" type of horse for this race (like Ballabriggs actually) rather than these little speed demons! I didn't think Synchronised was a National type but really sad to have been proved right on this occasion

 

[jenki13]

I always back a "no hoper" so I tend to remember the horses with 100-1 odds plus. I had Neptune Equester(sp) at 150-1... It finished 13th. The horses who finished 7th and 8th were 100-1 shots IIRC. Looking at a list of the early fallers, most of them had set off with a decent chance IMO.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/horse-racing/grand-national-full-results-the-winner-795334

Maybe the Grand National just is what it is and we should face the danger and stop complaining? I don't know. It gives us something to discuss anyway.

Blows that theory out the water!
Definitely gives for a good discussion.. shame that it's about the bad rather than the good though.

The positives: Neptune Colognes had a brilliant run & finish was exciting!
Also Katie Walsh had a fantastic ride to finish as the highest placing woman ever

 

[Dab]

I did hear on the radio that since the safety measures were introduced over the last few years deaths have gone up not down.

So I wondered if a few factors were coming together.

Smaller fences so horses going faster.
Drier springs which mean the ground is harder and faster, horses more likely to fall at speed and more likely to do serious damage if they do. More horses get tired and pulled up in the mud.
Have the horses changed? Less old fashioned chaser types who can jump but are slower partly due to the smaller fences.

Not sure, but if the number of deaths have increased then whatever changes are being made are the wrong changes.

Very interesting. Problem is there is a knee jerk reaction and changes are made to the course without the full consequences having been considered. Yet they are slow to introduce welfare measures such as the more advanced cool down facilities, shorter or no parade in hot weather.

Maybe they need to move the race to earlier in the year?

 

[Jesstickle]

I think you have to take each issue on its own merit, So argue about the GN and why you disagree/agree with it, without bringing in farming issues, rape or child abuse into it, they have nothing to do with what we are talking about!
I can get just as wound up about animal abuse as i can child abuse, but the two dont come up in the same conversation, so arent comparable as an argument!

I didn't bring rape etc in as part of my argument, was more general chit chat about the forum annoying me.

And I think farming issues are directly pertinent to why I personally don't have a problem with the National. And that is what I said. I personally couldn't criticise the National, and I personally think a horse is just a horse, because of my far wider own beliefs and habits.

I'm sorry. I don't categorise things like that, I don't think I should be basing my opinions soley on what has happened in the last half an hour or what I've seen on the telly. I base my opinions and my morals on what is happening in the wider world and what has shaped my life. Modern farming directly contributes to why I agree with the National. I'm sorry it annoys you that I don't reason the same way you do.

 

[amandaco2]

Always hated this race and can't watch it....... Any other single event causing deaths each time its ran would be cancelled

 

[belle31]

Can't watch won't watch, never have never will. My ex racer tucked up in bed tonight safe and sound and I thank my lucky stars she is with me and not on the racecourse anymore

 

[Dab]

Blows that theory out the water!

Not necessarily, there is a reason why the elite marathon runners start in a different location to Joe Public. But regardless a smaller field would be prefereable.

 

[Horselover39]

I am appalled and shocked at what I witnessed in today's national. SOMETHING DRASTIC NEEDS TO BE DONE!!!!!!!!!!

I believe less runners and altering the landing side of Becher's MUST BE DONE!!!

What does everyone else think and can we do anything as Horse and Hound readers to prevent this utter carnage happening again???

 

[Beausmate]

Too many runners going too bloody fast. Make it safer? Take out a quarter of the field and make the fences bigger. Apart from altering the landing sides of Becher's and Valentine's, which was a really good thing, the whole attempt to make the National safer seems to be having the opposite effect.

The last few runnings have seen the horses going hell-for-leather in to the first fence, what happened to the horses setting off in a nice controlled fashion ready to take part in an endurance test? They're starting like it's a two mile chase! Jockeys used to kick on at fences, now they're having to take a pull, several of the runners were almost hurdling the fences, they're not coming back on their hocks and jumping.

Well done to the connections of Neptune Collonges on a fantastic win and on giving the horse his well deserved retirement. And well done to Katie Walsh-what an achievement!

 

[Fii]

I didn't bring rape etc in as part of my argument, was more general chit chat about the forum annoying me.

And I think farming issues are directly pertinent to why I personally don't have a problem with the National. And that is what I said. I personally couldn't criticise the National, and I personally think a horse is just a horse, because of my far wider own beliefs and habits.

I'm sorry. I don't categorise things like that, I don't think I should be basing my opinions soley on what has happened in the last half an hour or what I've seen on the telly. I base my opinions and my morals on what is happening in the wider world and what has shaped my life. Modern farming directly contributes to why I agree with the National. I'm sorry it annoys you that I don't reason the same way you do.

LOL, it doesnt annoy me at all, you have every right to the way you see things! I just dont see things the same way, doesnt make ether of us right or wrong!

 

[Dab]

Interesting stat.....

StaminaEvery single winner of the Grand National since Gay Trip in 1970 had previously won over three miles or further over fences. It seems obvious that to win a Grand National a horse should have proven stamina - this is the longest race of the year with a 40-strong field and no contest in which to support a horse with stamina questions to answer. And yet in the seven renewals since 2005, 51 non-winners over 3m+ tried their luck in the National (including an incredible 12 in 2008 - exactly 30% of the contenders).

Perhaps the message is finally getting through to connections as just 5 took their chance in both 2009 and 2010, and last year, however on those occasions they still represented over 12% of the field.....

No place for these horses in this race.

 

[Tamba]

I am appalled and shocked at what I witnessed in today's national. SOMETHING DRASTIC NEEDS TO BE DONE!!!!!!!!!!

I believe less runners and altering the landing side of Becher's MUST BE DONE!!!

What does everyone else think and can we do anything as Horse and Hound readers to prevent this utter carnage happening again???

I totally agree, and feel strongly about it as well, which is why Im writing a letter, I think the more people complain and voice their view against it, the more likely things will change, I heard that some of the celebrities who were present at the race, were disgusted as well, they carry weight, so hopefully they will complain as well. I know I will be.

 

[jenki13]

Not necessarily, there is a reason why the elite marathon runners start in a different location to Joe Public. But regardless a smaller field would be prefereable.

Yeah, I agree a smaller field would be better. I just meant the theory that the rank outsiders were the fallers... Of course if we analysed the race(s) to see if the outsiders hampered the favourites in any way that might prove more conclusive.

I am appalled and shocked at what I witnessed in today's national. SOMETHING DRASTIC NEEDS TO BE DONE!!!!!!!!!!

I believe less runners and altering the landing side of Becher's MUST BE DONE!!!

What does everyone else think and can we do anything as Horse and Hound readers to prevent this utter carnage happening again???

Only 2 horses fell at Bechers brook? Once on the 1st circuit (Synchronised), 1 on the 2nd (On his own) who brought down 1 (According to Pete). 2 horses were pulled up before it on the 2nd circuit.

The canal turn actually caused more problems with 1 horse falling and 4 riders being unseated..

Not entirely sure what we can do.. maybe write to the relevant authorities? Raise points of concern i.e possibility of the field being reduced - this seems a common theme.



I also realised that I spelt Neptune Collonges wrong on my previous post!

 

[criso]

Here's the figures

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equine_fatalities_in_the_Grand_National

 

[Flame_]

FWIW, I'm actually shocked at how many of the rank outsiders completed or pulled up safely late on. The fallers were mostly flipping fast horses.

Maybe that shows the odds are mainly based on speed rather than stamina and jumping ability?

 

[criso]

FWIW, I'm actually shocked at how many of the rank outsiders completed or pulled up safely late on. The fallers were mostly flipping fast horses.

Maybe that shows the odds are mainly based on speed rather than stamina and jumping ability?

Probably - odds will be set on success in other races, races that are shorter and have smaller fences

 

[el_Snowflakes]

Can't watch won't watch, never have never will. My ex racer tucked up in bed tonight safe and sound and I thank my lucky stars she is with me and not on the racecourse anymore

bless her

 

[cambrica]

How on Earth can anybody watch the GN and call it fun and exciting ? Especially those that claim to 'love horses'

Last year I watched it for the last time. Sat down with my family and all I could focus on were the horses several fences back that had taken a bad fall. Then the 2nd time round my son commented on why anybody would put a tent up in the middle of the racetrack. At that point the TV went off !
Animal cruelty happens and it is always upsetting BUT to tune in and watch a race that you know you are likely to see a horse lose its life right there in front of you on live tv - that actually concerns me more about the world we live in.

I am not anti racing but am very anti GN. There is a line that has been crossed as to how much we expect of these superb animals. Next year there will be exactly the same thread as I imagine there was last year.

 

[Horselover39]

Something must be done!!! It was a heatbreaking race to watch!!!

Poor poor Synchornised he shouldn't have been allowed to race after the spook incident. He'd already run half a mile and should not have been included.

AND


Poor, poor, poor "According to Pete" who fell, because another horse had fallen. The poor horse didn't have a chance at Bechers!!!!! I watched that lovely family on the "Build up" to the race. They must be devastated, they didn't deserve that and neither did their amazing horse.

 

[Horselover39]

I totally agree and something needs to drastically change regarding the race. In his day an age watching that. It was barbaric...........

 

[jenki13]

FWIW, I'm actually shocked at how many of the rank outsiders completed or pulled up safely late on. The fallers were mostly flipping fast horses.

Maybe that shows the odds are mainly based on speed rather than stamina and jumping ability?

Yeah possibly as it's become more of a "speed" race, then the fastest horse's become the favourites but it's actually the slower horses that make it round because they actually have more stamina?

Looking at the list of equine fatalities the last 2 years have been worse than previous years? except for 1998 where there were 3 fatalities and in 2002 where there was 2.

 

[YorksG]

Something must be done!!! It was a heatbreaking race to watch!!!

Poor poor Synchornised he shouldn't have been allowed to race after the spook incident. He'd already run half a mile and should not have been included.

AND


Poor, poor, poor "According to Pete" who fell, because another horse had fallen. The poor horse didn't have a chance at Bechers!!!!! I watched that lovely family on the "Build up" to the race. They must be devastated, they didn't deserve that and neither did their amazing horse.

They chose to enter the horse in the race, no one forced them to!
If only those who deserved to die did, of any species, the planet would be overrun!
On a more serious note, the speed of the race does seem to cause most of the problems, and ways of slowing it down may be the safest option, perhaps with watered ground and higher fences. I have to say that I quite understand Jesstickles point of view.

 

[Dab]

They chose to enter the horse in the race, no one forced them to!
If only those who deserved to die did, of any species, the planet would be overrun!
On a more serious note, the speed of the race does seem to cause most of the problems, and ways of slowing it down may be the safest option, perhaps with watered ground and higher fences. I have to say that I quite understand Jesstickles point of view.

True, true and i wonder what the owners of According to Pete would say about stopping the National?

Tricky one that about watering the ground, can cause a lot more problems than it solves, with uneven wet-spots causing legs to break.
What about holding it earlier in the year, cooler and wetter weather? (havent done any research, just a thought)

 

[Laafet]

Not going to get into the rights or wrongs of it all but all horse did have to qualify, all horses were checked by vets before the race, Sychronised was checked by a vet after his run and in the end broke his leg jumping a fence while loose, not much that can be done about that. According to Pete was very unlucky. At the end of the day, I found it a little sad that it took away from the winner who deserved the win after all his years of service and given that his owner had lost his other great grey, One Man, at the course.

 

[Truly]

By making it 'safer' they've made it faster

Also by breeding them to have the speed at the finish they've made the horses faster.

The pedigree of a NH horse nowadays is full of flat racers..there are no old fashioned NH stayers anymore...it's been bred out with Speed to Stamina, Speed to Stamina etc.etc.etc.

I can't think what else they can do to make it safer except cut the field down.

I've only ever enjoyed it when none get hurt...find it hard to justify why I watch it as each fence I look away until my O/H tells me they are all over or have got up.

Totally torn as I love racing, I love TB's, have total respect for the trainers (most of them), Jockeys, Lads and Lasses but could never send one of my own TB's jump racing....I couldn't live with myself if something happened to them

 

[Dobiegirl]

Laafet I agree that these horses deaths sad as they were detracted from the success of the winner.

I think its ironic and Im not trying to be funny here that the more safety measures they put in place the more fatalities seem to be occuring and Im referring to this year and last. Its my opinion that everytime they lower the fences the faster they go and with bigger fences horses give them more respect. Perhaps making the landing side of Bechers less steep would also have an effect.