Big Ben
Well-Known Member
And get a wii fit, that's another great tool
Yup, have one of those, and now the snow is down it will be brought into play again....
Heavy riders, who should speak out and when*spin off*
- Thread starter Big Ben
- Start date
Yup, have one of those, and now the snow is down it will be brought into play again....
FionaM12
Well-Known Member
The OP did not ask anyone's opinion about riding her horse though. She made it clear she has made her mind up, which is her right to do, whether anyone here agrees or not.
The question asked was (given the example of that poor grey arab
) would you say something in real life? Your statement "there is no point, because those who ARE told they are too fat to ride don't listen to anyone whose opinion they are not paying for" is a huge generalization, and there's no way any of us know who would take advice and who wouldn't.
Wagtail
Horse servant
I completely agree. It is a very diffcult thing to have to tell someone they are too heavy for their horse. I have done it twice. Once was for a teenager and she has continued to put on weight and continued to ride the pony. I rode him the other day and words cannot describe how awful he felt.
He is only 10 and feels like a cripple. And another time was when a lady of around the OP's size came to ride my 17.3 ID gelding. I did let her on but quickly asked her to dismount again when I saw the expression on my horse's face. He would have carried her without a doubt, and not complained, but I saw how the saddle sank down into his back and how unbalanced she was. She almost fell off when he went into trot. I told her she was too heavy and unbalanced to ride him, but I put it in as nice a way as I could. Last thing I heard she had bought herself a shire.IME those people who need telling are the least likely to think they are too heavy, and the most likely to ignore you!
Wagtail
Horse servant
The OP did not ask anyone's opinion about riding her horse though. She made it clear she has made her mind up, which is her right to do, whether anyone here agrees or not.
The question asked was (given the example of that poor grey arab
Your statement "there is no point, because those who ARE told they are too fat to ride don't listen to anyone whose opinion they are not paying for" is a huge generalization, and there's no way any of us know who would take advice and who wouldn't.
I disagree with you there. I think the OP put her own examples up for discussion, including herself. She also gave her own views on them as is the norm for a discussion thread.
To be honest, it should be obvious to anyone who is knowledgable about horses that they are too heavy to ride certain horses. I am quite frankly flabberghasted by some of the pictures on the American site. I am also very sad that the OP does not think that the fact that the vast majority of respondents on this thread have said she is too heavy, is of any concern.
Big Ben
Well-Known Member
Your statement "there is no point, because those who ARE told they are too fat to ride don't listen to anyone whose opinion they are not paying for" is a huge generalization, and there's no way any of us know who would take advice and who wouldn't.
I have listened to advice where Willow is concerned, and it would be OH so easy for me to say that I wont ride Ben until I have got down to weight that everyone has agreed is acceptable, but without knowing his weight or mine then we would be playing the guessing from a snapshot game for a long time. There are those who have such a low weight threshold in their mind that I probably would never get there, so I could say flark it all and just stay the size I am.
I do appreciate everyone's thoughts and input, it is always interesting to hear others views.
Wagtail
Horse servant
What does Ben weigh? Around 1300 lb? That would make you 20% of his weight at around 260 lb? That's not an unrealistic target, surely? Of course I am just guessing his ideal weight for a 16 hh big boned animal.
devonlass
Well-Known Member
I find the study someone mentioned earlier in the thread about the % of weight carried and the long term effects very interesting.
It seems to suggest that the 20% rule is a pretty good guide and usually a safe zone.Perhaps as there is so much uncertainty about what is an acceptable weight,sticking to the 20% rule for those in doubt would be a good plan??
Different subject but I am a bit baffled as to how we came around to thinking everyone with a weight problem is an addict or has an eating disorder
That's quite frankly ludicrous,and a cop out.
The majority of people who are overweight are that way because todays lifestyle and food market has made it easy to be that way.As a nation we are lazy,physically and mentally,and often in need of stress release or 'comfort'.
I say this BTW as someone who has done yo-yo dieting and had weight issues all their adult life before anyone say's I don't understand or can't empathise.
I don't have an eating disorder,and am not addicted.I *could* say i was as an excuse for my weakness but that IMO would completely diminish the importance of those conditions the minority that genuinely do suffer with them.
*Most* people who are overweight are that way because of a choice.It may be a hard choice at times to deny yourself,but it is a choice none the less.
I decided a while ago to change my unhealthy attitude towards food,many others have done the same,many more *could* do the same but choose not to,but it *is* still a choice on their part not a compulsion,(even if some days it feels that way).There is nothing to be gained by kidding ourselves that somehow our eating habits and unhealthy lifestyles are 'not our fault'.
It seems to suggest that the 20% rule is a pretty good guide and usually a safe zone.Perhaps as there is so much uncertainty about what is an acceptable weight,sticking to the 20% rule for those in doubt would be a good plan??
Different subject but I am a bit baffled as to how we came around to thinking everyone with a weight problem is an addict or has an eating disorder
That's quite frankly ludicrous,and a cop out.
The majority of people who are overweight are that way because todays lifestyle and food market has made it easy to be that way.As a nation we are lazy,physically and mentally,and often in need of stress release or 'comfort'.
I say this BTW as someone who has done yo-yo dieting and had weight issues all their adult life before anyone say's I don't understand or can't empathise.
I don't have an eating disorder,and am not addicted.I *could* say i was as an excuse for my weakness but that IMO would completely diminish the importance of those conditions the minority that genuinely do suffer with them.
*Most* people who are overweight are that way because of a choice.It may be a hard choice at times to deny yourself,but it is a choice none the less.
I decided a while ago to change my unhealthy attitude towards food,many others have done the same,many more *could* do the same but choose not to,but it *is* still a choice on their part not a compulsion,(even if some days it feels that way).There is nothing to be gained by kidding ourselves that somehow our eating habits and unhealthy lifestyles are 'not our fault'.
Achinghips
Well-Known Member
I always love your posts Devonlass.
FionaM12
Well-Known Member
Different subject but I am a bit baffled as to how we came around to thinking everyone with a weight problem is an addict or has an eating disorder
That's quite frankly ludicrous,and a cop out.
I see where you're coming from and I agree it's not always due to an eating disorder, but my posts were in response to people who were saying "what's the problem, just eat less" when it's obviously not that simple.
If someone gains some weight, then tackles it successfully, they obviously haven't got an eating disorder. Neither has someone who by choice or ignorance lives on pizzas and chips and has no intention of changing that.
However those people who are miserable about their weight, morbidly obese and simply cannot change their habits despite trying very hard and understanding what they should do about it, clearly have an eating disorder. They have complex psychological issues which cause them to comfort eat, or binge, and they are not helped by people making dismissive comments such as some of those on this thread. Not yours, by the way.
Littlelegs
Well-Known Member
The thing is with the 20% rule is its 20% of the horses weight when its in peak conditions & a healthy adult. Not when the horse is overweight, unfit, just broken, old etc. And it is that, the maximum, not a case of I'm only 25% of my unfit horses weight so that will be ok for 10 minutes.
Flame_
Well-Known Member
Horses break down all the time. Because they were backed too soon, because they do too much schooling, because they don't do enough schooling and learn to use themselves properly, because we feed them imperfect diets, because they are hell bent on breaking their own necks, because we hack them on the roads, etc, etc....
The OP has a point, her horse has a job to do and at the moment its doing it, not unhappily if she's correct. Who's business is it in RL to tell her or anyone else what they should and shouldn't be doing with their horse?
The OP has a point, her horse has a job to do and at the moment its doing it, not unhappily if she's correct. Who's business is it in RL to tell her or anyone else what they should and shouldn't be doing with their horse?
Flame_
Well-Known Member
This is so sad.
A 14.2 welshie should carry an average size woman. Your saddler might be flat wrong, you know. Be really, really honest with yourself, do your research, weigh your horse, take photos of you on the horse to look at and make your own mind up.
Wagtail
Horse servant
Whose business is it to tell someone not to starve their horse, or flog their horse, or over feed their horse? Whose business is it to tell someone they can't keep 100 cats in their house, or leave their dogs in hot cars, or back a yearling? Overloading a horse is cruel IMO just like the other things I've listed. Some are worse than others, but still cruel.
Wagtail
Horse servant
This is so sad.
agree with this.
rhino
Well-Known Member
It's not even a rule. It was a figure plucked from a very limited, very small scale, badly written 'study' which only considered the immediate effects i.e. muscular soreness.
They ignored the cumulative damage, the importance of the horse being in good condition, conformation, type, etc (Can you tell I don't think much of it?)
People still like to throw the 20% figure about though
I spoke out today! I turned down a lovely pony, as I'm too heavy/tall for her.
Littlelegs
Well-Known Member
Rhino- I too don't use it as a personal guide. And I too turned down backing a pony at wkend. The height issue I could live with but I didn't feel my weight was suitable. I only mentioned the 20% rule because its being bandied around like its a target weight, rather than the absolute max.
Wagtail- very well put. I assume most of us have read black beauty? Which was inspired by the fact that back then, the attitude was 'who am I to interfere if someone beats or starves a horse to death'.
Wagtail- very well put. I assume most of us have read black beauty? Which was inspired by the fact that back then, the attitude was 'who am I to interfere if someone beats or starves a horse to death'.
stencilface
High upon a hillside
I wanted to speak out when I saw a HUGE lady riding a fine ish welsh D at a show this summer. Her ass flowed over the saddle, and the combined width of her legs was wider than the horse, plainly seen when viewed from the front. However I said nothing, and the judge did the same. Her entourage were scary quite frankly and I don't doubt I would have left with a black eye at best
I don't know who is supposed to say something really, I would think of myself as being brutally honest with people, but self preservation is also a strong point!!
I don't know who is supposed to say something really, I would think of myself as being brutally honest with people, but self preservation is also a strong point!!
FfionWinnie
Well-Known Member
When I said target I didn't really mean 20% should be the target more that coldfeet would know if she got back down to 11.11st which was a good weight for her, whether that would be ok for her horse.
popeyesno1fan
Well-Known Member
Havnt read all the replies, but the guy on the grey shouldn't be riding him, he's far too big for him. Poor horse. I have a friend thats well on the obese side of big, and he rides, but he always buys big, heavyweight hunters that are really up to carrying weight. He wouldnt dream of sitting up on any horse that wasn't 17hh +, nearly as wide as high, and fit, so up to carrying him. When he leaves the horse out to grass for a break, he'll send them away to get them fit before he'll get up. He thinks its only fair to the horse. Have to agree with him.
Littlelegs
Well-Known Member
Fw- wasn't aiming it at anyone in particular, it just seems to be a recurring theme with some, wasn't a dig at coldfeet.
Big Ben
Well-Known Member
On actual measures Ben stands 16.2hh on 9" of bone, he was bought as 17hh, but I have never found the other 2"
His calculated weight is 1386 pounds, though I really must take him over the weighbridge one of these days to get an actual weight.
So 20% would put him carrying 278 pounds, with rounding, so in reality with in a couple of weeks I will be at 20%, a couple of weeks more to allow for tack etc.
Currently my tack and I will be at 23% of his bodyweight, so for 3% you wanmt to crucify me for walking him for 20 mins 2 or 3 times a week
Or maybe my maths are worse than I thought.Willow, pictured in OP, is 15.2hh standing on 7.5 inches of bone
She weighs in at 1125, so 28% of her weight, so yes, work to do there.
Emmy is the interesting one, Polish Arab, standing 15hh on 8" of bone and rock hard feet.
According to the weight calculation she comes out at 1096, which I frankly find hard to believe, but she is very short compared to her girth, so nearly 30% for her.
Of all of them though Emmy is most compact, short back, well sprung, and tough as nails Arab, I often see it said that Arabs are better weight carriers so do we do the maths different for them? I have no intention of runing out there and riding her, it is a genuine question.
rhino
Well-Known Member
Arabs have fewer vertebra than other breeds of horse/pony so if you are looking at the analogy of a suspension bridge, the shorter the bridge the stronger it is. They also tend to have relatively short cannon bones which is often seen as another indicator of a decent weight carrier. It is often said that arabs, like Icelandic horses, have a higher bone density, but as I've yet to see ANY bone densitometry experiments being carried out I'll reserve judgement on that one!
Wagtail
Horse servant
Currently my tack and I will be at 23% of his bodyweight, so for 3% you wanmt to crucify me for walking him for 20 mins 2 or 3 times a week
It is not 3% though. Say it's 24 % with tack. The 20% (or one fifth) is 100% of the maximum weght you should be, so in actual fact you are 20% heavier than the heaviest you should be (with tack).
Sounds like you will soon be there though.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
OP, get a grip. You are too fat to ride these horses. Lose some weight before you get back up. Make sure your horses (all of them, from the Big Fella to the small one) are fit, conditioned and able to carry your weight. THEN go riding. Make life easy (for your dearly beloved horses, and yourself), it's a no-brainer.
Big Ben
Well-Known Member
I told you my maths sucked, but why did we go to 24%, I've allowed for rider and tack in my calculations, but yes I do get what you mean...
Achinghips
Well-Known Member
This is what the OP asked originally:
Point is, who should speak up, when and how? It is easy to set weight limits for your own horse, and refuse others to ride, but what on their own horse, would you say something to me in real life, if you saw me on Ben, or Willow? Would you speak up if the gentleman posted turned up to ride with you?
......
I believe it is the responsibility of the trainers/sellers to speak up. First and foremost though it is the responsibility of the buyer/rider. In real life I would not speak up to anyone, but would probably stare in disdain. If the gentleman in question turned up to ride with me, I would dismount and leave or if on a lesson, cancel the lesson, dismount and leave, explaining to the instructors my reasons for doing so.
On a forum I would be more vocal, protected by relative anonymity.
Point is, who should speak up, when and how? It is easy to set weight limits for your own horse, and refuse others to ride, but what on their own horse, would you say something to me in real life, if you saw me on Ben, or Willow? Would you speak up if the gentleman posted turned up to ride with you?
......
I believe it is the responsibility of the trainers/sellers to speak up. First and foremost though it is the responsibility of the buyer/rider. In real life I would not speak up to anyone, but would probably stare in disdain. If the gentleman in question turned up to ride with me, I would dismount and leave or if on a lesson, cancel the lesson, dismount and leave, explaining to the instructors my reasons for doing so.
On a forum I would be more vocal, protected by relative anonymity.
Big Ben
Well-Known Member
I was asked what weight he was, I'm answering, now we are into maths instead of opinions, it is interesting again, so my grip is fine thanks.
Interesting reading here..
Has there been a study on walking and the affects I wonder.
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Flame_
Well-Known Member
I'm not disagreeing, I just want to make the point that race horses are frequently pushed to and beyond their physical limits, so are many other horses tbh. Horses all have their jobs to do for us and some are highly demanding and cause the horses serious wear and tear and injuries, even brood mares end up dipping in the middle and are being placed at risk of complications. Is carrying a fat hobby rider around for a bit really that damaging to horses compared to say racing, eventing or polo? I know, "they're conditioned, blah blah, blah.." but really so is the fat person's leisure horse, in so much as any horse can be conditioned to become accustomed to whatever it is we are wanting them to do for us. I think we're in danger of being quite hypocritical here having a problem with just one physically demanding equine job, IYSWIM?
Coldfeet!
Well-Known Member
Hey Waytail/Flame,
Good advice, I wont get back on him now, like i say I fell off the wagon big style, I have turned him away, I took all of his measurements before I turned him away (weight/bone/height/girth/length) and I can see he is going through a pretty good growth spurt, he has gone bum high, im 5ft 4 and I wont even get back on the scales now but Im going to get it back off again, I know I can do it again, I did it once for him and I will do it again.
Then next year I will re-do his stats and do the maths.
I cant even look at a picture of myself on him, there is no point doing this until I can get back to where I was, let him grow on and mature etc. I will see what a bit more growth and maturity bring.
I could ride him fat, and even though I am not skinny when I have lost weight I still feel its unfair to make him carry more than he is able because its selfish and wrong, which is why I lost weight.
There was uproar among friends and family when this happened as everyone thought I worked so hard and did great and looked great and looked good on him but like I say doesnt matter what you weigh there is always some bu**er who thinks you are fat! LOL I didnt buy the saddle at the time as I didnt see the point but it was 1 16.5" saddle, correct me if I am wrong but this isnt an overly large saddle is it??
Good advice, I wont get back on him now, like i say I fell off the wagon big style, I have turned him away, I took all of his measurements before I turned him away (weight/bone/height/girth/length) and I can see he is going through a pretty good growth spurt, he has gone bum high, im 5ft 4 and I wont even get back on the scales now but Im going to get it back off again, I know I can do it again, I did it once for him and I will do it again.
Then next year I will re-do his stats and do the maths.
I cant even look at a picture of myself on him, there is no point doing this until I can get back to where I was, let him grow on and mature etc. I will see what a bit more growth and maturity bring.
I could ride him fat, and even though I am not skinny when I have lost weight I still feel its unfair to make him carry more than he is able because its selfish and wrong, which is why I lost weight.
There was uproar among friends and family when this happened as everyone thought I worked so hard and did great and looked great and looked good on him but like I say doesnt matter what you weigh there is always some bu**er who thinks you are fat! LOL I didnt buy the saddle at the time as I didnt see the point but it was 1 16.5" saddle, correct me if I am wrong but this isnt an overly large saddle is it??
FfionWinnie
Well-Known Member
When you do buy a saddle buy else where!