Helgstrand…

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I also don't see how 90% of this behaviour results in more money or a quicker training process, surely it will not only blemish expensive horses, but put the horse into a place where it is not mentally equipped to learn or progress. Whipping a horse that hard or kicking it so hard in the ribs with spurs has no discernable required outcome that I can fathom?! Whereas Rolkur I can see how this is a hideous instrument, the other things are just purely abuse for the sake of abuse. So even the 'argument' that they need to get results for owners, or quicken the training process etc don't even apply. Perhaps I am just naive and they believe it's conducive to something that I just don't know about.

 

[Cortez]

I also don't see how 90% of this behaviour results in more money or a quicker training process, surely it will not only blemish expensive horses, but put the horse into a place where it is not mentally equipped to learn or progress. Whipping a horse that hard or kicking it so hard in the ribs with spurs has no discerbable required outcome that I can fathom?! Whereas Rolkur I can see how this is a hideous instrument, the other things are just purely abuse for the sake of abuse. So even the 'argument' that they need to get results for owners, or quicken the training process etc don't even apply.

Well, clearly it has worked/speeded up their training. It is not true that using harsh punishment "never" works, no matter how much people want it to be true.

 

[Burnttoast]

I also don't see how 90% of this behaviour results in more money or a quicker training process, surely it will not only blemish expensive horses, but put the horse into a place where it is not mentally equipped to learn or progress. Whipping a horse that hard or kicking it so hard in the ribs with spurs has no discernable required outcome that I can fathom?! Whereas Rolkur I can see how this is a hideous instrument, the other things are just purely abuse for the sake of abuse. So even the 'argument' that they need to get results for owners, or quicken the training process etc don't even apply. Perhaps I am just naive and they believe it's conducive to something that I just don't know about.

I would imagine it's all (including rollkur) in pursuit of submission. What a lovely word. We need an alternative.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

Well, clearly it has worked/speeded up their training. It is not true that using harsh punishment "never" works, no matter how much people want it to be true.

Good point, well made.
I can't rationalise in my head how beating an already highly strung horse would aid in training in any way, but I am more than happy to stay naive in that regard.

 

[sbloom]

It's like all the BS said about not being able to make a horse do anything it doesn't want to do, so much whitewash from those for whom winning is all that matters (well, apart from money of course).

 

[eahotson]

This level of abuse should have been stamped out a long time ago, I think the bar should be higher than just going after obviously cruelty like this. The Sue Dyson work, what was the ethogram, really does help us sort the wood from the chaff, and too much of what is in the show ring is chaff. We have young riders coming through who have only ever been taught by competition riders, and they too have only ever been taught by competition riders, the days of a true dressage education is LONG ago. We lose sight of correct balance, of long term soundness, and obviously equine discomfort and lack of provision of friends, freedom, forage etc.

Well said.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

It’s sickening and depressing in equal measure. I guess many pros don’t even pretend to care about horses really. They are livestock. They do a job. The quicker the better. I think change will only come when judges judge differently - tension of any kind being severely marked down. Flashes and grackles not permitted - or certainly not tight enough to prevent mouth opening. Strong contacts marked down.

Not to mention horses who won’t enter the ring willingly in SJ being eliminated. No leading in the stressed rearers. Fat horses sent down the line in showing. Spur marks = elimination. Etc etc

Somehow unhappy horses need to be identified, and not able to do well.

 

[Rowreach]

This level of abuse should have been stamped out a long time ago, I think the bar should be higher than just going after obviously cruelty like this. The Sue Dyson work, what was the ethogram, really does help us sort the wood from the chaff, and too much of what is in the show ring is chaff. We have young riders coming through who have only ever been taught by competition riders, and they too have only ever been taught by competition riders, the days of a true dressage education is LONG ago. We lose sight of correct balance, of long term soundness, and obviously equine discomfort and lack of provision of friends, freedom, forage etc.

Same with equine colleges. I see colleges employing former students onto the staff and all the poor training and limited ideas are simply perpetuated. So few people ride properly, none of them understand about correct basics, everyone wants their horse to go in "an outline", and nobody recognises unsoundness when it's staring them in the face. It's all about making the horse do something, however you choose to do that.

 

[ester]

I think the trouble is that it is hard to identify in the ring. The Friesian in the warm up at Olympia was a different horse to the one presented to the judges. Which I guess gets us back to better warm up monitoring but not to what happens at home

 

[ihatework]

Good point, well made.
I can't rationalise in my head how beating an already highly strung horse would aid in training in any way, but I am more than happy to stay naive in that regard.

It’s essentially just bullying. Bully and abuse enough then people/horses/whatever shut up and put up because they don’t have an alternative

 

[ester]

We don’t see the ones that don’t cope with that sort of treatment.

They must have a pretty high breakdown rate? Or do they sell everything before it gets to that?

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Random inspection for any yard competing above a certain level? Or any yard, full stop? Licences needed to own horses?

I don’t know. The clueless/indifferent owners cause as much harm but welfare standards are so low that a horse has to be acutely at risk - not just suffering - for agencies to act.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

Also the entitled owners. Just today an owner was complaining they thought the pony had ulcers but can’t afford to scope or trial meds as they spent all the money on buying her.

If you can’t afford at least some level of vet care - YOU CAN’T AFFORD THE HORSE! Grrr.

 

[DabDab]

I think the breeding of dressage horses in the last 20-30 years has had a hand to play too. These horses are now so naturally expressive, uphill and elastic in their movement that people seem to be able to get away with just hammering the submission element (in whatever dubious way they choose) and still getting good marks for the resulting picture. If the same training techniques were employed on something like a native pony or a Thoroughbred I suspect the result would be pretty ugly and not troubling higher scores in any level of dressage.

 

[SilverLinings]

I am not against competitive dressage but I think changes in judging/marking might help to discourage 'forceful' (aggressive, cruel) training methods used by a number of riders.

Consistent signs of pain or discomfort during a test should be taken into account when scoring, resulting in a lower mark for the pair. More than x number of signs (or maybe problems identified in more than one test for affilliated riders) could result in a further sanction, such as the horse being required to have a vet check after leaving the ring.

The aim should be for the horses to produce all movements in a fairly relaxed and 'willing' way, not looking like they are only performing them under duress. If this was pushed then there would be a risk that using force when training at home would show up in competition as the horse would associate schooling manouvers with pain.

I have seen waaay too many dressage tests at all levels with horses constantly tail swishing, bunny-hopping/humping the back, sclera visible, excessive chomping at the bit etc, and many of them are highly placed or win. The horses who look happy and comfortable really stand out against the ones who don't, but as the ones who don't often produce exaggerated movements they tend to score higher.

The horse needs to be put at the front of the sport, not the movements, or the picture, or the exaggeration of natural paces, or the prizes or fame.

There are some very good riders who train and treat their horses empathetically and kindly, but unfortunately there are too many of the wrong sort.

 

[sbloom]

It’s essentially just bullying. Bully and abuse enough then people/horses/whatever shut up and put up because they don’t have an alternative

When accuracy and athleticism started to mean more than harmony and purity of gaits then everything changed, including, as DabDab says, breeding, though that was on that trajectory anyway. If anyone follows Becks Nairn on FB it's terrifying what modern breeding practices are resulting in (she is a taxidermist that has started applying her skills to dissections in a way not quite done before, or not shared in this way before).

And as Ambers Echo hints at, we try and make horses affordable for all, they're not, not to own anyway. And people need to get over their goals, horse suffer when we don't place them at the centre of what we do, no matter how important we say it is to owners' mental health, or their lives and their plans, that horses can do what is "required" of them.

We have our priorities all wrong - it's not new, but it used to be tempered by the expense and the reverence we had for the old masters, as well as breeding horses that coped better with all we threw at them.

 

[eahotson]

Same with equine colleges. I see colleges employing former students onto the staff and all the poor training and limited ideas are simply perpetuated. So few people ride properly, none of them understand about correct basics, everyone wants their horse to go in "an outline", and nobody recognises unsoundness when it's staring them in the face. It's all about making the horse do something, however you choose to do that.

Sadly all too true.

 

[Tiddlypom]

I was rather shocked to hear from an equine vet that they now prefer to work with private owners as opposed to pros. The pros are not interested in the long term future and soundness of their charges, they just want them patched up as quickly as possible and back out there competing and earning them money . If they break, they just sell or shoot them, rinse and repeat.

I find most pure competition dressage abhorrent to watch these days, despite my own competitive background being mostly in dressage.

 

[tristars]

In an industry where its seen as a bit annoying but mainly excusable for a senior member of staff to headbutt a junior member of staff there are huge issues

and the forthcoming 6 part doc on racing next year, could not possibly have an iota of defending a sport where it became evident last year that the rising concern over horse deaths seemed to be at an ` uncomfortable` level even among tv presenters

 

[YourValentine]

I hope that next time he rides into an arena he gets booed. Audiences should stand and turn their backs or hold banners in the stands so that televising/streaming his tests is very hard.

Basically, make it really hard for his "brand" to hold value so it starts to lose value.

It would require organisation amd dedication on the scale of XR or similar movements but it is do-able. Because ultimately the Helgstrand brand and associated wealth comes from you and I buying their products, supporting their events.
Hard to mobilise but when you can consumer power is VERY effective.

 

[YourValentine]

Or write to big FEI DR comps and ask if he is on the entry list, stating you intention to boycott the event if he is a competitor.
And then boycott them if he is.

If you have tickets to Paris 2024, be a great time to make a point...

 

[tristars]

i saw a telly thing the other day, breeding insects for some purpose in france, just caught part of it, the senior scientist on the project was showing concern for the welfare of the what look like maggots to me! he expressed interest in monitoring pain etc, learning how the maggots lives can be understood so as to remove stress etc,

yet highly developed animals, horses are subjected to all manner of abuse, including death by competition, which is of course just kinda brushed off, as in` well they live like kings`, shame if they break theirs necks, backs legs

 

[tristars]

I hope that next time he rides into an arena he gets booed. Audiences should stand and turn their backs or hold banners in the stands so that televising/streaming his tests is very hard.

Basically, make it really hard for his "brand" to hold value so it starts to lose value.

It would require organisation amd dedication on the scale of XR or similar movements but it is do-able. Because ultimately the Helgstrand brand and associated wealth comes from you and I buying their products, supporting their events.
Hard to mobilise but when you can consumer power is VERY effective.

he should be banned by the sports governing body

 

[YourValentine]

he should be banned by the sports governing body

That too, sadly I think he "owns" half now the governing body

 

[Jellymoon]

Submission - he sounds like an out and out bully... Also I read somewhere it builds up muscles in the chest that make the forelegs step higher but not sure how true that is.

A dressage trainer once explained it to me: they ride them like that in the warm up to create maximum tension and forced submission, and then once they go in the ring, they let them lift their head and they spring forward with huge power and expression, allowed to be free at last.
Hideous, fake, so cruel.
But it was a huge thing on the dressage scene and with lots of high level people doing it, and trainers teaching it, it normalised the abnormal.
I believe Totilas was ridden in that way, was he not?

 

[Maddie Moo]

A dressage trainer once explained it to me: they ride them like that in the warm up to create maximum tension and forced submission, and then once they go in the ring, they let them lift their head and they spring forward with huge power and expression, allowed to be free at last.
Hideous, fake, so cruel.
But it was a huge thing on the dressage scene and with lots of high level people doing it, and trainers teaching it, it normalised the abnormal.
I believe Totilas was ridden in that way, was he not?

Indeed so…by both Edward Gal and Matthias Rath.

 

[meleeka]

Is the documentary being shown on mainstream TV? I’m not hopeful it will change anything.

 

[ThreeFurs]

Is the documentary being shown on mainstream TV? I’m not hopeful it will change anything.

Apparently its only been shown in Denmark, and TV2 is a pay service [credit card, +address in Denmark] but I imagine it will find its way to free social media pretty soon.

But yes I agree with the need to not just shift the deck chairs around, but get stuff changed.

And that's what some commenters on Epona tv's Facebook page are saying; that the focus should be wider than just one yard in one country [although he's syndicated all over Europe].

Other commentators have suggested actions such as live dressage audiences turning their backs when he rides, displaying placards [hard to edit out if you're at the front rows], and other riders/teams boycotting competitions if he's competing. Paris will be a biggie with regard to both the Danish team and horse sports' 'social license to operate'.

ps: I watched the 'raw' clips in the article in Danish previewing episode 1, [some convos in English] and I felt vomitous. I was also depressed by the scale of it all. He has 60 riders working 350 horses a day, that he will sell for 5 - 6 figures each.

Horrific, but as my late mother used to quote 'we must lose ourselves in action lest we wither in despair'. [yeah it used to annoy me too, but her Builder Generation were taught to memorize prose and poetry by heart at school]. But action IS certainly needed

 

[clairebearnz]

When accuracy and athleticism started to mean more than harmony and purity of gaits then everything changed, including, as DabDab says, breeding, though that was on that trajectory anyway. If anyone follows Becks Nairn on FB it's terrifying what modern breeding practices are resulting in (she is a taxidermist that has started applying her skills to dissections in a way not quite done before, or not shared in this way before).

And as Ambers Echo hints at, we try and make horses affordable for all, they're not, not to own anyway. And people need to get over their goals, horse suffer when we don't place them at the centre of what we do, no matter how important we say it is to owners' mental health, or their lives and their plans, that horses can do what is "required" of them.

We have our priorities all wrong - it's not new, but it used to be tempered by the expense and the reverence we had for the old masters, as well as breeding horses that coped better with all we threw at them.

Just FYI, Becks Nairn has no formal training and is a bit notorious in the local area so I'd be hesitant to take her word as gospel. Her knowledge of biomechanics is pretty poor.

 

[ThreeFurs]

Danish Equestrian Federation Statement: he's been excluded from the national team and all national team activities. https://rideforbund.dk/Files/Files/Filer til nyheder/Press release Mr. Helgstrand excluded from the national team.pdf?fbclid=IwAR3Vw5Q8aogCATXgoF6ptw9K_y-NM4ej3uShSLRVl-1BkpOL99M3OoNgJ5o

And in your in a boycotting mood [and who isn't] here is a list of equestrian brands owned by Global Equestrian Group, the owner behind Helgstrand Dressage https://globalequestriangroup.com/b...zU07CAnuLrfbZkQRj0Dpnrh8HEjtf1Ya09e9YwF2oa068

Global Equestrian Group, funded by Waterland Private Equity, must be having a melt down.