YourValentine
Well-Known Member
Good! It is only "for now" but I hope it becomes permanent.
Helgstrand…
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Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
Well that’s about as scathing as it gets. Now for all the sponsors to drip him and the FEI to strip Helgstrand Events of The Nations Cup
sbloom
Well-Known Member
I'm aware she's controversial, she brings a different perspective to what she sees. She does not replace the stalwarts of dissection but her work is interesting nonetheless.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
From a UK National level warmup in the last year. My own photo. There was a chestnut being ridden the same. Not challenged by anyone.
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reynold
Well-Known Member
That's a strong statement from the Danish federation. I hope it is extended to Germany and Ludger. I watched 2 of his riders compete in the last 16 at the SuperGP in Prague at the weekend. Ludger was there and watching. To my non-expert eye neither of the horses looked that happy and Ludger's face in the watching area was a picture at times...
I think that in both dressage and SJ (and possibly eventing) there needs to be a review of what is demanded at the age-based competitions. The 4, 5 and 6 yr old dressage classes demand a high degree of training/movements at a young age. I have wondered for a long time if this is a significant contributor to the pressure in professional training to get horses ready for higher level movements or jump heights/complexity at too young an age, alongside the intensive breeding for 'flashy' movement.
I also think that whilst 'economy of scale' makes the (very) large competition yards more financially viable (with the ability to press down on suppliers to reduce price of essential goods) there ought to be some limits imposed on the number of horses kept in one training establishment. High numbers makes it less likely that each horse will be treated and trained as an individual - which is what each animal deserves.
Insisting on a maximum limit to the stable size/numbers would also have the effect of spreading the jam further, which could benefit smaller (and possibly more dedicated) trainers/riders. (A bit of racing influence coming in here - where a few very large trainers are creaming off the top and leaving few crumbs for equally able trainers that struggle to get the better horses and thus slowly spiral out of existence). All the jam in too few hands is not good for any branch of equestrian sport.
One thing racing does get right (mainly) is that punishments once caught can be very severe (10 yr bans in some cases). The FEI ought to look again at penalties imposed for welfare/cruelty cases as a change from an intense focus on banned substances. The prospect of 10yr, 20 yr or permanent bans might focus minds but would need to be accompanied by something like our legal penalties over here that also ban people convicted of cruelty from owning or caring for animals.
We cannot end up with a situation where Helgstrand is banned from competition but is still allowed to own horses and train horses (and people) to be ridden. He must be banned from owning/keeping ANY horse.
Sorry - got a bit rambling
I think that in both dressage and SJ (and possibly eventing) there needs to be a review of what is demanded at the age-based competitions. The 4, 5 and 6 yr old dressage classes demand a high degree of training/movements at a young age. I have wondered for a long time if this is a significant contributor to the pressure in professional training to get horses ready for higher level movements or jump heights/complexity at too young an age, alongside the intensive breeding for 'flashy' movement.
I also think that whilst 'economy of scale' makes the (very) large competition yards more financially viable (with the ability to press down on suppliers to reduce price of essential goods) there ought to be some limits imposed on the number of horses kept in one training establishment. High numbers makes it less likely that each horse will be treated and trained as an individual - which is what each animal deserves.
Insisting on a maximum limit to the stable size/numbers would also have the effect of spreading the jam further, which could benefit smaller (and possibly more dedicated) trainers/riders. (A bit of racing influence coming in here - where a few very large trainers are creaming off the top and leaving few crumbs for equally able trainers that struggle to get the better horses and thus slowly spiral out of existence). All the jam in too few hands is not good for any branch of equestrian sport.
One thing racing does get right (mainly) is that punishments once caught can be very severe (10 yr bans in some cases). The FEI ought to look again at penalties imposed for welfare/cruelty cases as a change from an intense focus on banned substances. The prospect of 10yr, 20 yr or permanent bans might focus minds but would need to be accompanied by something like our legal penalties over here that also ban people convicted of cruelty from owning or caring for animals.
We cannot end up with a situation where Helgstrand is banned from competition but is still allowed to own horses and train horses (and people) to be ridden. He must be banned from owning/keeping ANY horse.
Sorry - got a bit rambling
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
I agree re age classes. I hate them in SJ and eventing too.
The pros know they are too much too young, and keep their best horses back. It's just a way of adding value for sale.
The pros know they are too much too young, and keep their best horses back. It's just a way of adding value for sale.
eahotson
Well-Known Member
There is too much money involved.Even in purely human based sports young children and teenagers are abused and exploited.
Caol Ila
Well-Known Member
Forgot they bought Chronicle of the Horse, but I was aware at the time because there was a kerfuffle on the COTH forums about it. People wondering if COTH journalists would be able to write about the dodgy sh1t that goes on at Helgstrand Dressage and question the young horse classes and, in general, act like a free press. That was well before this documentary, but he was a known practitioner of rollkur and all that.
It's one of the few equestrian magazines that actually has some good writing, and I like the forums as well.
LEC
Opinions are like bum holes, everyone has one.
As I always say Age classes are designed purely for the 5% not the 95%. They are not the problem as supposed to identify special horses and do so on the whole. If you are ramming your horse to do it then clearly it shouldn’t be going. The best horses have hardly any work before it as don’t need to.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
But plenty do ‘ram’ the horse to compete in the age classes 
. It adds £££s to the price and takes years off the horses working life.
. It adds £££s to the price and takes years off the horses working life.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
I used to do young horse classes with some of mine (not here, in the States). Not one of them had "years taken off their working life", in fact several went on to FEI levels and all had successful dressage careers. Their owners seemed very happy, it's not always a terrible thing.But plenty do ‘ram’ the horse to compete in the age classes
sbloom
Well-Known Member
But plenty do ‘ram’ the horse to compete in the age classes
And in some ways breeding is geared up to it, they know the odds are slim of getting horses that will be competitive in young horse classes but doesn't mean they don't slant their programmes towards it (and the auctions of course).
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Absolutely true (I didn’t breed for the classes, but I know many "big" studs that did so), the economics are undeniable. The problem is that many high-end owners are not horsemen and neither know nor care about the process and effects of training horses.
TPO
🤠🏴
Not that I have the first clue about YH classes but I guess the difference in how [well] they are produced comes down to the vast difference between a good producer who knows what they are doing on a bred for the job horse, and a not so good producer trying to fit a square peg into a round hole?
sbloom
Well-Known Member
Only if you think that being bred for this particular job is a good thing, especially coupled with so many modern training techniques (not getting on to the actual abuse we're seeing at Helgstrand).
ihatework
Well-Known Member
Pretty much!
From an eventing perspective I generally think though if you have to ‘produce’ the horse then it falls into one of two brackets - not the right horse for the class and therefore the amount of production to get it there is probably detrimental to the horse. Or it’s a bread and butter horse, fancy and capable and pays the bills for the pro. That’s life I suppose.
I’m very anti 4yo classes. None of my horses have ever done one or ever will.
5+ I’m open to them, if the horse just happens to be ready, but I wouldn’t be aiming for them per sey
tristars
Well-Known Member
that top photo in particular, the rider needs completely `re arranging` the back the legs the hands the overall posture is crap
thats , one very good horse, the saddest thing of all is he was a horse that did not need riding like that, if only he had been ridden properly and allowed to truly sparkle in his own special way instead of being suppressed because he was` a little on fire ` as a youngster, if only he had met a rider to match his own courage
photo_jo
Well-Known Member
According to Eurodressage they had in actual fact seen the footage a few months ago- perhaps waiting to see if Helgstrund managed to get an injunction to prevent it being broadcast as then they could have stayed quiet
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SEL
Well-Known Member
Its a start - although I don't think they had any choice
What's concerning is the number of FB posts from Danish or European riders saying they knew this was going on, especially as some have come across horses who have come from his "system". If so many people knew then the people in power must have turned a blind eye until they had no other option.
Cortez
Tough but Fair
Oh they all know......
eahotson
Well-Known Member
Of course.
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
When big riders are riding and selling for Helgstrand but saying they love their horses and blah blah yeah right.
eurodressage.com
Danish Associations and Former Team Trainer React on Social Licence to Operate Following Operation X
A few international dressage riders have posted reactions to the Operation X documentary and touched upon the social licence to operate and the future of equestrian sport.
AShetlandBitMeOnce
Well-Known Member
Th reactions I have seen so far are all utterly hollow, Helgstrand is just saying whatever he thinks people want to hear whilst most likley concocting ways to prevent being seen continuining in the same way moving forward. All of his fellow riders are claiming outrage and upset and not one of them are in reality the least bit surprised, and are likely as guilty as he is - 60 riders in that place, 350 horses a day and in the documentary they comment on how rare it is that every single horse observed was being subjected to the same abuse (they said hard riding or words to that effect, I have chosen the word abuse).. and as for his business connections, they're sitting back making uncommital statements and seeing whether this will all blow over so they can continue scratching each others backs. It's absolutely disgusting and makes me so angry.
YourValentine
Well-Known Member
Completely agree, makes you SO angry. Helgstrand is not going to have a sudden change of heart and completely transform his riding, he's just going to wait for all this to blow over.
I guess we just have to make sure it doesn't 'blow over'.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
The man's a devious shark. How many people realise that he acted as an agent to sell a horse, sold it for more than he told the owner, and pocketed the difference?
Google will translate.
nordjyske.dk
People who can do that will tell whatever plausible lies they need to to carry on exactly as they were before.
I'll bet all his contracts now have non disclosure clauses in them making further exposure very difficult and potentially very costly.
.
Google will translate.
Mystik i Helgstrand-handel: - Jeg købte ikke en hest. Jeg gjorde bare en tjeneste
Andreas Helgstrand solgte to nordjyske avleres hest i USA bag om ryggen på dem. Mystik om køber
People who can do that will tell whatever plausible lies they need to to carry on exactly as they were before.
I'll bet all his contracts now have non disclosure clauses in them making further exposure very difficult and potentially very costly.
.
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eahotson
Well-Known Member
I bet a lot of yards are busy drawing up non disclosure clauses for their staff.The man's a devious shark. How many people realise that he acted as an agent to sell a horse, sold it for more than he told the owner, and pocketed the difference?
Google will translate.
Mystik i Helgstrand-handel: - Jeg købte ikke en hest. Jeg gjorde bare en tjeneste
Andreas Helgstrand solgte to nordjyske avleres hest i USA bag om ryggen på dem. Mystik om køber
People who can do that will tell whatever plausible lies they need to to carry on exactly as they were before.
I'll bet all his contracts now have non disclosure clauses in them making further exposure very difficult and potentially very costly.
.
shortstuff99
Well-Known Member
Didn't a certain British SJer with the initials BM also get in trouble for doing this? Seems a common tactic....The man's a devious shark. How many people realise that he acted as an agent to sell a horse, sold it for more than he told the owner, and pocketed the difference?
Google will translate.
Mystik i Helgstrand-handel: - Jeg købte ikke en hest. Jeg gjorde bare en tjeneste
Andreas Helgstrand solgte to nordjyske avleres hest i USA bag om ryggen på dem. Mystik om køber
People who can do that will tell whatever plausible lies they need to to carry on exactly as they were before.
I'll bet all his contracts now have non disclosure clauses in them making further exposure very difficult and potentially very costly.
.
reynold
Well-Known Member
According to the write up on H&H website this morning Helgstrand has been reported to the Police, 'who are investigating'.
I know Germany have quite strong animal welfare laws and I think I heard that Denmark is similar?
Maybe he'll eventually end up in prison for this, we can but hope.
I know Germany have quite strong animal welfare laws and I think I heard that Denmark is similar?
Maybe he'll eventually end up in prison for this, we can but hope.
Ample Prosecco
Still wittering on
Or for fraud. Hopefully!
ihatework
Well-Known Member
It goes on ALL the time across disciplines.
Horses really bring out the worst in some people.