Horse and rider with extreme issues...

[palo1]

Absolutely this is right. It is such an incredibly un-stated part of horsemanship to be able to identify and cultivate a good partnership to start with where possible. Sadly I think a great many people think or exist in a context where horses are things that you kind of pick off a shelf depending on what attributes they have rather than investigating any natural affinity between horse and person. That is partly because of the 'system' we have here, partly because that sounds very new-age and wafty (lol!!) and partly because 'affinity' and partnership are tricky to navigate and instruct. I always find it incredibly interesting to see what partnerships are formed with animals and how they work but not everyone does that or wants it; some folk want a less 'complex' interaction with animals - even with love and affection as a given that doesn't necessarily mean the kind of metacognitive engagement with ideas about partnership. For me that is central but not for everyone...

 

[PapaverFollis]

When we were struggling with a difficult, unsuitable horse the thing that really tipped the balance was going for a jumping lesson and a trek at a riding centre and having a jolting realisation that this was supposed to be fun! For about 24 hours it made us feel really motivated to sort the difficult horse out... then he went and did yet another stupid thing and we realised that that was never going to happen ?

Perhaps if you treated her to a fun half day ride or something at a good trekking centre once things open up a bit again... she might have a similar realisation?

I do suspect that even if the horse can be fixed that the relationship has probably gone beyond by this point.

 

[milliepops]

Absolutely this is right. It is such an incredibly un-stated part of horsemanship to be able to identify and cultivate a good partnership to start with where possible. Sadly I think a great many people think or exist in a context where horses are things that you kind of pick off a shelf depending on what attributes they have rather than investigating any natural affinity between horse and person. That is partly because of the 'system' we have here, partly because that sounds very new-age and wafty and partly because 'affinity' and partnership are tricky to navigate and instruct. I always find it incredibly interesting to see what partnerships are formed with animals and how they work but not everyone does that or wants it; some folk want a less 'complex' interaction with animals - even with love and affection as a given that doesn't necessarily mean the kind of metacognitive engagement with ideas about partnership. For me that is central but not for everyone...

yeah and a big part of this boils down to whether you buy a horse to do a job or are interested in the horse for its own sake, as well.
If I spent 10k on a horse to do dressage with then it would be a disappointment if it turned out to be school sour and only wanted to be an endurance horse
I have things I love doing with horses - eventing was a past passion for instance, but I've learned to find a lot of pleasure from other things and at the moment that's dressage. Maybe if my homebred's talents lie elsewhere I'll find myself pivoting again. but that's because I've committed to the individual horse rather than to a riding dream. Neither is right or wrong, it's down to the individual but I think you have to recognise when a horse and rider combination fundamentally aren't compatible for one reason or another.

 

[Ample Prosecco]

I once had a horse like this. I have never had such a frustrating experience with a horse. The only thing he did willingly was follow other horses on a hack. On his own, you could not go more than 4 steps in an arena or our hacking in any direction without stopping. He did not rear or go backwards. He just stood still like he was rooted to the floor. He was like an oak tree! Totally immovable. My first full lap of the arena in walk was triumph! Took him to Somerford to see if the farm ride would be better for him. Nope. Got a mile down the road, would not go on, would not go back, would not lead. At one point I was giving serious consideration to just abandoning him in there!

Various trainers saw him too but no joy. Tried all sorts of different approaches. Guy Robertson saw him - the Brannaman style of 'light as you can be hard as you need to be' so rewarding every try however small but equally susing spurs, whip. Ignored all pressure however hard it got. Tried shaking pebbles, wips wops, waiting it out. Tried clicker. Tried hiding carrots around the arena so when he moved he'd 'find' a treat.

In the end I got a horse psycholigist who described him as a 'void' horse. Empty/ shut down. But would follow other horses so I sold with full disclosure to someone who just wanted to hack in company. If he had not even hacked I'd have retired him. He was actually very friendly and affectionate on the ground, just could not stand being ridden and any pressure at all, just sent him into himself where he became unreachable.

I would not advise your friend spends too much more time or money trying to fix this. Life's too short and horses are too time consuming, stressful and expensive!

 

[quizzie]

Can I suggest that if she is going to do a vitamin e trial as a last resort option, that she gets the Nano E....I know it is expensive, but it is significantly more efficiently absorbed and utilised than even the normal natural powder versions...and in some horses the only one that works.

 

[Rowreach]

Have his eyes been tested?

 

[palo1]

yeah and a big part of this boils down to whether you buy a horse to do a job or are interested in the horse for its own sake, as well.
If I spent 10k on a horse to do dressage with then it would be a disappointment if it turned out to be school sour and only wanted to be an endurance horse
I have things I love doing with horses - eventing was a past passion for instance, but I've learned to find a lot of pleasure from other things and at the moment that's dressage. Maybe if my homebred's talents lie elsewhere I'll find myself pivoting again. but that's because I've committed to the individual horse rather than to a riding dream. Neither is right or wrong, it's down to the individual but I think you have to recognise when a horse and rider combination fundamentally aren't compatible for one reason or another.

Yes, that is it. I have never had much money to buy horses with so have always had to deal with the partnership thing and direct my attention to 'achieving' what seems possible rather than necessarily my particular interests. This has meant that I am not especially skilled in one area but happy to adapt to what will work best for that partnership. I am so used to doing that now that I don't really have any competitive 'ambitions'!! However I am happy to have a go at most 'disciplines' and have fun doing that so there are not usually any hard feelings I also know that things can go wrong and when they do the strength of partnership is enormously helpful in retrieving something - whether disaster comes in veterinary, personal or sporting terms. I find animals very interesting and often surprising to work with too !!

I do think for some people and in some competitive situations it is possibly harder to focus on the partnership element as you can really identify more particularly what you hope to gain from a particular horse purchase/acquisition and ticking those boxes probably is important. In this instance my friend absolutely wanted a particular 'type' (Irish SH), size (16.2+), age and sex with a 'record' as a safe hunter. Having had fun with previous horses I am not sure that she was especially worried about feeling a particular affinity with the horses she viewed as I guess she thought that 'feeling' would come in time. That is pretty much the opposite way I tend to choose horses although I know I probably need certain things to start with. When I went to view youngsters a couple of years ago now I knew I would 'need/want' something of around 15.2 and wanted a youngster. After that it was, for me, entirely down to feeling which horse I wanted to work with and how they responded - albeit in a very limited way, to me! But I had no particular end goal in mind so that was easy enough... Competitive riders do recognise the importance of partnership and that is what usually takes them through the hard times but it is not really something that is emphasised in our horse culture. I don't really know why - perhaps younger riders or those with really excellent training/coaching do get more of that? I have noticed that the best trainers discuss it but at RS level (and in more informal settings) 'riding goals' are a bit more concrete.

It is possible to have both clear goals and partnership of course; to know where you want to go and find a great partnership to share that journey and I have been lucky in that way too with several horses but I don't take it as a given. To be honest with my friend's horse, he may possibly be happy doing something else but at the moment I don't see him as happy at all; he really doesn't seem to enjoy anything. I do think my friend made a mistake when buying too of not 'feeling' something really special - he was a very smart horse that ticked all the specific boxes and there were also questions over some aspects of his 'experience' that possibly could have rung warning bells. It is a very sad situation. It is also frightening how much money has been spent to end up with a pretty much unsaleable horse (that was a pricey beggar to start with!!) and no fun or 'reward'. I think possibly horse feels similarly!

 

[palo1]

Have his eyes been tested?

Yes, eyes tested and hearing He is good in both respects.

 

[palo1]

When we were struggling with a difficult, unsuitable horse the thing that really tipped the balance was going for a jumping lesson and a trek at a riding centre and having a jolting realisation that this was supposed to be fun! For about 24 hours it made us feel really motivated to sort the difficult horse out... then he went and did yet another stupid thing and we realised that that was never going to happen ?

Perhaps if you treated her to a fun half day ride or something at a good trekking centre once things open up a bit again... she might have a similar realisation?

I do suspect that even if the horse can be fixed that the relationship has probably gone beyond by this point.

Yes, I think it is really honest to acknowledge when things are not working and that the best thing is to move on. It is not necessarily easy and accepting that things have got to that point is painful I think.

 

[ycbm]

Sounds like he needs to be tested for PSSM. Mine was exactly like that and I thought he was just a backwards, nappy horse. Spent thousands on vet investigations. Turns out he has PSSM which is a £30 test.

The £30 test is type 1 only and type 2 seems to be more prevalent. There is a test for 2 but it's over £200 and not yet fully researched and peer reviewed.

I had a type 2, negative to the £30 test, diagnosed by his reaction to high doses of vitamin E and a response to alcar, though I see these days alcar tends to be recommended for type 1 not 2.
.

Palo the vitamin E must be natural or double quantity synthetic and with a horse that bad i think most people would try 8-10,000iu a day.

 

[palo1]

I once had a horse like this. I have never had such a frustrating experience with a horse. The only thing he did willingly was follow other horses on a hack. On his own, you could not go more than 4 steps in an arena or our hacking in any direction without stopping. He did not rear or go backwards. He just stood still like he was rooted to the floor. He was like an oak tree! Totally immovable. My first full lap of the arena in walk was triumph! Took him to Somerford to see if the farm ride would be better for him. Nope. Got a mile down the road, would not go on, would not go back, would not lead. At one point I was giving serious consideration to just abandoning him in there!

Various trainers saw him too but no joy. Tried all sorts of different approaches. Guy Robertson saw him - the Brannaman style of 'light as you can be hard as you need to be' so rewarding every try however small but equally susing spurs, whip. Ignored all pressure however hard it got. Tried shaking pebbles, wips wops, waiting it out. Tried clicker. Tried hiding carrots around the arena so when he moved he'd 'find' a treat.

In the end I got a horse psycholigist who described him as a 'void' horse. Empty/ shut down. But would follow other horses so I sold with full disclosure to someone who just wanted to hack in company. If he had not even hacked I'd have retired him. He was actually very friendly and affectionate on the ground, just could not stand being ridden and any pressure at all, just sent him into himself where he became unreachable.

I would not advise your friend spends too much more time or money trying to fix this. Life's too short and horses are too time consuming, stressful and expensive!

That sounds so familiar AmbersEcho I would absolutely describe him as numb and totally shut down. Except when he is frolicking out of control in sideways-canter-bronk, without any reference whatsoever to anything around him. He looks quite cheery and 'alive' then - ears are usually pricked and eyes soft. It is very, very odd. I agree that life is too short.

 

[palo1]

The £30 test is type 1 only and type 2 seems to be more prevalent. There is a test for 2 but it's over £200 and not yet fully researched and peer reviewed.

I had a type 2, negative to the £30 test, diagnosed by his reaction to high doses of vitamin E and a response to alcar, though I see these days alcar tends to be recommended for type 1 not 2.
.

Palo the vitamin E must be natural or double quantity synthetic and with a horse that bad i think most people would try 8-10,000iu a day.

Thank you - this is exactly what I have suggested; that she feed 10,000 iu a day for a few weeks to identify if that makes any difference. I have told her the natural Vit E is the best bet and still pretty cheap in relation to other vet investigations. I don't know if she will follow that route or not yet but it is the second time I have suggested it to her as a test for muscle issues.

 

[ycbm]

Does he zone out in the stable and then leap out of his skin when you absent mindedly touch him, Palo? That was what I found wierdest about my PSSM one, who sounds very similar except he wasn't usually dangerous (though he did buck me off twice in 3 years).
.

 

[oldie48]

Having had a horse that didn't want to dressage anymore, I completely understand that ability to shut down but mine was always happy to hack, tbh a completely different beast. It's when they don't want to do anything that I really worry there's a physical problem. I don't count hunting as it's in a group with lots of adrenaline and having seem a lot of lame horses on hunts (sorry but I have) I know how some will work through discomfort.

 

[Goldenstar]

I would get a bone scan and the hind suspensories scanned .

 

[palo1]

Having had a horse that didn't want to dressage anymore, I completely understand that ability to shut down but mine was always happy to hack, tbh a completely different beast. It's when they don't want to do anything that I really worry there's a physical problem. I don't count hunting as it's in a group with lots of adrenaline and having seem a lot of lame horses on hunts (sorry but I have) I know how some will work through discomfort.

Quite right; plenty of really quite unwell horses would appear to 'enjoy' a days hunting! That is something that the most responsible hunting folk do bear in mind thankfully though I too have seen some unpleasant things in that way. Also at fun rides etc. This horse likes being in the field; he has a good relationship with his retired field mate, he plays athletically, runs up to the gate to come in and walk up to his stable. He loads fine now and is no trouble to tack up either! He doesn't appear to enjoy any riding activity outside hunting and I have seen him acting deeply unpleasantly in that situation too.

 

[palo1]

I would get a bone scan and the hind suspensories scanned .

I don't know if this has or hasn't been done tbh. This friend's last horse had suspensory issues which were very successfully treated and rehabbed by her so I think she would be very aware of this potentially. So, so much money has gone to the vet that I find it hard to keep up tbh!!

 

[soloequestrian]

I'm sorry, I don't have anything helpful to add but I'm fascinated to know - why did she buy him? And for quite a lot of money??

 

[scats]

Before I did anything else, I’d scan his suspensories. Might aswell, seen as everything else has been checked. It would be a bit counter productive to not check out the one thing that could very likely be the issue (my PSD mare was sound behind, but had dreadful napping issues)

 

[palo1]

I'm sorry, I don't have anything helpful to add but I'm fascinated to know - why did she buy him? And for quite a lot of money??

She bought him as her riding 'last hurrah!' after losing a lovely albeit quirky mare to a Sacroiliac injury sustained in the field. She wanted a hunter for drag hunting, fun rides, low level local jumping etc. He lives at home in the lap of luxury with a very nice older companion (retired horse that preceded the lost mare). He was a five figure sum at purchase. He looks fabulous - beautiful, impressive and very well made. He has been photographed by Vogue for fashion articles and has lovely turn out, lovely stables, very well made and fitted tack, regular vet, dental and tack checks; everything that a horse could need to keep it healthy and happy!! He has, on occasion been quite well behaved which is extremely frustrating under the circs!

ETA - I am not suggesting that Vogue fashion photographers have a good understanding of horse-flesh here btw!! Just slightly frivolous illustration of how much is thought of his good looks

 

[SEL]

Sounds like he needs to be tested for PSSM. Mine was exactly like that and I thought he was just a backwards, nappy horse. Spent thousands on vet investigations. Turns out he has PSSM which is a £30 test.

Mine too. Couldn't care less about hacking companions, would plant, rear, reverse backwards at speed and bucked like a rodeo horse when asked to canter. Type 1 PSSM and I only got her tested because I read an article and had a lightbulb moment.

 

[palo1]

Mine too. Couldn't care less about hacking companions, would plant, rear, reverse backwards at speed and bucked like a rodeo horse when asked to canter. Type 1 PSSM and I only got her tested because I read an article and had a lightbulb moment.

Which article did you read - can you remember by any chance? I could pass that on to my friend.

 

[SEL]

Whereabouts are you? For a different vet experience Tom Beech is worth a try and if she can get the horse to the clinic he does with Dan Wain then she'd have 2 experienced but different to the norm viewpoints.

My friend's mare had Lyme disease (worth considering?) and it took and long, long time to diagnose and then treat. During that time the mare was stiff, nappy, uncooperative and at times downright dangerous. Even when she was 'well' the behaviours were so ingrained that she continued to be incredibly difficult. She went on full training livery with Dan for a while and he turned her around - slowly, gently persuading her that her body could work again. I watched one session and it was obvious this tricky mare really liked him and was going to try whatever he wanted her to do.

 

[Gingerwitch]

I once had a horse like this. I have never had such a frustrating experience with a horse. The only thing he did willingly was follow other horses on a hack. On his own, you could not go more than 4 steps in an arena or our hacking in any direction without stopping. He did not rear or go backwards. He just stood still like he was rooted to the floor. He was like an oak tree! Totally immovable. My first full lap of the arena in walk was triumph! Took him to Somerford to see if the farm ride would be better for him. Nope. Got a mile down the road, would not go on, would not go back, would not lead. At one point I was giving serious consideration to just abandoning him in there!

Various trainers saw him too but no joy. Tried all sorts of different approaches. Guy Robertson saw him - the Brannaman style of 'light as you can be hard as you need to be' so rewarding every try however small but equally susing spurs, whip. Ignored all pressure however hard it got. Tried shaking pebbles, wips wops, waiting it out. Tried clicker. Tried hiding carrots around the arena so when he moved he'd 'find' a treat.

In the end I got a horse psycholigist who described him as a 'void' horse. Empty/ shut down. But would follow other horses so I sold with full disclosure to someone who just wanted to hack in company. If he had not even hacked I'd have retired him. He was actually very friendly and affectionate on the ground, just could not stand being ridden and any pressure at all, just sent him into himself where he became unreachable.

I would not advise your friend spends too much more time or money trying to fix this. Life's too short and horses are too time consuming, stressful and expensive!

What does a horse psychologist do and who did you use? PM me if you like. After tonight's session with grub I am starting to wonder if I will ever get to the bottom of her x

 

[Gingerwitch]

I would get a bone scan and the hind suspensories scanned .

Is a bone scan for the overall horse or just sections of the horse and is it the same sort of MRI pricing ,?

 

[SEL]

Which article did you read - can you remember by any chance? I could pass that on to my friend.

I was on one of the appaloosa sites at the time, but I saw this list recently and thought it helpful. I think people tend to assume PSSM = tying up whereas actually 'exercise intolerance' of one form or another is more typical.

http://www.pssm.eu/en/symptoms-of-pssm.html

 

[Gingerwitch]

Can I suggest that if she is going to do a vitamin e trial as a last resort option, that she gets the Nano E....I know it is expensive, but it is significantly more efficiently absorbed and utilised than even the normal natural powder versions...and in some horses the only one that works.

I have never heard of bit e for horses before tonight. So it's certainly been a school day for me.

 

[ycbm]

I have never heard of vit e for horses before tonight. So it's certainly been a school day for me.

Try my thin horse thread. Nothing wrong with him at all except low winter vitamin E levels!

 

[ycbm]

Can I suggest that if she is going to do a vitamin e trial as a last resort option, that she gets the Nano E....I know it is expensive, but it is significantly more efficiently absorbed and utilised than even the normal natural powder versions...and in some horses the only one that works.

Is this the 100% RRR version? There's a US website selling it on ebay but I don't know whether to trust it!

 

[conniegirl]

Is a bone scan for the overall horse or just sections of the horse and is it the same sort of MRI pricing ,?

It can either be for sections or for whole horse.
From when I had one done for Reeco it was about £2k for a section or £2.8k for whole horse.