Horse being hit around the head

[Judgemental]

What else can one expect when the Chief Executive of The Master's of Foxhounds, Mark Hankinson has been convicted of aiding and abetting illegal hunting. Entirely the wrong class of person now supports hunting, whether it be trail or illegal. This lady from Melton Mowbray needs to have her horses seized. Clearly, she is 'frustrated' one way or another.

 

[palo1]

The nuisance is in the publishing of the photo and the intent behind it.

The abuse incident aside, if I was the mother of that child I would be doing my utmost to have my child’s image removed and would be using every legal route possible to do so

I know the conversation has moved on but I was, as others, very upset about the impact on the child in the video. Even more so when I remembered this prosecution earlier this year:-

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman....-hoard-of-child-rape-and-murder-films-3205103

Neil Hansen, who was also jailed in the 1990's for explosives offences, led the National Anti-Hunt campaign as well as being a member of the Animal Liberation Front.

His sentence this year was to be placed under an Offenders Supervision Order for 3 years and to be placed on the Sex Offenders register.

Now I know that as a pro-legal hunting person I will be accused of digging the dirt on sabs/antis in order to deflect from this incident but I do think this is relevant. This man was accepted by the anti-hunt community for a long time and has only recently been convicted of this crime. I am certain that this would be a rare crime in any circles but surely, after this conviction most sab groups would have done their due diligence and made sure that this would not be an issue raised by anyone - like me, for example.

Neil Hansen was not ripped to shreds by a social media frenzy. I wonder how sab groups managed and distanced themselves from this individual; hunting could possibly learn from that...

 

[ecb89]

The email address of her school is being given out several times on a different forum, asking people to email in and express their disgust

 

[cauda equina]

I think those of you who are saying hunting has had it now overestimate the memory length and outrage quota of 99% of the British public and underestimate the tenacity of people who take part in a sport which has had many brickbats thrown at it over the years (many deservedly).
It will be forgotten in a week or two.

I don't think it will
Hankinson+NT+this and chuck in some non-specific Tory hating (a fair number of comments on CP's Twitter said 'And I bet she votes tory!' or wtte) and I think this is a critical mass, even if hunting people can manage to stop doing stupid things

 

[Miss_Millie]

Not so long ago there were posts on here decrying the way an Olympic coach punched her horse in the modern pentathlon. I just went back to check if anyone here had suggested it was "very minor animal abuse" that wouldn't even be worth investigating had there been no cameras to see, expressed concern that the coach was being pushed to the point of suicidality by the press, or suggested that it was all the fault of people who object to equestrian sports for engineering the situation. There don't appear to be any posts like that. Not one.

Perhaps people will try to tell me that punching the flank of an Olympic horse is worse than hitting your horse about the head when he doesn't load or using the hard end of the whip on him, but I doubt for a second that anyone here would believe that. It's more that some people are very invested in hunting's image, in a way they're not invested in the modern pentathlon, and this is why the discussion keeps moving onto the need for "better PR" as though that's the real serious issue here.

I think you make a very good point there. The way that the woman punched the horse in the face was imo much more aggressive and forceful than the trainer hitting Saint Boy on the flank. Both incidents are awful but in this case, she was holding the horse tightly so she could kick and hit him and he couldn't get away. I can't fathom how anyone could think that is acceptable behaviour.

I do know what others are saying about the social media storm getting out of hand, though. If she gets dismissed from her job it will be because this went viral and it's going to reflect badly on the school if they keep her on. Also because I imagine, many parents will complain and say that they don't want an animal abuser teaching their children.

Someone upthread mentioned that no-one had sympathy for the man who punched the police horse in the face, everyone was enraged over that incident and were not worrying over whether his mental health would be affected by it going viral. I can't help but wonder if some people are being a bit soft/biased because she is a middle class white woman. And I say that as a middle class white woman myself. If she was a Romanian traveller, would people still be feeling sorry for her?

But to clarify, I too am concerned for the young girl involved and do not think that this woman deserves to be threatened or to feel unsafe, which I'm sure she does at this time. That is not right at all. It's a double edged sword because if this wasn't filmed and it didn't go viral, she would most likely continue to go about beating her horses. It does send out a clear message that animal abuse is not tolerated in this country, and if people do just as bad at shows as many say, maybe this will make them think twice. That being said, the level of hype this has received may have put the woman's safety in danger, and that is not on, even though what she did was very bad.

 

[cauda equina]

I don't think anyone here has said that what she did was acceptable

Once the incident had been filmed, it didn't need to go viral
It could have been passed on to the police and RSPCA to be dealt with according to the law
The sm pile on is completely unnecessary

 

[Backtoblack]

the incident with photos is headlining the Daily Mail online at the moment. I hope they throw the book at her.Poorpoor pony.

 

[ester]

Re. would it have got to court had it not gone viral I think the most recent other example would have been the welsh girls whipping the pony which also went viral, they got pretty heavy sanctions (suspended sentences, banned from keeping animals for 8 years and 120 h unpaid work. )

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/teenage-girl-who-shown-whipping-12688214

 

[Sossigpoker]

You are very lucky if you haven't seen any of the stuff about Harry Evans which is in a completely different league to this and is still very much ongoing. I wish I could be sure he could never come near any animal again as I am haunted by the images. It didn't make any mainstream media and he is still buying and selling horses. I don't support this woman but there are VERY much worse things going on.

Just because Harry Evans hasn't made the mainstream media doesn't mean other acts of abuse don't get exposed.
The media will pick up items that will sell papers- I'm sure if Harry Evans was filmed doing what he does out hunting , at a village fayre , outside Buckingham Palace or anywhere else that's likely to raise the public interest, he would be exposed. Which he very much deserved.
There's no major or minor violence, there's just violence all perpetrators deserve what's coming to them.

 

[Sossigpoker]

The email address of her school is being given out several times on a different forum, asking people to email in and express their disgust

More than happy to do that !

 

[cauda equina]

'all perpetrators deserve what's coming to them'
Doesn't that depend on what it is that's coming?
Should the punishment not fit the crime?

 

[Rowreach]

More than happy to do that !

Why? What on earth has it got to do with you?

If you committed some misdemeanor, entirely unrelated to your employment, would you think it reasonable for SM/the national media to publish personal details about you and encourage the general public to lobby your employer and get you sacked?

 

[stormox]

OK - It was unnecessary pointless and served no useful purpose. But it was filmed - and that's the problem here. we can all be paparazzi judge and hangman on social media. Does it mean she is a cruel person who regularly beats horses? We don't know.
How many of us ride with whips? Spurs? Are we cruel?
There is real cruelty in the horse world. Why don't people film yearlings being whipped while pulling huge men on sulkies? Show jumping dealers rapping horses at sales?
The reason is snobbery - anti- hunt (legal or not) discrimination.

 

[TPO]

OK - It was unnecessary pointless and served no useful purpose. But it was filmed - and that's the problem here. we can all be paparazzi judge and hangman on social media. Does it mean she is a cruel person who regularly beats horses? We don't know.
How many of us ride with whips? Spurs? Are we cruel?
There is real cruelty in the horse world. Why don't people film yearlings being whipped while pulling huge men on sulkies? Show jumping dealers rapping horses at sales?
The reason is snobbery - anti- hunt (legal or not) discrimination.

I was in agreement until you said snobbery. That just belittles everything else you've written.

The reason is she was filmed beating up a horse with no cause at all. The film was then shared. It has nothing to do with her presumed "class" and everything to do with her behaviour.

Heck even the tory loving DM readers have managed to tear her to shreds without mentioning social class at all. Where's their snobbery?

 

[Shilasdair]

'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone at her'.

Wouldn't be me.

 

[YorksG]

I am astonished that people are virtually shrugging their shoulders about a man convicted of holding indecent images of children, while celebrating the wrecking of this woman's life!

 

[Rowreach]

Re the Modern Pentathlon comparison, I was perfectly happy to sign the petition asking the governing body to make long needed changes to the equestrian element of the sport, based on decades of waiting for them to put their house in order.

Somewhat different to attempting to destroy the lives and livelihoods of the people involved, as many of you are advocating here.

 

[PapaverFollis]

Of course there is major and minor violence. ?

God I'm glad this forum is full of veritable angels who neversomuch as give their horses side-eye. It must be amazing to be surrounded by sparkles and rainbows and the singing of the Heavenly Host at all times.

 

[palo1]

In this particular instance, especially because of what I have posted above, the filming and the continued filming by sabs of children post the Hansen conviction is really very concerning; not only because of the desire to create a social media hate-storm and witch hunt of adults involved in hunting (legal or otherwise) but also because of the issues around what actually happens to images collected by sabs.

Children who may be filmed now may find in years to come that those images are used against them in all manner of ways. Whilst hitting a horse is unacceptable, the collection of images of children really is vile and potentially very dangerous. I have not seen how the anti-hunt movement have distanced themselves from Hansen but it makes my blood run cold to think that he was still active in anti-hunt circles when my own son was filmed by sabs (in 2018 I think). I had no way of identifying those sab individuals (due to masks) and no idea what they may have done with those images.

In Germany at least there has been a move against anti-hunt hate crime (and hunting with hounds has been illegal since Hitler banned it there) online. Hate speech (such as this is) and inappropriate filming for that purpose needs to be addressed as much as the issues within hunting and other field sports.

 

[palo1]

I am astonished that people are virtually shrugging their shoulders about a man convicted of holding indecent images of children, while celebrating the wrecking of this woman's life!

Not just indecent...far, far more distressing; he was particularly interested in child rape and murder and was a leading light in the anti-hunt movement. I am astounded that the sabs managed to keep a lid on that as well as the fact that no-one seems bothered, in that context, that sabs are still filming children.

 

[shortstuff99]

People do have their lives ruined for other issues too, there was recently an university lecturer who ended up quitting her job after a campaign from certain students because they didn't agree with her feminist views. She wasn't breaking the law, this is how the modern world unfortunately works now.

 

[smolmaus]

OK - It was unnecessary pointless and served no useful purpose. But it was filmed - and that's the problem here. we can all be paparazzi judge and hangman on social media. Does it mean she is a cruel person who regularly beats horses? We don't know.
How many of us ride with whips? Spurs? Are we cruel?
There is real cruelty in the horse world. Why don't people film yearlings being whipped while pulling huge men on sulkies? Show jumping dealers rapping horses at sales?
The reason is snobbery - anti- hunt (legal or not) discrimination.

People do film foals being raced in sulkies. There is social media outrage. The difference is that the people doing that don't receive the same social consequences for being filmed, in their social circles it is acceptable. And they are unlikely to have a job that requires them to conduct themselves to a certain standard in public.

I am astonished that people are virtually shrugging their shoulders about a man convicted of holding indecent images of children, while celebrating the wrecking of this woman's life!

I really don't see how it's related at all except through a very tenuous "sabs were involved and also sabs filmed this". He has been convicted though, so surely the right thing has already been done? He's not just facing social consequences but presumably legal ones that will actually follow him around for the rest of his life. I dunno, the fact that this has anything to do with hunting makes no difference to my opinions, I have no dogs in that fight, so I'm finding it hard to see how the two things are in any way related to each other.

In this particular instance, especially because of what I have posted above, the filming and the continued filming by sabs of children post the Hansen conviction is really very concerning; not only because of the desire to create a social media hate-storm and witch hunt of adults involved in hunting (legal or otherwise) but also because of the issues around what actually happens to images collected by sabs.

Children who may be filmed now may find in years to come that those images are used against them in all manner of ways. Whilst hitting a horse is unacceptable, the collection of images of children really is vile and potentially very dangerous. I have not seen how the anti-hunt movement have distanced themselves from Hansen but it makes my blood run cold to think that he was still active in anti-hunt circles when my own son was filmed by sabs (in 2018 I think). I had no way of identifying those sab individuals (due to masks) and no idea what they may have done with those images.

In Germany at least there has been a move against anti-hunt hate crime (and hunting with hounds has been illegal since Hitler banned it there) online. Hate speech (such as this is) and inappropriate filming for that purpose needs to be addressed as much as the issues within hunting and other field sports.

I don't think a candid image of a child in the background of a video clearly focusing on something else is the same as someone collecting actual indecent images of children and I think it is incredibly disingenuous to try and connect them.

This thread has gone really weird places.

 

[mustardsmum]

If you beat an animal, another person, a child - there is no difference, it is abusive behaviour. It doesn’t matter that a sab filmed her - she behaved like this in a public place. Anyone with a phone could have recorded this and if I had been sat there in a car, I would have done the same. I may not have posted it on social media but I would have reported it. This is not a hunting issue, this is animal abuse, now with a worrying question regarding safeguarding implications as if she is involved with children, this sort of behaviour is not acceptable.

Trial by social media isn’t a new phenomenon and can even be useful in identifying people who would otherwise go through their lives behaving in ways most of us find unacceptable and not being held accountable for their actions. The problem is when people identify the wrong person which has sadly happened here - how that is dealt with I am not sure. But let’s all be honest here - most people looked on in horror at the girl who beat her tied up pony, the dealer who beats horses and the woman who let her horse compete when its condition was appalling. We threw our hands up at the behaviour of the trainers and some riders in the modern pentathlon. But because this lady represents a group (hunting) that some people here identify with, they find excuses for her behaviour.

All that matters is this woman kicked and then punched and slapped the horse in the head multiple times. A horse that someone dropped the lead rein on, so it wandered round the box to its friend. It didn’t try and bolt off, it wasn’t playing up. She created this situation the moment she picked up up the lead rope and made the first kick, and will face the consequences. We all have choices to make each day and frankly, her choice was a poor one.

 

[Gallop_Away]

Have you seen what sabs and frankly even a lot of normal people say about hunters? They could not care less if something terrible was to happen to her. In their mind they deserve it as karma for hunting (and being 'posh').

I'm not a fun of fox hunting and I don't think it is nice to foxes, but I do drag hunting and I don't think people deserve this sort of hate.

Yes sadly I have ? Not sure if you know about the woman who was caught on camera whipping a sab around the head while he grabbed at her horse? (apparently herself and a young rider and had been separated from the field and sabs had surrounded them - not sure if this is true but anyway).
The woman tragically died in a riding accident a few months later. The sneering nasty vile comments on sabs fb pages gleefully celebrating her death. It was horrid to see.

 

[southerncomfort]

Just want to make clear that while I think what she did was vile, and think that the double standards on here are laughable (wonder how many indulging in whataboutery had a lot to say about that Linda Parelli video), I absolutely condemn the social media attempts to destroy this woman, her career and her family. It is horrific and needs to stop.

And yes, I do think CP is at least partially responsible and I've no doubt the reaction is exactly what he was hoping for.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

I haven’t read the whole thread but my thoughts on the original content.

She lost her temper. She shouldn’t have but we all do. She just had the unfortunate timing to have been filmed for it. Hitting a horse about the head is not acceptable.

However I have used a pressure and release technique for problem loaders that involves moving the horse backwards off the ramp when they plant sometimes with the end of a leadrope always the chest. Is it me beating the horse, no it’s not, so could I lambast this woman? Definitely not as I’ve swung a leadrope at a horse, I have lost my temper and felt like crap afterwards, everyone has, we are human. It’s why I don’t work with a horse if I’ve had a bad day as I might feel fine one minute but upset the next. I am very aware also due to my ptsd that things can change from one minute to the next without me being in control of the rapid shift in brain activity. Does it make me a horrible person no it doesn’t, does it make me unsafe no it doesn’t it just means I have to have more thought and awareness and plan ahead for my triggers.

Also what I find interesting is them videoing loading, this I find tends to be the point that most tempers fray when you have had a tiring day and the horse refuses to load. They have chosen to be there, knowing full well someone’s horse may not load and someone may have a moment. Not acceptable in any shape of form for what has occurred but it happens. It was no accident these people were filming the horse lorry. However this person will now pay the price for a moment of being human.

I’d love to have cameras on the few saints in the ranks who never behave in anyway unacceptable. Would probably me more interesting than these ‘reality’ shows we get adverts for shoved in our faces in every platform ?

 

[Shilasdair]

The quality of mercy is not strained;
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath. It is twice blest;
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes:
'T is mightiest in the mightiest; it becomes
The throned monarch better than his crown:
His sceptre shows the force of temporal power,
The attribute to awe and majesty,
Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings;
But mercy is above this sceptred sway;
It is enthronèd in the hearts of kings,
It is an attribute to God himself;
And earthly power doth then show likest God's
When mercy seasons justice.

 

[DrSeuss]

I really don't see how it's related at all except through a very tenuous "sabs were involved and also sabs filmed this". He has been convicted though, so surely the right thing has already been done? He's not just facing social consequences but presumably legal ones that will actually follow him around for the rest of his life. I dunno, the fact that this has anything to do with hunting makes no difference to my opinions, I have no dogs in that fight, so I'm finding it hard to see how the two things are in any way related to each other
I don't think a candid image of a child in the background of a video clearly focusing on something else is the same as someone collecting actual indecent images of children and I think it is incredibly disingenuous to try and connect them.

This thread has gone really weird places.

The disingenuousness is staggering. The same users who are aghast at the admittedly tenuous suggestion that a woman who hits a horse might also hit children are quite happy with the idea that a sab taking photos in a public setting in which fully clothed children appear might be up to something sinister, on the basis that a completely different sab was a criminal who participated in child abuse. What?

Hunt supporters are really scraping the bottom of the barrel in order to turn a criticism of horse-beating into a criticism of sabs. We've had suggestions that the sabs framed the woman and provoked the whole incident, that the hunt ought really to be praised because the fact the sabs filmed an "unrelated matter" shows they hunt within the law (?!), and now the insinuation that they sabs involved in paedophilia. Oh, not to speak of the idea that this could have happened to anyone, and any rider upset about the incident is being holier-than-thou and rides about with a halo. While those who say this might not be OK with hitting horses, it seems that they find bad publicity for a hunt to be a far greater concern, otherwise they wouldn't be resorting to this.

 

[Dizzy socks]

People do have their lives ruined for other issues too, there was recently an university lecturer who ended up quitting her job after a campaign from certain students because they didn't agree with her feminist views. She wasn't breaking the law, this is how the modern world unfortunately works now.

If we’re talking about the same person, I think just describing her views as feminist omits some fairly crucial details. I’m against people being hounded, but equally I don’t think that people necessarily deserve a platform, or to keep their jobs if a majority of students don’t think their values align with the university. There’s a difference between having views and disagreement, and actively campaigning for the removal/reduction of the rights of a group of people.

Maybe we’re talking about different people though.

 

[Miss_Millie]

If you beat an animal, another person, a child - there is no difference, it is abusive behaviour. It doesn’t matter that a sab filmed her - she behaved like this in a public place. Anyone with a phone could have recorded this and if I had been sat there in a car, I would have done the same. I may not have posted it on social media but I would have reported it. This is not a hunting issue, this is animal abuse, now with a worrying question regarding safeguarding implications as if she is involved with children, this sort of behaviour is not acceptable.

Trial by social media isn’t a new phenomenon and can even be useful in identifying people who would otherwise go through their lives behaving in ways most of us find unacceptable and not being held accountable for their actions. The problem is when people identify the wrong person which has sadly happened here - how that is dealt with I am not sure. But let’s all be honest here - most people looked on in horror at the girl who beat her tied up pony, the dealer who beats horses and the woman who let her horse compete when its condition was appalling. We threw our hands up at the behaviour of the trainers and some riders in the modern pentathlon. But because this lady represents a group (hunting) that some people here identify with, they find excuses for her behaviour.

All that matters is this woman kicked and then punched and slapped the horse in the head multiple times. A horse that someone dropped the lead rein on, so it wandered round the box to its friend. It didn’t try and bolt off, it wasn’t playing up. She created this situation the moment she picked up up the lead rope and made the first kick, and will face the consequences. We all have choices to make each day and frankly, her choice was a poor one.

Well said. I am against illegal hunting, but the fact that this woman was part of a hunt (whether legal or illegal) is irrelevant to me. If she was a dealer, a traveller, a top show jumper or the Queen herself, I would have not felt any differently about the video. Reminds me strongly of an instructor at my childhood riding school, who once jumped on a kid's pony to 'teach it a lesson', and consequently beat the crap out of it. That particular incident is ingrained in my brain forever, we all just sat on our ponies and watched in horror, very much in disbelief at what we were witnessing. People like that have no business working with horses or with children.